Switching 9 Week Stafford To Raw

[frankiethestaffie]

Hi guys,

New to the forum and just had a few questions about raw, more so around the prey model diet.

I'm yet to introduce ourselves, so I'd figured I do so on this post (hope this is within the rules).

So after a long couple of years waiting for the right litter, we finally have our little boy. He's currently 8 weeks and it's his fifth day with us :)

Here are a couple of snaps of him

https://500px.com/photo/107701579/weeks-()-by-frankiethestaffie

https://500px.com/photo/107701713/weeks-(carrot)-by-frankiethestaffie

He's currently on Royal Canin, and I plan to keep him on it for his first week here. Then I will make the switch to raw.

I have done a decent amount of research around this, and I plan to switch him cold turkey. I have heard that it's best starting him easy, maybe something like chicken breast until he gets used to it, however I want to incorporate bone immediately and I don't have a meat grinder. Is it OK to switch him straight onto chicken wings and necks and then moving onto bigger raw meaty bones after a couple of weeks so he doesn't choke on them? Or should I not risk this and try and find minced chicken frames?

When is it best to start including offal? I assume the time frame will depend on how he responds to the raw food.

Most of the forums and articles I've read show a percentage breakdown of RMB's, Meat and Offal; or Meat, Bone and Offal. I am a little confused about the RMB and Meat percentages and I want to ensure that I feed him the correct amount of calcium:phosphorus. I'm sure this can be identified based on stool, however would approx. 3 chicken wings and 200 grams of chicken breast or mince daily be OK for the first week at least? (split into 3 meals). After I introduce offal I will include different kinds of meats, a raw fish a week, green tripe, and yoghurt or kefir.

Sorry for all the questions! I just have the impression that everything needs to be done right, particularly with puppies as they're developing their bones and bodies.

Thanks everyone!

Matt

[persephone]

i find it can become so very very mathmatical -

I suggest you grab a cuppa or three ..and scroll thruTHIS THREAD- everything you ever wanted to know about feeding raw .

I aklso suggest you wait a little longer before going fully raw ... pups/dogs CAN eat a mix of dry & raw :)

THIS , and THIS have some good points :)

good luck

Edited May 6, 2015 by persephone

[frankiethestaffie]

Thanks for that. Haha putting the kettle on now as we speak.

Yeah I was also considering doing half raw/half kibble separately throughout the day just to ensure he gets all his nutrients. I just heard others saying it's not recommended so it threw me off a little.

Appreciate the tips!

[frankiethestaffie]

i find it can become so very very mathmatical -

I suggest you grab a cuppa or three ..and scroll thru THIS THREAD- everything you ever wanted to know about feeding raw .

I aklso suggest you wait a little longer before going fully raw ... pups/dogs CAN eat a mix of dry & raw :)

THIS , and THIS have some good points :)

good luck

hey persephone I think an incorrect link for that thread was posted.

[persephone]

i find it can become so very very mathmatical -

I suggest you grab a cuppa or three ..and scroll thru THIS THREAD- everything you ever wanted to know about feeding raw .

I aklso suggest you wait a little longer before going fully raw ... pups/dogs CAN eat a mix of dry & raw :)

THIS , and THIS have some good points :)

good luck

hey persephone I think an incorrect link for that thread was posted.

ACK - OK - check the first post again in a second :)

[frankiethestaffie]

i find it can become so very very mathmatical -

I suggest you grab a cuppa or three ..and scroll thru THIS THREAD- everything you ever wanted to know about feeding raw .

I aklso suggest you wait a little longer before going fully raw ... pups/dogs CAN eat a mix of dry & raw :)

THIS , and THIS have some good points :)

good luck

hey persephone I think an incorrect link for that thread was posted.

ACK - OK - check the first post again in a second :)

Haha cheers. Looks like a might need a few cuppa's

[Roova]

I found this chart a while back which might help?

I'm pretty sure it's good but hopefully someone will say if it isn't. :)

Edited May 6, 2015 by Roova

[Salukifan]

I would discuss this with his breeder.

IMO unless you are confident you know what you're doing, keep a decent kibble in his diet. Feed lots of RMBs and you can't go wrong.

It's not rocket science feeding raw but if you get it wrong, it can go VERY wrong for a growing pup.

[Yonjuro]

That is pretty good chart Roova Interesting that the supplements I use are listed on it ,with the exception of Spirulina :) I have saved the image to send to some people that always want to know my boys diet and this will make things a bit simpler

Edited May 6, 2015 by Yonjuro

[persephone]

is that chart for adults or pups ?

[Yonjuro]

Thats a good point Perse, My understanding is that you base the meals on the adult weight estimate, so the volume doesn't really change except when modifying for an overweight or underweight dog.

[Dogsfevr]

If i feed my dogs by those charts they would starve to death .

Word of warning don't become paranoid about ratios & weight,seen far to many owners feed what charts say & the result sick dogs that are under weight & owners who don't seem to want to adjust the ratio because everything they read says do this that.

Raw is good ,its not the be all end all & doesn't suit every dog .

Be careful with coconut oil ,i feed it but dogs can lose weight quickly at first on it until the system readjusts.

I wouldn't go cold turkey ,not far in the pup if its tummy isn't ready for the big change .

Also keep in mind i gather you liked the quality & health of the breeders dogs & where happy with what they feed.Some breeder guarantee there puppies on t he diet suggested & require consultation if being changed.

Keep your breeder involved & ask them about diet from there experience,there are foods on that chart i would never feed my breed due to it causing other issues that many people are unaware of on forums

Edited May 6, 2015 by showdog

[Salukifan]

The most important thing for a growing pup is a balanced calcium/phosphorus ratio.

If you took that chart literally and fed 80% meat and 10% RMBs, you have a major calcium deficiency on your hands. Meat on digestible bone is the go.

[Roova]

I always thought 10%ish was the aim for calcium in a raw diet? If not what should the percentage actually be?

The egg shells would provide minimum calcium along with spirulina which is high in calcium too. Can you use poo colour/consistency as an idea how your going calcium wise or is that too risky?

[Salukifan]

I always thought 10%ish was the aim for calcium in a raw diet? If not what should the percentage actually be?

The egg shells would provide minimum calcium along with spirulina which is high in calcium too. Can you use poo colour/consistency as an idea how your going calcium wise or is that too risky?

The percentage is not the only issue - its feeding it IN BALANCE with phosphorus.

This article provides further information. There is plenty of reading about on the whole cal/phos balance issue. The only thing I'd say about that article is that I don't have an issue with "homemade diets". Its when people feed them without the right research that pups have issues. Cooking up a stew of mince, pasta and veggies is a classic example.

The convenient thing for raw feeders is that meat on digestible bone (eg. chicken wings) has the appropriate balance. Feed a lot of raw meat off the bone and you start to get issues.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[denali]

When i first started any of my pups on raw i did it with barf patties. However deniki I did the PMR.

With puppies you want to gove them organs as soon as possible, but it is dependant on theindividual dogs stomach as to how well they would cope with it all.

Definitely feed lots of edible bones :)

[Yonjuro]

I agree that balance is important, which is why I think people need to be careful when feeding RMBs with kibble (assuming the RMB is mainly bone) doing so can add too much calcium to the diet as the kibble has an already balanced calcium:phosphorus ratio. Too much calcium will bind zinc and can lead to ZRD (in Huskies at least) I have no problems with half kibble and half balanced raw (80:10:5:5)

10% edible bone is the recommended bone content with prey model raw feeding as this will balance with the phosphorus content of the 80% muscle meat and organs.

Chicken wings are around 46% bone, so when you work out your weights and ratios you need to take this into account.

Chicken necks are around 80% bone

Edited May 6, 2015 by Yonjuro

[frankiethestaffie]

Hi guys

I appreciate all the feedback that's been provided, been a big help!

Yeah I'm definitely happy with the quality and health of the breeders dogs. He comes from a line of grand champion show dogs and they are of exceptional quality. The diet the dogs are on is a combination of kibble and homemade diets, however I've been intrigued about the benefits of going raw. I have discussed raw with the breeder, and the only issue they have with it is not having the right balance and all the nutrients the dog needs. And if I'm not confident in what I'm doing it's better to feed him kibble.

I'm not too paranoid about weights and ratios, and won't be the type that doesn't make the required adjustments based on weight, activity, stools etc. The main thing I'm worried about is that he's a pup, and I want to ensure that I start him off correctly, and that he gets all his nutrients so he grows and develops properly.

I have considered the option of keeping him on kibble but reducing the amount, and incorporating RMB's into the diet. Then transition to a full raw diet.

The part I was mainly confused about is that I've seen people follow either the 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal split; or 40-50% RMB's, 10-15% offal, and the rest muscle meat.

However, when I calulated both of them, they seemed to differ by a lot.

Essentially if I was feeding my pup say 500 grams daily, broken down to 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% offal. He should be eating 400 grams of meat, 50 grams of bone, and 50 grams of offal. I'm aware this can be spread out throughout the week, but just as an example, that should translate to this:

Say a chicken wing is 46% bone and weighs on average 90 grams. 1 chicken wing is already 41.4 grams of bone, and 48.6 grams of meat. Meaning that 1 chicken wing nearly takes up the 50 gram recommended limit. So the rest of his meal should practically be muscle meat? I just thought it sounded too little bone.

Then there's the other split which consists of approx 40-50% RMB's (depending on how meaty the part is), 10-15% offal, and the rest muscle meat. Based on this, I'd be able to feed my pup at the very least 2 chicken wings as it would weigh around 180 grams, which is only 36% of his daily intake.

Because of this I wanted some advice as the calcium to phosphorus ratio difference between the two is quite significant. Or have I misinterpreted something?

[VizslaMomma]

Just to say I am totally distracted by this cute puppy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Squuuuueeeeee on ALL counts.

He's adorable & I love the name!

[frankiethestaffie]

Haha thanks! Don't let the photos fool you!