Incorrect Cruciate Diagnosis

[OSoSwift]

I hope your hand is going okay and your boy is not too traumatised by his attack.

Unfortunately sometimes you just have to wait and as I say - it will come out in the wash. Not always a way I am happy to do things, but none the less, a way that is sometimes the only way, unless you have a money tree. Sometimes even then its a wait and see what happens and wait until it shows up more, longer etc

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

He occasionally holds that leg up for maybe 3 steps in a hour long bush walk, but he has been doing that intermittently on both legs for nearly a year now.

Most of me wasn't working properly - especially my feet - after a long day of stewarding at an agility comp on Saturday. But I don't think there is anything wrong that could be fixed by surgery.

Limping like that - three steps - with my dog - usually she's got a gumnut stuck in her foot. Or an ant... It's worse if it's a caltrop - she just looks at me with a paw in the air like the end of the world has come and I should fix it. Big round eyes of misery.

So hopefully it's nothing serious enough to require surgery and a bit of rest will fix it.

I am amazed at how much of me stops working when I'm not doing enough of the right kind of exercise. Just walking the dog for two or three hours split between morning and evening - is not enough to keep my balance muscles awake and stretched. Sigh.

[Little Gifts]

Canetoad I know Jonah has great body condition but I'm just wondering is the distance you are covering or duration you are exercising him for simply a bit too much for his breed? Could it be as simple as muscle fatigue during a long work out? Is it worth cutting back and seeing what happens with him?

[Canisbellum]

Canetoad I know Jonah has great body condition but I'm just wondering is the distance you are covering or duration you are exercising him for simply a bit too much for his breed? Could it be as simple as muscle fatigue during a long work out? Is it worth cutting back and seeing what happens with him?

If that was the case I would expect him to have issues towards the end of a walk but thats not the case, the 3 legging can be at any time and its not every time, this whole thing is totally random

[Little Gifts]

Weird.

[JulesP]

Does he ever do the 3 legs just walking around the garden? If he is only doing it on bush walks/walks I would be thinking he has stepped on an ouchy.

My dog that had ligament problems (torn ligament) would do the 3 legs just walking in the garden. I would sometimes need to help the knee back into place. She showed zero pain when this happened btw.

[Loving my Oldies]

Canetoad I know Jonah has great body condition but I'm just wondering is the distance you are covering or duration you are exercising him for simply a bit too much for his breed? Could it be as simple as muscle fatigue during a long work out? Is it worth cutting back and seeing what happens with him?

If that was the case I would expect him to have issues towards the end of a walk but thats not the case, the 3 legging can be at any time and its not every time, this whole thing is totally random

Pain can be random.

And the holding up of a leg or running on three legs can be a habit formed from when a dog was in pain.

[Canisbellum]

I think I have seen it once at home, it's normally out in the bush if he does it and as I said it's very seldom and random.

[Jumabaar]

Quick addition- Although you can't see a ligament under sedation there are a fair few soft tissue changes that do accompany the damage to the ligament that can be visualised. Also when manipulating the joint under sedation you are not looking for a pain reaction- you are looking to see if the ligament is actually working. If it is you can't manipulate the joint out of place like you can when it has ruptured. It is actually much more sensitive than doing when the dog is awake.

I would be looking along the lines of soft tissue issues. The Ileopsoas is one muscle that can cause symptoms like you describe when damaged. It could even be ligaments on the outside of the knee that are partially damaged and healing. If it was a ligament then resting it was probably a ver good call. It would be great if you could get some help to do exercises to strengthen the ligaments, or have the muscles assessed. Are you still in Brissy? There might be a rehab therapist that can investigate a little more for you and hopefully shed some light on whats going on. And advise you on the best way to return him to full function.

[cavNrott]

I was told by a surgeon who does this surgery, as well as teaches the ruptured ligament procedure at Werribee Vet Uni that ligaments once ruptured or partially ruptured do not heal or reconstruct.

Edited May 6, 2015 by cavNrott

[Canisbellum]

Quick addition- Although you can't see a ligament under sedation there are a fair few soft tissue changes that do accompany the damage to the ligament that can be visualised. Also when manipulating the joint under sedation you are not looking for a pain reaction- you are looking to see if the ligament is actually working. If it is you can't manipulate the joint out of place like you can when it has ruptured. It is actually much more sensitive than doing when the dog is awake.

I would be looking along the lines of soft tissue issues. The Ileopsoas is one muscle that can cause symptoms like you describe when damaged. It could even be ligaments on the outside of the knee that are partially damaged and healing. If it was a ligament then resting it was probably a ver good call. It would be great if you could get some help to do exercises to strengthen the ligaments, or have the muscles assessed. Are you still in Brissy? There might be a rehab therapist that can investigate a little more for you and hopefully shed some light on whats going on. And advise you on the best way to return him to full function.

I was only in Brisbane for a week, back in whoop whoop again

[Jumabaar]

I was told by a surgeon who does this surgery, as well as teaches the ruptured ligament procedure at Werribee Vet Uni that ligaments once ruptured or partially ruptured do not heal or reconstruct.

There are some interesting studies happening in the US regarding partially ruptured cruciate ligaments. They are using stem cells as therapy. To make sure it is appropriately diagnosed they are looking at it arthoscopically and using gait measurement systems to assess improvements in weight bearing. They are then looking at it again via arthroscope and checking to see if the damage is still there.

It is still in the process but It is looking very positive!! They won't do it for ruptures greater than about 25%- at that point it is past being able to mechanically survive and at that point they recommend surgery.

I was actually talking about ligaments outside the knee, rather than the cruciate. Typically ligaments do suck at healing but we can bias what happens to make the most of what is there. This is why I love working in rehab. I was lucky enough to work with some of the leading names (Vets and PT's) in Canine Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation in the States who are on the forefront of research into the area. I am hoping to do further study to improve my skills in musculoskeletal ultrasound so in cases like this we can actually visualise structures around the knee that can tell us in great detail what is going on

Tendons are another tricky tissue to work with once it has been damaged- but when you can see what is going on you can bias healing toward the best results.

Bugger about being back in whoop whoop!! There are rehab specialists that do distance consults online if it does continue to happen.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Jumabaar

[Canisbellum]

I was told by a surgeon who does this surgery, as well as teaches the ruptured ligament procedure at Werribee Vet Uni that ligaments once ruptured or partially ruptured do not heal or reconstruct.

There are some interesting studies happening in the US regarding partially ruptured cruciate ligaments. They are using stem cells as therapy. To make sure it is appropriately diagnosed they are looking at it arthoscopically and using gait measurement systems to assess improvements in weight bearing. They are then looking at it again via arthroscope and checking to see if the damage is still there.

It is still in the process but It is looking very positive!! They won't do it for ruptures greater than about 25%- at that point it is past being able to mechanically survive and at that point they recommend surgery.

I was actually talking about ligaments outside the knee, rather than the cruciate. Typically ligaments do suck at healing but we can bias what happens to make the most of what is there. This is why I love working in rehab. I was lucky enough to work with some of the leading names (Vets and PT's) in Canine Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation in the States who are on the forefront of research into the area. I am hoping to do further study to improve my skills in musculoskeletal ultrasound so in cases like this we can actually visualise structures around the knee that can tell us in great detail what is going on

Tendons are another tricky tissue to work with once it has been damaged- but when you can see what is going on you can bias healing toward the best results.

Bugger about being back in whoop whoop!! There are rehab specialists that do distance consults online if it does continue to happen.

Thanks for the advice, he seems to be ok so far, just keeping an eye on him and limiting his jumping