Quetions

[Monchichi]

Morning....I just need to pick up some of your Dolers knowledge if I can..

Just recently my dog had been diagnosed with Grade 1 luxating patella on one of her leg by her normal vet (whom pointing surgery need to be done ASAP as my dog still young ad to prevent arthritis in early age)while she had her vaccine and general check-up. I was in disbelief hearing the news, not sounded arrogant, but she came from reputable registered breeder and health check the next day she arrived all clear. And I had not seen her limping or holding up her leg prior to this general check-up. So I asked 2more vets not long after. One said not even close to grade 1 then another (which I met in Dog Expo, free check up) said she is in serious “very bad” patella issue and required surgery ASAP and to this vet sound like grade 3 or 4. SHOCKED horror on my end. And this vet said my dog must be in pain and limping, I said no, I not seen her once in bad shape and the vet replied “oh, probably when you didn’t see her then she did that” really??? I dismissed this vet immediately! The vet even suggested 10% discount if I book it NOW.

It had passed a month since 1st diagnosis, and I finally saw her 1st episode on her holding up her leg last week, as she did zoomies around the garden and kind of skidded on one side. All the sudden she hold up her leg and looked at me puzzling, so I touched the leg and somehow pushed back her patella. By now, I realised she had this issue. Though I had been thinking how she got this issue at the first place, then I remembered few weeks before her general check up and vaccine, she was playing with a puppy in off leash park and I saw she slipped and just stand there for 5secs then zoomies again.

I feel like I’m a bad Mum to her and let down the breeder in some point. However, my dog is just so energetic, though she is now 1 year old not as crazy doing zoomies daily as she used to in my garden.

Just to make sure again, i brought her to a specialist and was told she has grade 2 now, OMG…surgery is recommended again.

So my questions are:

- Shall I wait until I see her having more episodes of limping or holding up her leg, before proceeding to surgery? Her breeder suggested this.

- She is insured. If I opt to choose surgery later down the track eg next year or whenever I feel it’s the time, will the insurance cover it, as the condition just diagnosed now?

- I tried to ring the insurance company, randomly asking if they cover the surgery, but the lady on the phone kind like pushing me to reveal my name etc so she can find in her database. So what should I do with the insurance?

[Loving my Oldies]

Number one: you are not a bad mum. :) Far from it.

Number two: see another specialist.

Number three: "free" check up at any sort of show even for humans are done to lead the person to take further action which won't be free

What breed is your dog?

Luxating patella is one of the most over diagnosed and over treated conditions for dogs. Be 100% sure your dog needs surgery before having it. Once you are cut, you can't be uncut.

Yes, there are dogs who need surgery.

Many have it who don't need it.

Vets like to scare people into having it by saying their dog will have arthritis.

[cavNrott]

When my Cavalier was about 18 months of age the vet diagnosed her with a Grade 2 Luxating Patella. She had shown no sign or symptoms of a dicky knee and the knee felt quite stable to me. Vet asked should he book her in for surgery and I said not until I saw some sign of her knee giving her grief.

This dog is now almost 10 years old and has still never shown any sign of having a luxating patella. I've been taking her to a vet closer to home for the last 7 years. I asked him what he thought of her knees without telling what the previous vet diagnosed. This current vet said her knees were stable and they have proven to be stable for all these years.

[cavNrott]

Monchichi, since you are in Melbourne as I am, there are only two specialist vets I would let touch my dogs. One is Wing Tip Wong at the Werribee Vet Teaching College...I don't know the correct name for it. The other is Pete Laverty at the Melbourne Specialist Veterinary Centre. They have a branch in Glen Waverley and also at Essendon.

I'm making another post here because I just read your dog has shown signs of having LP.

[Loving my Oldies]

When my Cavalier was about 18 months of age the vet diagnosed her with a Grade 2 Luxating Patella. She had shown no sign or symptoms of a dicky knee and the knee felt quite stable to me. Vet asked should he book her in for surgery and I said not until I saw some sign of her knee giving her grief.

This dog is now almost 10 years old and has still never shown any sign of having a luxating patella. I've been taking her to a vet closer to home for the last 7 years. I asked him what he thought of her knees without telling what the previous vet diagnosed. This current vet said her knees were stable and they have proven to be stable for all these years.

Thank god you have posted in this manner, cavNrott. I have been jumped on from a great height from time to time suggesting that, shock horror, vets might actually either not know what they are talking about or, even worse, thinking of their bank account.

It's like people getting into a lather because an animal is diagnosed with a heart murmur. 99% of animals, including the human animal, if they live long enough will have heart murmurs or heart problems most of which will not need medication or be controlled by medication.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Dame Danny's Darling

[Monchichi]

Dame Danny's Darling, thank you for putting me as not a bad mum, it helps! I still consider myself lucky with this diagnose instead of straight broken legs etc. :)

With number three: yes, now I learnt the hard way. Even my husband said nothing is free in this world! hahahaha :laugh:

cavNrott, thank you for your suggestion. I did read your posting while back regarding Dr Wing Tip Wong, and I searched through Melb Uni Vet and probably I skipped it by accident, as I couldn't find his name.

Few of people in my breed had patella surgeries done for their dogs, either hereditary or accidents, and I had talked to them too and all of them said no for surgery yet unless bad episodes keep happening.

Honestly, I had probably reading and researching about this from forum here (old postings) and it backed up a bit of my confidence with this issue. I respect all vets opinions, except that vet who jumped straight saying grade 4 (unfortunately, this vet or the clinic is where my dog's sister went for puppy school...I sincerely hope she is ok and not being told by the vet to do surgery too).

In conclusion, I think I have to go by my gut feeling of my dog...no surgery for now unless it's critical and she is in pain.

For arthritis issue, I guess if I feed her some join supplements hope this will ease the issue later on. And I read most older dogs will get arthritis in some points regardless?

The only worry is about the insurance. What's the best option to approach the insurance company?

Do I tell them my policy number and explain my case, or just closer to surgery?

[Loving my Oldies]

In conclusion, I think I have to go by my gut feeling of my dog...no surgery for now unless it's critical and she is in pain.

So glad to read that.

As for insurance, I have no experience, but a lot of others on DOL will be able to advise. My dogs are all too old to qualify for any cover.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Dame Danny's Darling

[_PL_]

When my Cavalier was about 18 months of age the vet diagnosed her with a Grade 2 Luxating Patella. She had shown no sign or symptoms of a dicky knee and the knee felt quite stable to me. Vet asked should he book her in for surgery and I said not until I saw some sign of her knee giving her grief.

This dog is now almost 10 years old and has still never shown any sign of having a luxating patella. I've been taking her to a vet closer to home for the last 7 years. I asked him what he thought of her knees without telling what the previous vet diagnosed. This current vet said her knees were stable and they have proven to be stable for all these years.

Thank god you have posted in this manner, cavNrott. I have been jumped on from a great height from time to time suggesting that, shock horror, vets might actually either not know what they are talking about or, even worse, thinking of their bank account.

It's like people getting into a lather because an animal is diagnosed with a heart murmur. 99% of animals, including the human animal, if they live long enough will have heart murmurs or heart problems most of which will not need medication or be controlled by medication.

Yes, good advice from both experienced Dolers :)

I'll echo DD and also say that to me, some LP grade diagnosis done by hand is, pointless, wrong or too 'by the book'.

eg One of our adopted seniors was taken to their family vet after a sudden seizure, the owners left later with no answers or tests re the seizure but booked in for an LP surgery on the tiny tiny 13yr old. They said they felt bad, very guilty and feeling like they had done wrong for not doing it already.

Of course the surgery was cancelled when they were able to think about it properly; and change vets.

No idea about insurance either but you'd not really be providing useful info as nobody seems to be able to give you the exact grade or recommended treatment. You'd only be able to confirm anything with a radiograph. In which case they would need to know.

[Monchichi]

Powerlegs, can radiograph show if there is an issue with luxating patella? apart from vet's hand diagnosis?

[Pjrt]

Sounds like you are a great Chi owner.

Apart from all the other advice, it sounds like you have made some sensible decisions.

I would also add be sure to keep your little one slim, and fit, as in good muscle tone. Extra weight will add to your dogs possibility of doing a critical injury to the knee, and stave off arthritic changes for a bit longer. Good muscle tone goes a long way to supporting the joint as well. Maybe also look at joint health supplements to support joint health for her lifetime.

[Rascalmyshadow]

My last foster poodle had a grade 4 luxating patella, we had him for 11 months and never in that time did we see him limp, skip or show any signs of being sore. He had numerous other health problems so we were at the vets at least once a month and none of the vets picked it up either, we only found out because he saw a Chiro for his shoulder.

He is now about 8 and so far still hasn't required surgery.

My pom x chi has a grade 1 luxating patella and never shows any signs of being sore ( only when it initially happened) and I certainly wouldn't be puting him through surgery.

[Loving my Oldies]

One of our adopted seniors was taken to their family vet after a sudden seizure, the owners left later with no answers or tests re the seizure but booked in for an LP surgery on the tiny tiny 13yr old. They said they felt bad, very guilty and feeling like they had done wrong for not doing it already.

Of course the surgery was cancelled when they were able to think about it properly; and change vets.

That makes me so angry and so upset for all the poor little dogs whose owners wouldn't have gone away to think about it, but, understandably thought the vet would act only in the interests of their dog. What is it about the F**k*ng human race that so many of them think it is okay for animals to suffer.

[Daisys Mum]

My Cavalier has had 2 LP surgeries... One was a grade 4 and the other was a grade 3, the reason why I decided to have it done was her knees were very unstable and it was affecting her lower spine. A lot of vets won't do surgery on a grade 1 or 2.... It was an easy decision for me to make because I could see how much it was affecting her day to day life and activities.

[cavNrott]

Monchichi. Wing Tip Wong may have retired from practice now. I heard he was still teaching at Werribee Vet Uni. though.

I can recommend Pete Laverty at the Melbourne Specialist Centre. He got my dog walking again when the local vet was unsure if this would ever happen. This dog walks runs and plays normally.

However I think your ideas are very sensible. I would not be rushing into any Patella surgery unless your dog had difficulty just being a dog and unless he indicated he was in pain.

Re: Insurance. If your dog was insured well before a diagnosis is recorded he will be covered. If not, call the insurance company and ask about the policy. You probably have the PDS so have a read and see what it says about cover.

[Monchichi]

Thank you everyone for your opinions, much appreciated.

Since i was researching the breed, i know LP is one of the issue with the breed, however chosing a reputable registered breeder will help on having sound and healthy dog, which i have until now. Unfortunately, accident does happen, as much as i want to blame myself not carefully looking after her, i cannot undo the time. And i don't think there is dog not liking doing zoomies.

Anyhow, since the seconds i got told of vet's diagnose, my brain scramblings on preventative treatments on at least prolong her surgery time or strengthen her join muscle.

So came up with bringing her to do swimming at Dog's pool....oh how i love the banner here in DOL ???? i brought her to Aquapaws swimming pool. I will bring her once a month, took 2 hours return driving from home to there...wish they are closer. In the between, if possible i bring her to Brighton dog beach and encouraged her to swim there....at least paddle up on the water.

Joint supplements are on my list, rose-hip vital canine is on its way, got sample from the company...yeaaayyy

I am tossing up between Sasha's blend and pernease powder too.

Also bone broth is added on her meal too! I think she has faaaarrr healthy meals than me!

Reduce weight also in my agenda, the past month by reducing 15gram out of her meal and limited her treats, she has shed 100gram. She is not overweight at the beginning either, just a bit over than her ideal weight...so but overweight?? ????

Insurance, yes i had her insured since the minute she left her breeder. I chose top level cover too, doh! She is not spoilt much....

I had read the fine print, but i will double check with friend of mine who is solicitor, he can transkate it into 'human' sentences for me maybe hahaha

Thanks once again everyone! Though if you have any other suggestion on how to further prevent her LP episodes, much appeeciated. Even if you have other treatments...please share ir pm me.

Oh, chiro....Rascalmyshadow, did you go to dog chiro ir human chiro. My chiro is more than happy to see my dog, but i haven't brought my dog to see him yet...just not 100% sure human chiro can help with dog chiro??

[ness]

Just a tip swimming isn't great exercise for luxating patella issues. Underwater treadmill is much better. Swimming doesn't replicate how they would use the joint on land and doesn't really build muscle in the appropriate areas.

[VizslaMomma]

Just a tip swimming isn't great exercise for luxating patella issues. Underwater treadmill is much better. Swimming doesn't replicate how they would use the joint on land and doesn't really build muscle in the appropriate areas.

I wonder if Dogs in Motion at Moorabbin might be of use then?

They have a treadmill.

:)

[Monchichi]

Oops....swimming not a good option?

[cavNrott]

About your chiro Monchichi. Unless he is very experienced with canine anatomy I would not let him touch your dog. If you want to go down the path of chiro I would go to the Vet, Barry Haywood. He's somewhere in the outer S or SE suburbs. Someone will chime in with his contact details I'm sure. I've lost mine.

Swimming is excellent non weight bearing exercise but it won't do much to help the patella issue though it will help your dog get fit but you would need to swim the dog more regularly. My Rottie was swimming three times a week after ACL surgery.

As VizslaMomma suggested, the treadmill in Moorabbin would be better and they also have an animal physiotherapist that you would consult with beforehand.

Edited April 17, 2015 by cavNrott

[Rascalmyshadow]

I take my dogs to a dog Chiro, his name is Barry Haywood he is in Cranbourne/Pearcedale. He is very gentle and has helped my dogs numerous times after injuries, I wouldn't let a human Chiro work onto dogs.

Continue to do the swimming it won't strengthen the knees since they usually do the paddling with the front legs but it will help keep your dog fit and lean.

Don't feel bad about your dog having an accident, Its an easy injury to do.