Colour Not To Standard?

[Dame Aussie]

So dramatic :laugh:

As I said "if there are no associated health concerns"...so don't know why you're comparing it with changing the actual form as obviously that would have further effects on the function and health of the dog.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Dame Aussie

[Salukifan]

So dramatic :laugh:

So dismissive.

[Kavik]

What about the BCs though? Colours that are allowed in other countries, but not here for some reason? And Kelpies, colours that occur in working Kelpies and have from the beginning, but not included in the standard?

[Salukifan]

What about the BCs though? Colours that are allowed in other countries, but not here for some reason? And Kelpies, colours that occur in working Kelpies and have from the beginning, but not included in the standard?

Again, we need to answer the WHY.

And if necessary CHANGE the breed standard. It does happen.

Far better than blowing it off because you don't personally agree with it.

.

[Dame Aussie]

But that's exactly what I was saying? In circumstances like kavik mentioned, where there is no difference to the dog why not consider it?

Better than just saying "NO" because its always been this way.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Dame Aussie

[Salukifan]

But that's exactly what I was saying? In circumstances like kavik mentioned, where there is no difference to the dog why not consider it?

It happens. I can think of breed standards that have been changed to include some colours but not others.

But that is a process that is worked through. Lots of consultation and generally that includes overseas folks. Not someone deciding based on a gut instinct that they know better.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[espinay2]

In Pyreneans, black to the root is specifically excluded and has been right from the very first standards which were developed in conjunction with the shepherds who used the dogs. It was excluded as it was considered a clear sign of crossbreeding which brought with it behaviour traits that were very much unwanted. In a livestock guardian, crossbreeding with higher prey drive breeds creats a dog totally useless for its role. Colour can be vitally important in what it tells us because of the traits that may very likely accompany it.

[Simply Grand]

I find it hard to understand why in this thread people are saying that it isn't ok to dismiss colour or any other rulings in the standard because it doesn't suit the generic 'you' yet in another thread asking for advice on how to get around the issue of blemishes and the rules about them in the show ring it seems to be acceptable to break those rules. Presumably there is a reason somewhere behind those rules too so why is one ok and not the other?

Edited May 10, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Salukifan]

I find it hard to understand why in this thread people are saying that it isn't ok to dismiss colour or any other rulings in the standard because it doesn't suit the generic 'you' yet in another thread asking for advice on how to get around the issue of blemishes and the rules about them in the show ring it seems to be acceptable to break those rules. Presumably there is a reason somewhere behind those rules too so why is one ok and not the other?

Masking a blemish like a scar isn't changing a dog's colour. Doing that is very clearly against the rules of exhibition.

[Simply Grand]

So is it not against the rules to cover something up using shoe polish or a Cris Stik? It seems to be being said in the other thread that it is, but maybe not.

ETA And according to Dogs NSW Show regulations:

14.3 A dog shall be disqualified from winning a prize at a Show held under the Regulations if a Show Committee is satisfied that:-

(i) any dye, colouring, whitening or darkening matter, or preparation, has been used and if the effect of it remains at any time during the Show;

(ii) any oil, grease, sticky or glossy substances have been used and if the effect of it remains on the coat of the dog at any time during the Show;

http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/upload/documents/Part%2002%20Show.pdf

Edited May 10, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Stressmagnet]

I must admit - I've been catching a whiff of hypocrisy too.

That is, of course, assuming that the SAME folks are commenting on BOTH threads - which I cannot be bothered to check. If not, ignore this comment please.

[sandgrubber]

Personally, I think it was a mistake to split retrievers up by color way back when (somewhere around 1910). Flatcoat health, particularly cancer risk, is a concern, and the population is small enough that it may be difficult to breed away from the health concerns.

The whole practice of breeding for solid colors was some silly 19th century notion of purity. Too bad it made it into so many standards.

For some discussion of the origins of yellow in flatcoat lines . . . .

http://retrieverman.net/2008/12/12/sewallis-evelyn-shirley-and-some-flat-coated-retriever-history/

[raineth]

In Danes the colours and patterns outlined in the standard come at a price. You can see it clearly in the differences in quality of dogs with particular patterns. Because producing some of these patterns is complicated and restricts the choices of what dogs can be bred, a Dane of the wrong colour/pattern won't be able to be bred even though it might be superior in conformation, health or temperament. If you wanted to breed Danes of 'incompatible' colour/pattern to improve health or conformation you will then have the challenge of producing pups with colours/patterns that can't be shown anyway and can't be bred from. It means breeders have very hard decisions to make, and sometimes I do wonder whether the breed would be better off it allowed any patterns/colours as long as they weren't detrimental to the dog.

[Kirislin]

In Danes the colours and patterns outlined in the standard come at a price. You can see it clearly in the differences in quality of dogs with particular patterns. Because producing some of these patterns is complicated and restricts the choices of what dogs can be bred, a Dane of the wrong colour/pattern won't be able to be bred even though it might be superior in conformation, health or temperament. If you wanted to breed Danes of 'incompatible' colour/pattern to improve health or conformation you will then have the challenge of producing pups with colours/patterns that can't be shown anyway and can't be bred from. It means breeders have very hard decisions to make, and sometimes I do wonder whether the breed would be better off it allowed any patterns/colours as long as they weren't detrimental to the dog.

Yes, I've wondered about this with Danes. I was very surprised when I read how they cannot be bred together because it might produce colours that aren't in the standard. I really wonder why you cant have a "Boston" marked fawn. I understand about the merle to merle but some of the other colour combos, I wonder about the reasoning.

[Stressmagnet]

In Danes the colours and patterns outlined in the standard come at a price. You can see it clearly in the differences in quality of dogs with particular patterns. Because producing some of these patterns is complicated and restricts the choices of what dogs can be bred, a Dane of the wrong colour/pattern won't be able to be bred even though it might be superior in conformation, health or temperament. If you wanted to breed Danes of 'incompatible' colour/pattern to improve health or conformation you will then have the challenge of producing pups with colours/patterns that can't be shown anyway and can't be bred from. It means breeders have very hard decisions to make, and sometimes I do wonder whether the breed would be better off it allowed any patterns/colours as long as they weren't detrimental to the dog.

Sorry to interject...

I love Danes. What colours/patterns and why?

[raineth]

In Danes the colours and patterns outlined in the standard come at a price. You can see it clearly in the differences in quality of dogs with particular patterns. Because producing some of these patterns is complicated and restricts the choices of what dogs can be bred, a Dane of the wrong colour/pattern won't be able to be bred even though it might be superior in conformation, health or temperament. If you wanted to breed Danes of 'incompatible' colour/pattern to improve health or conformation you will then have the challenge of producing pups with colours/patterns that can't be shown anyway and can't be bred from. It means breeders have very hard decisions to make, and sometimes I do wonder whether the breed would be better off it allowed any patterns/colours as long as they weren't detrimental to the dog.

Yes, I've wondered about this with Danes. I was very surprised when I read how they cannot be bred together because it might produce colours that aren't in the standard. I really wonder why you cant have a "Boston" marked fawn. I understand about the merle to merle but some of the other colour combos, I wonder about the reasoning.

Well the thing is you can breed harl to harl and come up with the same issues as breeding merle to merle. I am actually of the mind that merles should be able to be mains registered.

Danes have some really nice colours and patterns, and they are the only breed that has harlequins so I can understand why people would want to keep them. But to my mind keeping to the standard colours does cause difficulties and can interfere with the best dogs being bred.

[raineth]

In Danes the colours and patterns outlined in the standard come at a price. You can see it clearly in the differences in quality of dogs with particular patterns. Because producing some of these patterns is complicated and restricts the choices of what dogs can be bred, a Dane of the wrong colour/pattern won't be able to be bred even though it might be superior in conformation, health or temperament. If you wanted to breed Danes of 'incompatible' colour/pattern to improve health or conformation you will then have the challenge of producing pups with colours/patterns that can't be shown anyway and can't be bred from. It means breeders have very hard decisions to make, and sometimes I do wonder whether the breed would be better off it allowed any patterns/colours as long as they weren't detrimental to the dog.

Sorry to interject...

I love Danes. What colours/patterns and why?

I'll have to come back to this when I have some more time Stressy. But if you want to knock yourself out you can have a look here:

http://www.chromadane.com/index.php/en/chromalinx/89-great-dane-specific-coat-color-info

This one might more specifically answer your question :)

http://www.chromadane.com/index.php/en/chromalinx/89-great-dane-specific-coat-color-info/129-problems-associated-with-harlequin-breeding

Edited May 11, 2015 by raineth

[brintey]

What about the BCs though? Colours that are allowed in other countries, but not here for some reason? And Kelpies, colours that occur in working Kelpies and have from the beginning, but not included in the standard?

Hi Kavik,

When my family first started in pedigree border collies in NSW, only black and white and black, white and tan were in the standard. It was very rare to see the tris then, let alone any other colour. Then chocolate (bb) was allowed in and blue (dd) and the old time breeders (from the 50s and 60s) were fine with this as a few of these occasionally popped up. Only once "sable" as it was colloquially known then (ee red) started to become common in some lines and pressure was put on for them to be shown did the old time breeders really kick up a fuss, as they said the lighter shades of ee made the white markings indistinguishable, and the lighter colour overall made it hard to distinguish the dog in the flock when working the flock from a distance.

This is the only reason I have heard 'against' a particular colour in BCs. I dont know how much truth there is in this, but interestingly a lot of LGDs - who bond with flocks rather than scare them into moving - are white or earthy wolf grey colours and blend in quite well.

[Steve]

The problem isnt the standard - they are pretty much the same world wide . The problem is the limited register because dogs which dont fit the standard due to colour cant be put on the main register.

[Kavik]

This is the UK Border Collie standard - only says a variety of colours permissible and white should never predominate. UK standard also allows short coats, which Australia does not.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/standard.aspx?id=5166

Edited May 11, 2015 by Kavik