99probsbutadogaint1 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 (edited) Hi Everyone, This one probably belongs in breeder's forums, but I'm having a heart attack, I need someone to calm me down. I have recently sold a puppy, who at their vet check passed with flying colours, on a Contract of Sale outlining the conditions in which the person purchased the puppy. The main reason for this was to ensure that the dog would be desexed by a certain age, but we also included things such as ensuring the new owners had the puppy health checked within 72 hours so that they would agree the dog was in good health. Well, 9 hours past the 72 hours we were contacted and told that what our vet deemed a perfectly health puppy a week ago has a heart murmur. The contract offers the new owner the following provision; (I'm surmising) - that in the case that their chosen AVA veterinarian does not agree that the dog is in good health, the puppy, at the buyers expense will be brought back to the premises of the breeder so that the breeder can take the puppy to their own veterinarian for examination. - that if the breeder's veterinarian agrees that the puppy is not in good health the breeder agrees to take the puppy back with a full refund and/or the choice of a limited registration puppy from a future litter on which an amended contract will be signed. We also said that diseases caused by polygenetic mode of inheritances were void from liability on the part of the breeder now or at any time during the dogs life - despite our health testing and the dedicated choosing of two healthy adults to mate to produce the puppy. We had the new owners view the puppies a week before they went home, and sent the contract with them and made sure they read it, encouraging them that if they did not want to agree to the conditions of the contract to not go ahead with the sale. Well, contract signed without a problem, the new owner has now called me, will not produce puppy to my address so I can get my vet to look at it, (they live close by), and wants to get her old vet to look at it. They don't want to give the puppy back, and at this stage am not even sure what they want me to do - (I believe it may be a refund as the price of said pup kept coming up) I am devastated, and have no idea what to do, after many phone calls, can still not convince them to adhere to the contract that they signed, and am not sure how to settle the matter. Should I stick to my guns? Should I say until my vet has looked at the puppy I can do no more for them? I don't want to be mean, but I have to be sure that the puppy is indeed sick, and if it does have a murmur (the dog is only eight weeks old) I would rather take it back and wait to see if it is just a puppy murmur that passes, but that is not going to happen, no way, they believe they are the only home that has the ability to look after said 'sick puppy' - what would you do? Edited April 28, 2015 by 99probsbutadogaint1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I know its a hard position to be in but its not a faulty toaster, its a beautiful puppy that these people love. I wouldn't make them return it. If two separate vets find a heart murmur, then perhaps you can work out a new deal - eg. If murmur still present in a few months, refund 50% purchase price. Or tell them you will refund if they get the heart condition properly diagnosed by a cardio specialist and he says it is a serious problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliwake Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I don't think it's unreasonable for your vet to check the puppy - particularly as they live in the area. I would stick to your guns on that point. The 72 hours, well, I'd be a little flexible on that - it wasn't that much over. Without your vet's advice, you have to wonder if they're trying to screw you over to get a free puppy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teekay Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Hi Everyone, This one probably belongs in breeder's forums, but I'm having a heart attack, I need someone to calm me down. I have recently sold a puppy, who at their vet check passed with flying colours, on a Contract of Sale outlining the conditions in which the person purchased the puppy. The main reason for this was to ensure that the dog would be desexed by a certain age, but we also included things such as ensuring the new owners had the puppy health checked within 72 hours so that they would agree the dog was in good health. Well, 9 hours past the 72 hours we were contacted and told that what our vet deemed a perfectly health puppy a week ago has a heart murmur. The contract offers the new owner the following provision; (I'm surmising) - that in the case that their chosen AVA veterinarian does not agree that the dog is in good health, the puppy, at the buyers expense will be brought back to the premises of the breeder so that the breeder can take the puppy to their own veterinarian for examination. - that if the breeder's veterinarian agrees that the puppy is not in good health the breeder agrees to take the puppy back with a full refund and/or the choice of a limited registration puppy from a future litter on which an amended contract will be signed. We also said that diseases caused by polygenetic mode of inheritances were void from liability on the part of the breeder now or at any time during the dogs life - despite our health testing and the dedicated choosing of two healthy adults to mate to produce the puppy. We had the new owners view the puppies a week before they went home, and sent the contract with them and made sure they read it, encouraging them that if they did not want to agree to the conditions of the contract to not go ahead with the sale. Well, contract signed without a problem, the new owner has now called me, will not produce puppy to my address so I can get my vet to look at it, (they live close by), and wants to get her old vet to look at it. They don't want to give the puppy back, and at this stage am not even sure what they want me to do - (I believe it may be a refund as the price of said pup kept coming up) I am devastated, and have no idea what to do, after many phone calls, can still not convince them to adhere to the contract that they signed, and am not sure how to settle the matter. Should I stick to my guns? Should I say until my vet has looked at the puppy I can do no more for them? I don't want to be mean, but I have to be sure that the puppy is indeed sick, and if it does have a murmur (the dog is only eight weeks old) I would rather take it back and wait to see if it is just a puppy murmur that passes, but that is not going to happen, no way, they believe they are the only home that has the ability to look after said 'sick puppy' - what would you do? re the bolded bit. I think it may be better for the owner to take the puppy to the vet of your choosing rather than you take it. You can offer to pay if you like, but it just keeps things more open I feel, and if the new owner is feeling like they don't trust the breeder ( not specifically talking about you here) then they would be more comfortable talking to the vet direct? As long as the buyer is reasonably local I think it perfectly reasonable that you would like your own trusted vet to look at the puppy. If it does turn out to have a murmur that is a little more complicated certainly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PL_ Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Vet check at your vet before discussing a refund. Full stop. Don't accept any other options or let them dictate terms. They've probably convinced themselves you'll be able to influence your own vet but that's too bad. Dig your heels in, you were specific in your purchase contract which they signed and agreed to but put simply it's an honour system, you can't enforce it without civil action. Money is your only leverage right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 They read and supposedly understood (which is what signing means) the terms in purchasing this puppy. No I would not give them a red cent at all until your vet has seen the dog and has spoken to the vet in question as well. Have they signed a microchip transfer form? If not I would rock up on their doorstep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I agree with teekay - let them take the pup to your vet. If I was worried a breeder might take the dog if it was sick, I'd be taking the pup myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99probsbutadogaint1 Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 They have said that going to our vet is a 'waste of time' and we have again offered to take the dog back. They have given us a vet report with no vet name or signature outlining a minus 1 grade murmur innocent, but she went in saying the dog had a puppy murmur etc, as well as seizures as she moves her feet in her sleep - which the vet has said is most likely dreams or deep REM movements and that he needs to see a video before going any further. We again offered to take the dog back and refund the money in total, but she has now agreed to keep her and does not want any money back - total change around in an hour from which she was saying awful things and now she says we are people with principles etc. Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I know its a hard position to be in but its not a faulty toaster, its a beautiful puppy that these people love. I wouldn't make them return it. If two separate vets find a heart murmur, then perhaps you can work out a new deal - eg. If murmur still present in a few months, refund 50% purchase price. Or tell them you will refund if they get the heart condition properly diagnosed by a cardio specialist and he says it is a serious problem. Hmm, have to play devil's advocate here. If they really loved this puppy, they would be falling over themselves to have it checked at the breeder's vet. And for people to say that a puppy is having seizures because it moves its feet in its sleep. OMG, :eek: I would be trying every which way to get that puppy back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 They have said that going to our vet is a 'waste of time' and we have again offered to take the dog back. They have given us a vet report with no vet name or signature outlining a minus 1 grade murmur innocent, but she went in saying the dog had a puppy murmur etc, as well as seizures as she moves her feet in her sleep - which the vet has said is most likely dreams or deep REM movements and that he needs to see a video before going any further. We again offered to take the dog back and refund the money in total, but she has now agreed to keep her and does not want any money back - total change around in an hour from which she was saying awful things and now she says we are people with principles etc. Weird. It may not work, but if that puppy had been bred by me, I would be on their doorstep with the refund money in cash to hand over to try to get the dog back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keetamouse Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Don't some puppies have slight heart murmurs and as they grow it disappears??? Maree CPR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 They have said that going to our vet is a 'waste of time' and we have again offered to take the dog back. They have given us a vet report with no vet name or signature outlining a minus 1 grade murmur innocent, but she went in saying the dog had a puppy murmur etc, as well as seizures as she moves her feet in her sleep - which the vet has said is most likely dreams or deep REM movements and that he needs to see a video before going any further. We again offered to take the dog back and refund the money in total, but she has now agreed to keep her and does not want any money back - total change around in an hour from which she was saying awful things and now she says we are people with principles etc. Weird. Oh dear The twitching (even "talking) in sleep is normal, it's important that she leaves puppy alone while it's sleeping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I would tell them that you are taking legal advice & would consider doing so. If you phone a lawyer & explain the problem they will advise you on cost for a consult & may even advise you on the phone at no cost. I would also ask again that they take the puppy to your own vet & that you will pay for the consult. Good luck with it. Difficult situation. Hope it works out ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 They have said that going to our vet is a 'waste of time' and we have again offered to take the dog back. They have given us a vet report with no vet name or signature outlining a minus 1 grade murmur innocent, but she went in saying the dog had a puppy murmur etc, as well as seizures as she moves her feet in her sleep - which the vet has said is most likely dreams or deep REM movements and that he needs to see a video before going any further. We again offered to take the dog back and refund the money in total, but she has now agreed to keep her and does not want any money back - total change around in an hour from which she was saying awful things and now she says we are people with principles etc. Weird. I would take the puppy back, outline a refund, that the dog is contractually obliged to be returned if there is a fault (throw the vet report back onto her if they want to play like that) and a refund will be provided in cash. Life is too short for people like this. Seizures my butt. If this is how it starts they won't get any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 You certainly need more than one vet to check the heart. I had a vet tell me that my dog had a murmur. She doesn't at all. No idea what he was listening to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) Cripes. My dog has fart attacks in his sleep, can I cry defect? I don't want to send him back though, seems I'd fit right in! A normal person would have called to voice their concerns before racing off to the vet for seizures... Havins said that, Gus went to the vet once for a penis infection...it was jizz. I was horrified. Edited April 29, 2015 by Steph M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Cripes. My dog has fart attacks in his sleep, can I cry defect? I don't want to send him back though, seems I'd fit right in! A normal person would have called to voice their concerns before racing off to the vet for seizures... Havins said that, Gus went to the vet once for a penis infection...it was jizz. I was horrified. Now I feel slightly less stupid for taking my dog in to have that weird little black lump removed from his chest- which turned out to be one of his nipples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 In our defense, the vet student was baffled too. When he called the vet in she was like "...that's sperm" So wasn't just me with a red face! Woohoo! Glad your dog didn't get a nippleectomy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazyWal Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Cripes. My dog has fart attacks in his sleep, can I cry defect? I don't want to send him back though, seems I'd fit right in! A normal person would have called to voice their concerns before racing off to the vet for seizures... Havins said that, Gus went to the vet once for a penis infection...it was jizz. I was horrified. Now I feel slightly less stupid for taking my dog in to have that weird little black lump removed from his chest- which turned out to be one of his nipples At least you didn't try to pull a nipple off thinking it was a tick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I feel like this deserves its own thread....hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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