New Dog And Cat Laws In South Australia

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi all

SA Government is finally proposing some changes that will help catch them up with the Eastern States.

in particular - more microchipping. And stricter requirements on breeders. Unlike the Eastern States - as best I can tell - there is no minimum number of bitches that makes you a breeder - if your animal has puppies - you have to comply. They have made it confusing by mixing cat stuff in with the dog stuff, and some of it is too vague to be enforced and a lot of it is "guidelines" ARRRGH - ie rules that are not intended to be enforced.

So they're doing a public consult where you can have your say. Or you can write your local state MP directly. You can do the online survey and you can send in your own submission.

Remember if you do want to have your say - focus on what you want, and what the rules would need to say to achieve that.

http://yoursay.sa.gov.au/yoursay/south-australia-s-dog-and-cat-reforms

[AMuse]

I've been asked, and have accepted the task of being a part of the Citizen's Jury on Dog and Cat Management - a community consultation move by the state government to obtain weighed community opinion on the reforms that are being proposed. The focus is very much on the reduction of unwanted litters of dogs and cats.

The idea is that 36 of us will spend 5 days over the next few weekends being briefed on matters by experts, reviewing submissions made by organisations and the public and then asking to speak with people that we feel will add particular expertise and value to the discussion and will inform our views. At the conclusion of the process we will be presenting our findings to the parliament.

I just thought that it might be worthwhile spreading news of this around the community of responsible breeders and dog owners because the opportunity for public comment is open until 10th July - the website is http://yoursay.sa.gov.au/yoursay/citizens-jury-dog-and-cat-management.

We are, as jurors, being encouraged to talk about this with others. Please have your say!

[westiemum]

Guys Amuse is pretty sensible (I've known him since we were teenagers ) - so please jump in with your thoughts and opinions and help him out. Of course he's had the westiemum view of the world already tonight!

Amuse you might want to check your link - it doesn't seem to be working. Also consider posting in General - you might get more exposure there.

Edited June 22, 2015 by westiemum

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I always go by "view new content" or "view my content" which goes across all the forums.. but regular posts in the thread helps.

I can't remember if I answered the survey or not.

Number 1 thing I want to see - is no dog or cat be rehomed or sold without a microchip.

Number 2 thing - no puppy to be separated from its litter and mother ie rehomed without them - until at least 8 weeks old unless a good reason in writing from a vet. Ie the mother died.

Number 3 - separate the cat stuff from the dog stuff where the breeding and homing requirements are. dogs and cats have different needs. Most people who breed one species - don't breed the other - it's confusing to have it all jumbled up together.

Number 4. There should be some consequence for a breeder who rehomes a sick dog or puppy. Including genetic problems. Given it's kind of like adopting... maybe paying some of the vet fees up to the price of the puppy if the new owner doesn't want to give the puppy back. It's tricky - especially if the puppy has a problem that means it ought not be bred from... but there must be a way of solving this besides handing the "faulty puppy" back to the "faulty breeder" - bearing in mind some breeders don't care and some do care.

A record should be kept - so that it can be clear if it's a pattern with that breeder and puppy parentage.

Any fines should cover the cost of enforcement for council and RSPCA or they won't have the resources to do it and they won't bother.

Any vague phrases that are just there for lawyers to argue about like "reasonable" and "acceptable" ie the time a dog or puppy spends on a mesh floor - I'd like to see that down to 30 minutes unless there is a letter from a vet... ie a specific time. ie 30 minutes ok, 1 hour - not so good, 3 hours - clear evidence of abuse - nothing for lawyers to argue about. That ought to sort that nasty person who hoists his scary looking dogs in cages above his parties.

[Christina]

Some of it is good & some not good.

As a small hobby cat & dog breeder I find the needs are different & dogs & cats do need seperate consideration.

I was gobsmacked to see that they want to allow selling of kittens at 7 weeks members of cat councils here in SA are not allowed to sell until 12 weeks, its in our code of ethics.

So the public who want their kitten now will go to back yard breeders & get that 7 week old kitten that basically does need to be with its mother.

For those breeders whose cats & dogs live in cages permanently the minimum cage sizes are inadequate. I know it has exercise areas but how would anyone know how often they were in there. Impossible to know.

I would not us to be like Victoria, which is ridiculous, but most of what I have read so far seems fairly reasonable. I don't know that it will ever stop unwanted litters, shonky breeders & cruelty & neglect though.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Christina

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

They were talking on the radio this morning and said the period for public submissions ends this Friday.

http://yoursay.sa.gov.au/yoursay/south-australia-s-dog-and-cat-reforms

They also said that the fines are going to be increased - but the fines they talked about were a lot less than most councils have listed.

eg I think they said about $55 for not picking up after your dog, but Adelaide city council has it more like $125 or over, and still they don't find it worth while to send rangers out to enforce it.

And stray (escaped?) dog fine was $80 and will go up a few hundred - so AWL rep was saying on the radio - that some people would not be able to afford to get their dogs out of the pound without a payment plan. I guess they'd have to commit to the payment plan and get their dog out at the same time or they will accrue boarding costs faster than they could ever afford to pay it back.

There's a big fine for not having dog microchipped... and it grows for every three months the dog is left unmicrochipped but the age is 3 months old so puppies can be sold without them. Personally I think they ought to increase the overhead on puppy farms - so no selling or rehoming puppies without microchips or under 8 weeks old.

[Dory the Doted One]

It all sounds so punitive. I've noticed that people will do a lot for a discount.

[Tassie]

Christina said

I was gobsmacked to see that they want to allow selling of kittens at 7 weeks members of cat councils here in SA are not allowed to sell until 12 weeks, its in our code of ethics.

And if they allow selling at 7 weeks (which is highly undesirable IMHO), it is highly unlikely that the kitten will be desexed before going to its new home. Vets down here don't like to do them too young .. the one who did mine likes them to be at least 12 weeks but prefers 14. So I don't see how that would help the unwanted kittens/feral cat problem in the least. (Rules for registered cat breeders are the same here ... minimum 12 weeks, microchipped, and must be desexed if not being sold to another registered breeder.

[Christina]

Christina said

I was gobsmacked to see that they want to allow selling of kittens at 7 weeks members of cat councils here in SA are not allowed to sell until 12 weeks, its in our code of ethics.

And if they allow selling at 7 weeks (which is highly undesirable IMHO), it is highly unlikely that the kitten will be desexed before going to its new home. Vets down here don't like to do them too young .. the one who did mine likes them to be at least 12 weeks but prefers 14. So I don't see how that would help the unwanted kittens/feral cat problem in the least. (Rules for registered cat breeders are the same here ... minimum 12 weeks, microchipped, and must be desexed if not being sold to another registered breeder.

Other issue is that vets cannot desex until kittens are a minimum of 1 kilo in weight. Kittens never reach a kilo by 7 weeks.

[The Spotted Devil]

Agree. They need to be a kilo. Seven weeks will just mean people push it to 6 weeks.

[AMuse]

I always go by "view new content" or "view my content" which goes across all the forums.. but regular posts in the thread helps.

I can't remember if I answered the survey or not.

Number 1 thing I want to see - is no dog or cat be rehomed or sold without a microchip.

Number 2 thing - no puppy to be separated from its litter and mother ie rehomed without them - until at least 8 weeks old unless a good reason in writing from a vet. Ie the mother died.

Number 3 - separate the cat stuff from the dog stuff where the breeding and homing requirements are. dogs and cats have different needs. Most people who breed one species - don't breed the other - it's confusing to have it all jumbled up together.

Number 4. There should be some consequence for a breeder who rehomes a sick dog or puppy. Including genetic problems. Given it's kind of like adopting... maybe paying some of the vet fees up to the price of the puppy if the new owner doesn't want to give the puppy back. It's tricky - especially if the puppy has a problem that means it ought not be bred from... but there must be a way of solving this besides handing the "faulty puppy" back to the "faulty breeder" - bearing in mind some breeders don't care and some do care.

A record should be kept - so that it can be clear if it's a pattern with that breeder and puppy parentage.

Any fines should cover the cost of enforcement for council and RSPCA or they won't have the resources to do it and they won't bother.

Any vague phrases that are just there for lawyers to argue about like "reasonable" and "acceptable" ie the time a dog or puppy spends on a mesh floor - I'd like to see that down to 30 minutes unless there is a letter from a vet... ie a specific time. ie 30 minutes ok, 1 hour - not so good, 3 hours - clear evidence of abuse - nothing for lawyers to argue about. That ought to sort that nasty person who hoists his scary looking dogs in cages above his parties.

Thanks for that. These are all good things for me to take along and put into the mix over the next few weekends. I appreciate your time.

[AMuse]

Some of it is good & some not good.

As a small hobby cat & dog breeder I find the needs are different & dogs & cats do need seperate consideration.

I was gobsmacked to see that they want to allow selling of kittens at 7 weeks members of cat councils here in SA are not allowed to sell until 12 weeks, its in our code of ethics.

So the public who want their kitten now will go to back yard breeders & get that 7 week old kitten that basically does need to be with its mother.

For those breeders whose cats & dogs live in cages permanently the minimum cage sizes are inadequate. I know it has exercise areas but how would anyone know how often they were in there. Impossible to know.

I would not us to be like Victoria, which is ridiculous, but most of what I have read so far seems fairly reasonable. I don't know that it will ever stop unwanted litters, shonky breeders & cruelty & neglect though.

Thanks Christina. I agree that there is a great need to ensure that breeders are regulated in some way to ensure that the best interests of the animal are always paramount.

[Steph M]

Christina said

I was gobsmacked to see that they want to allow selling of kittens at 7 weeks members of cat councils here in SA are not allowed to sell until 12 weeks, its in our code of ethics.

And if they allow selling at 7 weeks (which is highly undesirable IMHO), it is highly unlikely that the kitten will be desexed before going to its new home. Vets down here don't like to do them too young .. the one who did mine likes them to be at least 12 weeks but prefers 14. So I don't see how that would help the unwanted kittens/feral cat problem in the least. (Rules for registered cat breeders are the same here ... minimum 12 weeks, microchipped, and must be desexed if not being sold to another registered breeder.

Other issue is that vets cannot desex until kittens are a minimum of 1 kilo in weight. Kittens never reach a kilo by 7 weeks.

I wonder what that will mean for transport too, animal transport companies won't touch a cat or dog under 8 weeks and need a vet cert to back that DOB up in a lot of cases.

8 week old kittens are still so young with so much developing to do! Any younger would make me very uncomfortable.

[AMuse]

It all sounds so punitive. I've noticed that people will do a lot for a discount.

Don't people need to have a realistic view of the financial burden that comes with taking on the responsibility of a pet? To me a fine is a fine and should be punitive - and payment is not an option either is is a must, and enforceable.

One of the possibilities is to make sure that all people who purchase a dog or cat are given a sheet that explains the true cost of ownership before they are able to purchase the animal - say at least a week beforehand - and that this covers things like desexing costs, food costs, an allowance for vet bills, bedding and toys, etc. If people are properly informed then they are less likely to make an impulse purchase and then look to dump the animal later.

[AMuse]

Is there a possibility of mandating that pets that are non-breeding (ie not on the main register) are sold with a voucher for desexing and that this must be done by a certain age (eg 18 months for dogs)?

I'd think that there would have to be a lot of things very carefully sorted out before this happened, like:

* a standardised (and regulated) vet fee for desexing - so that the breeder could buy a voucher that is sold with the animal

* a way of registering breeders and mandating that any animal sales must be through a registered breeder

* an 'out clause' that allows a registered vet to certify that the timeframe for desexing needs to be extended for a particular animal for an particular time for reasons that are related to the animal's health and/or needs (not those of the human owners).

What do you think?

What have I missed or got wrong?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I've got mixed feelings on desexing.

I'm happy for there to be a registration discount for a desexed dog but some dogs need to be desexed much later than the current convention for good bone and joint development eg 18 months old (not 8 weeks like my dog).

I do think that owners should get a licence before allowing their dog to breed. And if a boy dog jumped a fence to get in with the bitch - then maybe the boy dog's owner could be (equally) liable for something. The fine for breeding without a licence? Given it's possible to use DNA tests now to prove which dog was the father of each puppy. The fines should cover the costs of DNA tests...

I don't think a responsible owner who doesn't intend to breed and manages their dog so it doesn't - should be forced to desex their dog just because some people are reckless with their dogs and breeding. It's like saying nobody is allowed to have a car because some people deliberately drive dangerously.

[Steve]

I've been asked, and have accepted the task of being a part of the Citizen's Jury on Dog and Cat Management - a community consultation move by the state government to obtain weighed community opinion on the reforms that are being proposed. The focus is very much on the reduction of unwanted litters of dogs and cats.

The idea is that 36 of us will spend 5 days over the next few weekends being briefed on matters by experts, reviewing submissions made by organisations and the public and then asking to speak with people that we feel will add particular expertise and value to the discussion and will inform our views. At the conclusion of the process we will be presenting our findings to the parliament.

I just thought that it might be worthwhile spreading news of this around the community of responsible breeders and dog owners because the opportunity for public comment is open until 10th July - the website is http://yoursay.sa.go...cat-management.

We are, as jurors, being encouraged to talk about this with others. Please have your say!

Sounds good if its being approached from an unbiased prospective - the fact that you say unwanted litters is a concern because form where I sit there is no difficulty in people finding homes for puppies .You may get a few now and then but the cure needs to be proportionate to the real problem not the perceived one.

[Steve]

Number 1 thing I want to see - is no dog or cat be rehomed or sold without a microchip. Agree

Number 2 thing - no puppy to be separated from its litter and mother ie rehomed without them - until at least 8 weeks old unless a good reason in writing from a vet. Ie the mother died. Why?

Number 3 - separate the cat stuff from the dog stuff where the breeding and homing requirements are. dogs and cats have different needs. Most people who breed one species - don't breed the other - it's confusing to have it all jumbled up together. Agree

Number 4. There should be some consequence for a breeder who rehomes a sick dog or puppy. Including genetic problems. Given it's kind of like adopting... maybe paying some of the vet fees up to the price of the puppy if the new owner doesn't want to give the puppy back. It's tricky - especially if the puppy has a problem that means it ought not be bred from... but there must be a way of solving this besides handing the "faulty puppy" back to the "faulty breeder" - bearing in mind some breeders don't care and some do care. There are already such things in place covered under cruelty and consumer laws- no need for new regs and how can a breeder be held responsible for a genetic problems some time into the future that they had no way of preventing? Many genetic conditions are impacted by things beyond the breeders control.

A record should be kept - so that it can be clear if it's a pattern with that breeder and puppy parentage.

Any fines should cover the cost of enforcement for council and RSPCA or they won't have the resources to do it and they won't bother. You have to get them to enforce them first

Any vague phrases that are just there for lawyers to argue about like "reasonable" and "acceptable" ie the time a dog or puppy spends on a mesh floor - I'd like to see that down to 30 minutes unless there is a letter from a vet... ie a specific time. ie 30 minutes ok, 1 hour - not so good, 3 hours - clear evidence of abuse - nothing for lawyers to argue about. That ought to sort that nasty person who hoists his scary looking dogs in cages above his parties.

[Steve]

Christina said

I was gobsmacked to see that they want to allow selling of kittens at 7 weeks members of cat councils here in SA are not allowed to sell until 12 weeks, its in our code of ethics.

And if they allow selling at 7 weeks (which is highly undesirable IMHO), it is highly unlikely that the kitten will be desexed before going to its new home. Vets down here don't like to do them too young .. the one who did mine likes them to be at least 12 weeks but prefers 14. So I don't see how that would help the unwanted kittens/feral cat problem in the least. (Rules for registered cat breeders are the same here ... minimum 12 weeks, microchipped, and must be desexed if not being sold to another registered breeder.

Vets here will desex kittens at 6 weeks.

[Steve]

So - Firstly I would like to see the real issues addressed based on facts - not assumptions and not on sensationalism.

Dogs and Cats have to be separated within reason because there are different issues surrounding which ones come into shelters and which are unwanted.

There are more kittens born from stray cats than there are puppies born from stray dogs, the demand for cross bred puppies which people will pay for is higher than the demand for moggies which dont bring 1000 plus [as puppies do ] for those who breed them. We need to be sure any perceived need for new regs which will impact on those who are doing it all right now is proportionate to the real problem .Treating dog and cat breeders as if they are potential animal abusers and restricting them in ways that can never be regulated or enforced in case someone somewhere is doing the wrong thing needs to be re thought out .

With dogs if you can lessen the demand then less will be bred , with kittens its highly unlikely that a lessening of the demand would reduce those being born.

When people buy a puppy or a kitten they need to be seen as puppy and kitten buyers not consumers and they need to know that they are taking a living thing into their homes which they need to be responsible for until it reaches old age and dies. This takes putting a focus on who wants these baby animals, who takes them and who will live with them. Put money and resources into educating pet owners, public campaigns making them re consider what it means to take on a pet and make it socially unacceptable for them to choose animals they then dont look after or dump. Until you do that the rest is a waste of time and money and only the good guys will follow the rules.

The other major deal for me is that regs need to be fitting with the science of the species and not on assumptions and mythology on what is best for the puppies and kittens and the families who will take them.