Bomb Proof Recall

[huski]

She does lovely heelwork as long as she knows there's a food reward in it for her. Otherwise - she nicks off.

The problem is more likely that she believes she needs to see reward, then produce behaviour to get it. My dogs always expect either a food or prey reward for heel work - but they know that their behaviour produces reward, not the other way around. They don't need to see reward, smell it, or know where it is, to believe I will give it to them if they 'make' me by giving me super work.

Edited April 21, 2015 by huski

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

The problem is more likely that she believes she needs to see reward, then produce behaviour to get it.

Could be right. So how would you transition to behaviour -> reward... for heel work.

I get short bursts for other rewards like toys/tugs/balls but not nearly as good as for food.

[The Spotted Devil]

Get the food off you Mrs RB! Be unpredictable! My dogs think I'm magical as I can race to a tree and there is a jackpot hidden there.

[VizslaMomma]

Rain made for great recall these last days....

[Stressmagnet]

I hear you, Mrs RB...

Ernie is like glue on my heels if he sees the reward, but forget it if he doesn't. I'm just hoping enough repetitions will do the trick.

And I'm not out of the habit of rewarding him EVERY time he comes when off lead - whether just 'checking in' or responding to a command.

Argh.

Kids are easier sometimes!!

[corvus]

I'd be more interested in what method huski is using to train recalls than whether or not it works on greyhounds. My dogs have been trained with the RRR method, which I encourage my clients to use as well, because I think it is easy and generally very effective. The hardest bit is knowing when not to recall your dogs. I expect that some dogs are a serious challenge for a fully conditioned recall. I seem to be perpetually chasing that last 2% with my spitz boy. We have just had a rabbit warren establish in a convenient location. Maybe I will finally get that last 2%. ;) Here's a little video taster for RRR:

[Shakti]

I agree - I would be fascinated to learn more from huski! I have looked at the RRR clips and am curious - does this work best when started on very young dogs AND when do you NOT recall using this method?

[Simply Grand]

Brooke, I think starting it with a young puppy makes it easier because baby puppies are generally keen to come to you anyway so it's easy to start the process, and because you are already into it by the time they start to gain independence they have less chance to rehearse NOT coming when called.

It will still work with older dogs though, you may just have to work harder at management and being worth coming to while you are building the conditioned response.

From what I can remember regarding when to use/not use this method, basically while you are building, reinforcing and rehearsing it you only want to use it when you are sure they will come to you, so basically when they are actually already on their way to you or you are sure they will call off whatever they are doing. And you want to be able to give them a great reward every time they do it to. You keep practicing it like that regularly and the time you really test it is when you really need it, when prior to the conditioning you wouldn't have expected them to come.

So I practice it quite often at the off leash park, when they are at some distance and are maybe sniffing around but there is nothing super exciting close enough to be really tempting, then I wait for a moment when they happen to turn around to look at me or turn to wander back over, then I start moving backwards/waving arms/something interesting and as soon as they make a move towards me I start my exciting "emergency" recall cue and encourage them in, with a jackpot reward when they get to me.

[Shakti]

Thanks so much for that explanation - very clear! It does sound like something I would love to learn more about so I guess off to Google I go!

[Simply Grand]

It's pretty cool when it works :) You can see when it clicks in too, even just in your practices because you eventually let them show less and less attention to you before you call, then you see the automatic whip around.

[VizslaMomma]

It's pretty cool when it works :) You can see when it clicks in too, even just in your practices because you eventually let them show less and less attention to you before you call, then you see the automatic whip around.

I swear that with Tibor his smile would get BIGGER as he came to me on this recall. He was beside himself with keeness to 'get' to my side.

Horrible Herbert is doing as well with this part of his training too.

Big advantage of a long back yard for pratice. When we had training a couple of months back, Herbert was the youngest of the other dogs but his recall was spot on, even in front of strangers.

[JulesP]

A friend of mine likes to take photos of the dogs running towards her. So we would call Amber when she was a pup to get her to run towards us. She thought it was a great game! No food treats involved. Think recall is her fav thing. In her formal recalls there is usually a leap of joy as she takes off.

This is her coming in as a pup. Lots of distractions around and she is coming away from the other dogs.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Evil hound actually did some of her lovely trick heelwork for a friend tonight at club who was just pretending to have a treat. Hmm...

It doesn't seem to matter if the treats are on me or not.

And I don't need them at all for some games - just the heelwork.

I just need to be more random and fun with the heelwork rewards and build up duration I guess.

But that's not really anything to do with the really reliable recall.

[Shakti]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh just so cute! Was she trained using RRR??

[JulesP]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh just so cute! Was she trained using RRR??

I don't do anything fancy :) First recalls would have been with me running backwards on lead. I build a lot of value for me when they are puppies though. And I am very careful not to break the recall with calling them if they aren't going to come (normally only bath time :) ).

[huski]

Evil hound actually did some of her lovely trick heelwork for a friend tonight at club who was just pretending to have a treat. Hmm...

It doesn't seem to matter if the treats are on me or not.

And I don't need them at all for some games - just the heelwork.

I just need to be more random and fun with the heelwork rewards and build up duration I guess.

But that's not really anything to do with the really reliable recall.

If she was pretending to have treats her body language would have been cueing the dog to think that. I don't like to 'lie' to my dogs or try to trick them into thinking I have reward on me when I don't. Dogs aren't silly, and they will realise we are lying to them and this can cause a lot of engagement problems especially in heel work (ETA this is getting OT so may need its own thread! :) )

Edited April 23, 2015 by huski

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I dunno if training related to recall is so different to training related to heelwork.

It's all in what's rewarding for the dog.

Given my dog will also work for attention, and chase games, and tug, and butt rubs...

And even tho I might have great food on me - that doesn't guarantee a recall with her...

I'm wondering if the whole food thing is sort of a cue for work. So the cue that looked like food but wasn't... that was the cue.

I will have to experiment with that. Evil hound did get a treat for working with my friend - when I got back.

[corvus]

I was trying to find a good video of what the RRR looks like when it's in a finished or near finished state. It's impressive. Unfortunately, all of mine are of pups still learning, so they are a bit slow. I usually expect to see mine whirl on the spot when recalled and canter directly back to me with a fair bit of enthusiasm. The spitz boy often rears back when he whirls, and does a big exaggerated bound to get him started, and usually has a huge grin on his face. He is a joyous dog, and recalls are just another thing to be joyous about, 98% of the time. He made it a hobby for a while to try to provoke emergency recalls, because he doesn't seem like the brightest crayon in the box, but he's hiding a significant intellect behind the vacantly happy looks. We were able to railroad that by recalling him before he could get that evil twinkle in his eye, but you still have to watch him sometimes. He gets mischievous. Which is why we like spitz dogs.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

We were able to railroad that by recalling him before he could get that evil twinkle in his eye, but you still have to watch him sometimes. He gets mischievous. Which is why we like spitz dogs.

I always thought that was a bit of remnant dingo in my dog - but maybe she's got a bit of spitz too...

[huski]

I dunno if training related to recall is so different to training related to heelwork.

It's all in what's rewarding for the dog.

Given my dog will also work for attention, and chase games, and tug, and butt rubs...

And even tho I might have great food on me - that doesn't guarantee a recall with her...

I'm wondering if the whole food thing is sort of a cue for work. So the cue that looked like food but wasn't... that was the cue.

I will have to experiment with that. Evil hound did get a treat for working with my friend - when I got back.

There are a lot of things we do that can be a concomitant cue to the dog, like putting your joggers on before you go for a walk. The same principle can apply when training things like heel work or even a recall. If you don't look like the person you usually do when the dog predicts reward is going to happen (i.e. holding your hand a certain way to make it look like you have food) they will likely turn off.

We can use these things to our advantage in training, or they can become a disadvantage if we don't recognize what cues the dog is reading as predictors to reward.