Bomb Proof Recall

[Roova]

The book also mentions creating 'setups' along the way so you can see how well you're doing. Any failed setups and you need to repeat the beginning steps again. At least then it's easy to tell if you're moving too fast or your dog isn't understanding as well as you think he is.

There's no set time frame for the recall to start becoming successful, every dog is different. Persistence pays off though!

It might be worth mixing up the treats or finding if a game with a toy works well, always keep him guessing what fun thing you'll have for him. Maybe keep the awesome treats and toy for only recall training so it stays special.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Roova

[Shakti]

I totally back Huski's confidence in both her abilities and in the psychology of dogtraining that underpins her training methods.

Funny how some people are prouder of their dog's inability to learn or their inability to teach than they are willing to ask *How do you do that? Show me -teach me!

[VizslaMomma]

Um, before this escalates, I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I don't have a DVD player (gasp!) so I'll have to miss out on what seems to be an excellent resource.

However, you've given me some great ideas. I'm going to head out with Ernie this arvo with a pocket full of cheese and train him to come to the 'cheese' command. He's already figured out I cannot chase him with my knee - so 'come' has already become ingrained in his wily head as 'come if you want a treat'. In other words, optional. I really like the idea of making the command so hard wired that he salivates. So cheese it is.

But but BUT.... do I have news for you. You can get it as an ebook!!!!!

Amazon have it. It's Kindle format. But if you do not have Kindle, there is also a free app for smart phones & iphones....

[Stressmagnet]

Ok. I took Ernie to the off leash park today with some CHEESE.

Every time he circled back to check in with me, I said 'here' as he was on his way - and gave him a tiny cube of cheese. I only did it about 3 times and he came back the last 2 times to the word 'here'.

But, obviously, I haven't followed the steps - it was more an experiment to see how quickly I could get him to associate the word 'here' with this new unbearably yummy treat he'd never had before.

So tomorrow is a new day. I've got the ebook and I'm gonna try the program. I'll continue taking him to safe off leads, and use 'come' when I just want him to follow me and save 'here' for the programme. I'm quite looking forward to this.

[HazyWal]

I totally back Huski's confidence in both her abilities and in the psychology of dogtraining that underpins her training methods.

Funny how some people are prouder of their dog's inability to learn or their inability to teach than they are willing to ask *How do you do that? Show me -teach me!

And isn't it funny how some people think they know a breed better than someone who actually owns one and has years of experience and knowledge in said breed? I wouldn't call it being proud of an inability to learn but moreso knowing that your dog is in danger of being seriously injured or killed off lead, I call that responsible ownership and understanding the breed you own

[Cosmolo]

I have trained a lot of dogs to recall- various breeds, ages etc. My Jack Russell Terrier has an exceptional recall. I strongly believe the principles in Really Reliable Recalls are extremely successful with the vast majority of dogs.

However- there have been situations where the number of conditioned repetitions required are either impossible or impractical and not because the owner is unwilling to put in the work (although of course there are times where this is a problem).

At that point the owner (in consultation with the trainer) needs to decide whether they are willing AND whether it is in the dogs best interest to utilise a remote training collar to teach a reliable recall.

In addition to these factors there is also a risk- reward element and i understand that many sighthound owners basically say that the risk of an error (that could quickly result in serious injury or death due to the speed of the dogs involved) is not offset by the ability to free run the dog.

[huski]

In addition to these factors there is also a risk- reward element and i understand that many sighthound owners basically say that the risk of an error (that could quickly result in serious injury or death due to the speed of the dogs involved) is not offset by the ability to free run the dog.

If the owner doesn't want to train a recall for whatever reason, that is their choice and doesn't mean training their dog isn't possible. Obviously training can only take place if the owner is willing and wants to commit to whatever training program is the best option for getting them the results they want.

Even if you never intend to let your dog off leash, accidents can happen and I would rather give my dog the best chance at staying out of harms way by training a recall as best I could. That's JMO - people obviously choose to do what they feel is best for them and their dog.

But for owners who come to us for training and say "I want to achieve a reliable recall with my dog" there isn't one we would turn away based on breed or fail to get results for if they commit to their training program.

Edited April 19, 2015 by huski

[HazyWal]

I have trained a lot of dogs to recall- various breeds, ages etc. My Jack Russell Terrier has an exceptional recall. I strongly believe the principles in Really Reliable Recalls are extremely successful with the vast majority of dogs.

However- there have been situations where the number of conditioned repetitions required are either impossible or impractical and not because the owner is unwilling to put in the work (although of course there are times where this is a problem).

At that point the owner (in consultation with the trainer) needs to decide whether they are willing AND whether it is in the dogs best interest to utilise a remote training collar to teach a reliable recall.

In addition to these factors there is also a risk- reward element and i understand that many sighthound owners basically say that the risk of an error (that could quickly result in serious injury or death due to the speed of the dogs involved) is not offset by the ability to free run the dog.

Great post Cosmolo thank you.

[Cosmolo]

Huski i don't think you understand the point i am trying to make. Something may be theoretically possible but a trainer/ owner may decide that the risk- reward ratio is not worthwhile. So saying it's possible doesn't really matter when the risk to the dog is so high that it's believed to not be in the dogs best interest.

Using a completely different example- if you have a dog come to you with serious aggression issues, whilst training a reliable recall is certainly possible the owner or trainer may deem it not in the dog or the community's best interest for that dog to ever be publicly off lead so whilst you might train the recall in controlled contexts on private land having a 100% of the time recall across a broad range of contexts is unlikely because you are so limited in what contexts you can safely expose that particular dog to. Do you know what i mean?

With regards to turning clients away or failing to get results- we don't do that either. But we certainly make sure their expectations are realistic and explain what would need to be done to get that reliability. A small breed dog with a history of running away and self rewarding and limited alternate motivation is a classic example of a dog where the number of classically conditioned recall repetitions required to achieve reliability may literally outstrip what that dog can eat. Do i say to the client- no we can't train your dog to recall? Or blame their level of commitment when it's still not where it needs to be? No- i tell them that to get what they want they may need to go down the RT route. If the dog is not temperamentally suited to this kind of training then we talk about adjusting expectations- that's not a failure to get results IMO.

[huski]

I do understand what you're saying - and a professional needs to design a training program suitable to their clients needs. An RT may be a great option for a dog, but if the owner doesn't want to use that method then it's up to the trainer to make another program for them and ensure that regardless of the program set, the owner understands what is required to achieve their goals.

When I say training only works if the owners put the time in, I mean they are 1/3 of the team (the dog, the trainer and them). the trainer is responsible for giving them a program they can easily implement, but the owner has to have to have the commitment to see it through.

I feel this is getting a bit semantical given that my original post simply said I don't accept that some breeds cannot be trained to recall - I am sure you agree with that as the general statement. As the owner of a sibe and beagle I've heard too many times "oh but it's not possible with my dog because it's xx breed". People said it to me about my own dogs - until I did it... :)

Edited April 19, 2015 by huski

[Cosmolo]

Of course i have heard it many times and disagreed many times! That we certainly agree on :)

But i just think it's too simplistic to say that every dog can be taught a reliable recall. There are many factors and sometimes not many safe and appropriate options.

[huski]

Of course i have heard it many times and disagreed many times! That we certainly agree on :)

But i just think it's too simplistic to say that every dog can be taught a reliable recall. There are many factors and sometimes not many safe and appropriate options.

I think varying factors can impact on the options you have to approach training a recall, but (semantically) that doesn't make it impossible.

[Cosmolo]

Agree to disagree- sometimes those factors do make it impossible.

[Simply Grand]

Stressy, sound like you are doing great. My 'puter savvy friend is coming to stay in a week and a half so I'll see if she can help me make a digital copy of Really Reliable Recall to email you (and of course we will pay the licencing fee to the production company ;) ). Watching it really goes beyond someone explaining it in writing.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

So for the other kind of recall...

Based on Susan Garrett's methods - which work quite well for my dog tho do mess with her head somewhat...

She has a rule "only reward average or better performance" - ie no rewarding the crap stuff. Which is not how you do the classically conditioned recall (or slobber at the sight of the yogurt tub).

And she's always "building the value" (setting up the dog for success, and rewarding at a high rate) then "testing the value", ie setting the dog up for a planned failure (adding a distraction that the dog might be tempted by, eg bowl of food that the dog needs to ignore to get to you on recall).

If the dog falls for that - you reset and start over. Sometimes you have to put a lid on the food but my dog gets really "embarrassed" when I reset her and tends not to fall for the distraction a second time - if the environment is sufficiently well controlled. Eg I can catch her in the yard, but it's not so easy at the beach.

So with my start line stay and release - which works really well as a recall for me - because the reward is with me (my hat)... if she moves her feet... I laugh at her and put her back and we start over with no fun game of chase me until she can hold her feet in place no matter what I do. So she's pretty close to rock solid at this, with any distraction I can throw at her. She's even managed to stay put when another dog in the line has gotten up, done a play bow at her, then sat on her. Cos what I've got is better than that. And the more twitchy I am, trying to fake her out - the better her stay is and the more fun she's having doing it because she doesn't know just when she will get to "pounce".

Ie the people who are trying to get their dog to stay and eliminating all the distractions get a dog that's crap at staying.

Hence making distractions part of your recall gets you a better recall (easiest thing for me is a bowl of food - often the same one she's going to get the reward from if she's successful).

The worst thing you can do is be the vending machine of treats, and taken for granted. The pokie machine model works much better.

And all that - is quite different to the classically conditioned recall. Eg a dog might fail this recall if something really distracting goes by - like maybe - a horse and buggy. Or a kiteboarder. Or a dolphin. Or the lady that dishes out 3 minutes worth of roast chicken treats.

So - if you're training the brilliant recall - use a different word or signal than the classically conditioned recall.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Simply Grand]

Sorry MrsRB but I don't think you are correctly understanding a classically conditioned recall. A classically conditioned response is an automatic, subconscious response. It takes time, effort and consistency to condition but once it has become a conditioned response distractions do not matter. The dog doesn't notice any of those things.

Classical conditioning without the correct reinforcement is subject to extinction and if the response is not properly conditioned it will not work, which is why I caution against taking a written interpretation of a full demonstrated explanation of how to condition it, but basically if your dog (or any animal) is not responding automatically to your cue the the response has not actually been classically conditioned.

ETA - I'm not saying a classically conditioned recall is the only option but if you can successfully train and maintain it it is pretty damn reliable. As I said previously though, I only have it with my oldest dog, my other two have a really good recall but it isn't the automatic response I see in Saxon in response to his conditioned cue. Not to say I couldn't get it in all of them, I just haven't done the work.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Sorry MrsRB but I don't think you are correctly understanding a classically conditioned recall. (snip)

Hi Simply grand

That's why my post before yours is called "the other kind of recall" and it is less reliable than the classically conditioned one. But it's more fun. I'm more likely to do that kind of training. It's the one you use your other recall word not the emergency recall word...

Classically conditioned responses are hard to train especially ones that don't happen naturally for the dog (against instinct). Hence classically conditioned slobbering - I can get that fast and reliably.

[Cosmolo]

I don't find classically conditioned responses hard to train- the only challenge is the number of repetitions required which can vary from dog to dog. Of my 4 current dogs- 2 were trained using more traditional recall training methods and 2 were trained using CC methods. Interestingly, the two trained traditionally have MUCH easier training personalities and SHOULD have the better recalls. But they don't. The terrier and the tricky ACD have the best recalls and they were classically conditioned.

[Simply Grand]

And all that - is quite different to the classically conditioned recall. Eg a dog might fail this recall if something really distracting goes by - like maybe - a horse and buggy. Or a kiteboarder. Or a dolphin. Or the lady that dishes out 3 minutes worth of roast chicken treats.

So - if you're training the brilliant recall - use a different word or signal than the classically conditioned recall.

Oh, sorry MrsRB, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying above! Did you mean that the other recall you are talking about is the one that may fail if something distracting goes by?

I took it as you saying the classically conditioned recall is the one that may fail under distraction and the one you are talking about is the brilliant recall you refer to but I could have got it back to front.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

hi Simply Grand

The classically conditioned recall should not fail. If it does fail - the training is incomplete.

The other kind - it's called "brilliant" by Susan Garrett, is not the same. And I think a running cat would fail it for my dog. Sometimes a running possum will but we've had a bit more practice with those - if they're far enough away we're good but otherwise... oh dear. And crows... she hates crows. And those kinds of distractions are hard to incorporate into training sessions. They just refuse to co-operate.

The other kind of training - actually works better if you only reward the best performances - once the dog understands the task. Which does my head in. So we've got great results with the start line stay, and release. And seriously crap results with heel work (cos I've never managed to fade the treats or even reduce them)... She does lovely heelwork as long as she knows there's a food reward in it for her. Otherwise - she nicks off.