Spay Alternatives

[davecol]

Hi. I'm hoping for some advice about spaying or alternatives to it.

We have a female lab, 6 months old. We are torn about what to do.

I see all animals as persons, and she is a family member. I'm done having kids but I'm not going to get castrated. And I won't be giving my human daughter a radical hyserectomy, even if research shows some statistical risk reductions for certain diseases ... many of the problems we would all see with that, I see applying to some degree to dogs. It's a deeply invasive surgical procedure and it would permanently and profoundly alter her inner world by affecting her hormones.

BUT of course we need to be practical. We don't want pups. We don't want roaming male dogs jumping the fence (she is an inside dog but of course spends a lot of time outside. One side of the fence is only 4 foot high though maybe this needs to change.) We're not sure how difficult or inconvenient it is to manage an entire female during heat cycles. We have no experience to help with any of these things. This is our first time with a dog.

So maybe that means we should just spay. Or maybe we should try to find a vet that will do an ovary-sparing spay or a tubal ligation. Or maybe we should leave her entire.

What I'm hoping for is more information on those pratical considerations to help me weigh them up. Or direct advice on what to do, but advice that is not dismissive of where we are coming from philosophically (which is why I'm not going to bother asking the vet...)

Thanks in advance!

[Kavik]

I would wait until she is fully grown and then desex. Males are easier to leave entire in my opinion, girls are a bit trickier.

You may find a vet that is willing to do a tubal ligation, but it will probably take some convincing on your part.

One of the big risks of leaving a bitch entire is pyometra - infection of the uterus. This is very dangerous, and generally requires a spey to fix it, it can be life threatening.

Some bitches have temperament changes when in season.

Seasons are messy, last around 3 weeks and most come into season twice a year.

I would certainly have higher than 4 foot fences if you decide to leave her entire.

[LisaCC]

I too would wait until she is fully grown, and her growth plates have closed, around 18 months maybe more. She will probably have a season in this time so look at increasing your fence height or installing a run.

I've had males so haven't looked too much into the other options for females but I'd look more into an Ovary Sparing Spay, I think this removes all of the uterus, which as Kavik mentioned is your biggest issue with bitches because of Pyometra.

Your best bet might be to talk to a reproductive specialist vet about options. Don't discount all vets, some are quite open to the current research and would be happy to discuss things like this

Hopefully someone here might be able to point you to one in your area.

Edited May 21, 2015 by LisaCC

[persephone]

Lots of thinking - just remember - she is NOT a person .

A four foot fence is inadequate for most dogs - let alone a bitch in season ( yes, the females will go where the urge takes them!)

Speying ,after a bitch has grown up is a way of keeping pet management easier/stopping surplus pups/removing any chance of pyometra /ovarian cancer .

A bitch in season cannot be walked anywhere around your house - as dogs will follow the scent home!

Bitches pee extra- in advertising their status .

they often have temperament changes during a season ...

they can have a phantom pregnancy afterwards

For 3 weeks you will have a bitch who might smell more than usual , who will pee little bits everywhere ..who may drip a bloody fluid ... who will attract the attention of neighbourhood dogs (and bitches)

Tubal ligation means she will still have seasons/be attractive etc etc - just won't get pregnant ...

To manage a lab in season - ideally she would be a good inside dog - in a secure room with no low windows that could be jumped through!

A secure outdoor run is a wonderful thing - concrete floor /wire mesh walls and roof ..with a shelter . Takes away all the worry if you are at work or whatever ...

You are a good owner in thinking things thru :)

[davecol]

Thank you for the replies so far - chewing them over.

Just to clarify. I am using the word "person" in a different sense than most people would be used to. Don't worry, I don't see her as a dog-shaped human. But she, like all animals, has a subjective experience of life, has agency, intentionality, sentience, emotionality, etc, in ways that are to be sure quite different to how our own experience as humans, and mostly unknowable to us, but which are real nonetheless. (A link for anyone up for a bit of philosophy!)

[persephone]

thanks for the explanation :) I know what you mean ....

[Dame Aussie]

I have an entire female for many of the same reasons you mention and haven't experienced any of the issues that are said to come with that. No escaping, no smell, literally no mess but I might just be lucky in that she is very clean, no dogs getting to her as she is always contained when in season, no temperament change etc. No issues at all, again maybe I'm just lucky? She's the first entire dog I've had so that's a possibility.

However, if you have any concerns about being able to keep her contained during her season or other dogs getting to her, then desexing is probably the best option. I would only keep a female in season either in a run or inside, not in the yard unattended and 4 foot fences will be too low.

I feel your frustration with vets as I've not found one yet that I could have a proper conversation with about this. It's just desex desex desex. Which is probably the best option for many pet owners, but if I can manage an entire dog I don't see why I should put them through major surgery and remove their natural hormones for my convenience. This is also not judging owners that desex as there are pros there also, I.e. avoiding pyo and mammary cancer, but what I wish vets would admit and discuss is that there are also cons associated with other cancers and things like spey incontinence. I need to find one of these vets dammit!

Edited May 21, 2015 by Dame Aussie

[VizslaMomma]

Thank you for the replies so far - chewing them over.

Just to clarify. I am using the word "person" in a different sense than most people would be used to. Don't worry, I don't see her as a dog-shaped human. But she, like all animals, has a subjective experience of life, has agency, intentionality, sentience, emotionality, etc, in ways that are to be sure quite different to how our own experience as humans, and mostly unknowable to us, but which are real nonetheless. (A link for anyone up for a bit of philosophy!)

My ZsaZsa was kept entire as I breed from her. That meant we ran a rather tight ship in controlling & containing HER conduct. It meant being totally aware as to where 'she' was in term of a reproductive cycle.

I spoke to my Vet in great length about the options for & against having her spayed. We were really lucky that she maintained great health during her prime reproductive years. We also managed to refrain the enitre male of the home from mating. He simply was never interested until the actual need for them to tie.

At 6 years, we were lucky enough to have a tubual ligation done for her. She enjoyed 6 more years of life, and gave us her heart & soul.

eta: Seems to me NSW Vets are a bit more liberal with their thinking?

Edited May 21, 2015 by VizslaMomma

[Rebanne]

be very aware that dogs can and do mate with a mesh fence between them so any run you build needs to have solid sides or very small holes so mating can't take place. Also keep in mind that injuries can and do occur during the mating process so you need to be very, very sure that your bitch can not get to, or be got at, by a dog when you are not there. The drive to breed is very strong. Bitches will seek out males just as much as males seek out females. In saying that, I live in suburbia and have had several entire bitches over the years and never had any drama's.

[suziwong66]

our 8 month old lab bitch went into her first season today; i had been noticing changes of behaviour of both her and her 1/2 brother who is nearly 4 and desexed over the past week. My hunch was correct and she had her first show of blood today. This past week, she's been scatty, jumps a lot more (something we've been working on a lot), not listening to commands of sit and drop to well and way more vocal and somewhat more needy of cuddles. Added to that she has been shoving her back end into our boy's face, laying on her back with her legs spread and inviting him to lick her vulva and he's been air humping around her. They're both like horny teenagers. One big very odd thing happened as well, she peed inside on their beds one night while we were all watching tv; she's never had an accident like that before.

She, won't be spayed until she is at least 2 years old - we allow our labs to reach full maturity before we desex. Our vet, supports our choice and knows that we are responsible dog owners that will not allow our dogs to roam or our bitch come into contact with other dogs while she's in season.

I am a firm believer that it's better to allow large breed dogs to reach full maturity before desexing/spaying occurs - especially if you are considering any type of dog sports; they will benefit the added bone density development that comes from the hormones of sexual maturity.

Edited May 21, 2015 by suziwong66

[_PL_]

First time dog owner!

IMHO Desex. :)

No offence but this is your first dog, you aren't going to breed from her and even experienced owners can have accidents. It happens that fast.

Let her grow some more if you prefer, as long as you can absolutely guarantee she will be safe. You may need to crate her if you can't manage.

And whatever you do in the end, please please at least get rid of her uterus. Pyometra is a killer.

Philosophically speaking, yes dogs are amazing souls with a lot more going on than we can yet understand.

But I only have desexed pets (and desex every single rescue dog) and I don't believe they have ever for one moment pondered the ways it has changed their lives or feel like something is missing. Nor do I believe they are missing out on life by not going through phases of desperately wanting to mate and the frustrations of not being able to; because we as humans have control over their lives in every aspect. They never really progress mentally past the toddler age of human thought so what a good owner does is do some thinking for them, control situations or curb instincts and wants (call it agency) that are potentially harmful or risky. I don't mean purely regarding the desexing topic.

Aussie you are so lucky! :laugh: girls in season drive me mad. I get the suziwong circus. LOL Lucky it never happens a 2nd time. ;-)

[Dame Aussie]

I know! I hear all these things and think geez I must have fluked it :laugh:

[Airedaler]

I must have flued it as well.

For over 40 years I have had entire bitches and at times an entire male as well. A decent run and dogs crated inside

has been how I have managed the times the bitches are in season. I have never had pyo or any other reproductive issues and I only have 4 foot wire fences surrounding the property.

[FHRP]

If you can commit to containing and managing your girl for 3-4 weeks every 6 months or so then you could consider leaving her entire. I have entire dogs and bitches and it's the boys that drive me insane when the bitch is in season, if I only had the bitch then it would be little more than a mild inconvenience and I don't consider that a fluke. The risks of roaming dogs and determined bitches has some truth, however it has never been an issue for me by using some basic common sense management. A crate or pen inside when in season and unsupervised is the way to go IMO. I wouldn't trust any fence with an unsupervised bitch in full season.

You could let your girl have a season and see how you all cope. There will probably be some mess and there could be temperament/behaviour changes. You can decide if you're comfortable with managing her seasons in future, and have a few months to decide on spaying before her next season. Ovary sparing surgery and tubal ligation will keep hormones and prevent pregnancy but won't stop her seasons and they are still invasive surgeries if that's really a concern. You would still have to manage her seasons as the boy dogs will be attracted and relentles if she's taken in public. If you are concerned about your ability of keeping her secure then they are an option, however in that case I'd personally just wait until she's fully grown and have her desexed.

[RuralPug]

If you want to wait until she is fully grown before she is desexed, then you will have to plan for probably two seasons, depending on the breed. A tubal ligation will prevent preganancy but will not prevent seasons - so you will still need to protect againt visiting males and her escaping (driven by hormones) to look for males.

I have known people who send their entire bitches to kennels for a few weeks when they are in season, (if the kennel has facilities - some don't have separate season or quarantine areas and it can drive the other inmates nuts!) you would have to choose a very hygenic kennel, bitches on heat are susceptible to picking up nasty bugs, not all boarding kennels would be suitable at all.

If she is going to be left at home without human supervision during the day, then you absolutely MUST have really secure and safe quarters for her. With 4ft fences you are quite likely going to have suitors leaping into your yard sniffing where she has peed and howling for her. Either indoors in a bathroom or laundry (rooms which usually have only small windows) or in a concrete-floored, roofed dog run with fencing too small for a penis to penetrate (bitches can and will back up to normal chain link fencing to allow penetration).

Friends of my family with a working breed female made a temporary secure run out of their carport (which had a colorbond fence on one side which they had increased to 8ft with lattice and the house and garage on two other sides) by hiring 6ft high fence panels (the sort that you see around building sites) and putting two rows of them to close off the carport. It did mean that for three weeks every six months they couldn't park out of the weather LOL but it kept her very secure!

There are progesterone injections that you can use to delay a season if it comes at a really bad time and you can't protect your girl, but these should only ever be used quite sparingly as the side effects can sometimes be nasty. Talk with your vet well in advance if you are thinking of using these.

[Kirislin]

I've had 4 entire bitches and I've never had entire males hanging around. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's never been a problem here. That said, I was careful and observant to make sure none did turn up. I have one entire bitch now, and her last season turned out to be a bit of a worry because my 2 neutered males of a much bigger breed started showing interest in her because she was flaunting herself at them. That became a bit stressful as I feared the boys might start fighting each other and/or injure her if they mated with her.

[persephone]

our bitches are entire ..and season time is such a juggling act ! the boys howl ..the girls howl ... and that's just one joy .

[superminty]

I have my first entire bitch and am lucky enough to have an open minded vet who is willing to discuss all alternatives. He has no concerns with me keeping her entire, but suggested I consider spaying later in life i.e. 7-8 years as studies show that older bitches are more likely to present with pyometra than younger bitches. I've had no issues with managing her while she is in season to date and haven't had any dogs hanging around. I do have 6 foot colorbond fencing, and a secure dog run for her though.

[Jumabaar]

Here are some articles I wrote regarding desexing. The first one is when the next one is how.

http://www.primalpaws.com/primal-paws/2014/09/when-to-desex-dogs

http://www.primalpaws.com/primal-paws/2014/09/how-to-desex-your-dog

I have had entire girls for 10 years- 1 accident (well on purpose on their part) a 7 weeks after she first started bleeding) but used an injection to stop the pregnancy. This all while having 2 entire males and up to 8 girls on the property.

If you are responsible and realistic- that dogs will be dogs then it is possible to survive with an entire bitch and not have puppies. So I don't really view population control as a reason to desex for responsible owners in the right living situation because they can stop that from happening. i.e. my 90yr old grandmother doesn't look after my girls when they are in season because she leaves them out the back unsupervised, but the remaining weeks and months of the year she does mind them regularly. If I didn't have the opportunity to take the girls when they were in season they would be desexed.

From a health perspective there are pro's and con's to desexing and age of desexing. Cancer- some cancers have decreased risk with desexing, some are increased in risk, Orthopaedic conditions- hip dysplasia, cruciate ligament disease. Behaviour- studies indicating that there are more behavioural problems in desexed animals than entire animals. Then there is pyometra- and ultimately this is the reason I spey my girls at approx. 5yrs of age so I avoid this issue in older dogs.

So it is a personal choice and I applaud people who ask this question and go searching for answers. Ultimately as long as you are confident and have a complete understanding of the issues I don't actually believe there is a right or wrong decision about desexing and when to do so. Spend the time to research- understand that not all information is equal (i.e. dogs naturally is not a great source of information generally) and work out what is the best decision for your household and dog.

ETA- My girls are inside the house when in season or supervised out the back even with 7ft fencing.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Jumabaar