Unknown Dogs Approaching Each Other To Greet

[Simply Grand]

Another thing I've been pondering.

It's come up often in discussions about off leash area interactions that it is inappropriate to allow a dog to go up to another dog without the owner being asked if it is ok. Some people have said they would kick a dog away if it approached theirs without their permission and it has been said that dogs naturally only want to interact with their own pack members and selected known dogs, not with unknown dogs, and have no need to play with dogs outside their pack.

I spend a lot of time in off leash areas and have in a range of different localities now. I tend to walk around in off leash parks and my dogs follow along generally pretty close to me. Within reason, I let them decide for themselves where they want to go, what they want to sniff, and which other dogs they want to approach (disclaimer - there are plenty of circumstances where I call them close to me and don't let them approach based on cues from other dogs, people and my own judgement. I never make them greet or interact with another dog if they don't want to and if another dog or owner seems uncomfortable I will call them away.)

My observation has been that across the board in the places I've been to when the dogs are left to make their own decisions nearly all dogs will approach the other dogs they come across and engage in greeting behaviour, sniffing and checking each other out, even when they haven't met before or do not know each other well.

It seems to depend on the dogs where things go from there, often they will both just move on once they've sniffed hello, some will initiate a game with some dogs, sometimes there is a bit of posturing and sometimes if one dog is being rude or over the top there will be a bit of one telling the other to calm down but generally appropriate dog interactions controlled by the dogs.

I get that not all dogs will be appropriate and there are some dogs who should not be given the opportunity to decide for themselves but it seems to me from my informal study that the natural behaviour of stable domestic dogs is actually to approach other dogs and interact with them.

Thoughts? Do you let your dog approach others? How do you handle unknown dogs approaching yours?

* I am talking about in off leash areas, not dogs illegally off leash that approach yours on leash.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Dame Aussie]

I'd say you're right in general but the assumption here is that the dogs you allow yours to approach are stable. I'd prefer not to take the risk, it seems sensible not to take a dog aggressive dog to an off lead dog park but people do it all the time for different reasons.

[huski]

I don't really think about it because I don't take my dogs to places like dog parks.

I am happy for my dogs to greet and interact with dogs I know, but I see no purpose or benefit to my dogs greeting strange dogs.

[Simply Grand]

I certainly don't think it disadvantages dogs necessarily not to greet strange dogs but seeing as they appear to choose to do it when given the opportunity presumably it has some value to them.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Weasels]

I generally let my dogs choose who they want to say hi to, with the exception of leashed dogs which I call them away from. If approached I leave Weez to his own devices because he's pretty large and has good dog social skills but I manage Chess's interactions more closely because she thinks she's people and doesn't speak dog well.

[Simply Grand]

I generally let my dogs choose who they want to say hi to, with the exception of leashed dogs which I call them away from. If approached I leave Weez to his own devices because he's pretty large and has good dog social skills but I manage Chess's interactions more closely because she thinks she's people and doesn't speak dog well.

Yes, I think that's an important thing to understand and acknowledge about your own dogs. I step in and decide for Riley much more frequently than the other two because he is not exactly a natural with other dogs.

[Stressmagnet]

I call Ernie away from leashed dogs in off leashed area. There's usually a very good reason someone keeps their dog leashed in a known off leash park.

I will let him decide if he wants to meet other off leash dogs. He's a friendly soul and he's good at polite hellos. It's interesting to watch him check out dogs. His stance and posture can tell me a lot about whether the other dog is stable. There have been times he has chosen to ignore a new dog and I taken that as my cue to move along quick smart and avoid.

[huski]

I certainly don't think it disadvantages dogs necessarily not to greet strange dogs but seeing as they appear to choose to do it when given the opportunity presumably it has some value to them.

Do you value every person you say hello to?

There are lots of things my dogs would choose to do if left to their own devices, but that doesn't mean they are beneficial or appropriate or valuable to me.

ETA: also, many people raise their dogs to have a high value for other dogs. Of course these dogs will want to greet other dogs because they have developed value for them. Dogs that aren't raised to have this value for other dogs may be less likely to show interest in a strange dog.

Edited April 6, 2015 by huski

[Simply Grand]

Whether people want to let their dogs greet unknown dogs is up to them, I'm not saying everyone should, just observing that it seems to be a natural behaviour, not as some have said (not you huski), something that dogs don't want to do or that is inappropriate behaviour.

Whether or not I get value from saying hello to people (which I would actually say I generally do get a positive feeling from) is different because I am constrained by the human idea of politeness whereas dogs aren't.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Stressmagnet]

.....

ETA: also, many people raise their dogs to have a high value for other dogs. Of course these dogs will want to greet other dogs because they have developed value for them. Dogs that aren't raised to have this value for other dogs may be less likely to show interest in a strange dog.

Is this a bad thing?

I want Ernie to enjoy other dogs company. He appears to be quite social. Now that he's learned to be polite - why would I deprive him of a spontaneous game of chasey round the oval?

I'm not arguing, I'm trying to understand if I'm going about this wrong. Off leash, he stays close unless he's playing - and even then, I've trained him to regularly 'check in' with me - which he does without fail. I can call him out of a game easily so I still I rate higher value then the new dog.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Stressmagnet

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

There is a sophisticated greeting ritual that well brought up dogs know but lots of puppy mill specials do not know and lots of gun dog retreivers ignore.

It involves paying attention to whether the other dog wants to say hello and acting accoridngly. My dog - having spent the first few weeks of her life - with her litter and at the AWL - with other dogs and she's a herding mix - is a master at it.

She will run up indirectly in an arc or just not quite at but nearer to the dog she wants to greet and she watches it. If it starts looking away and licking, she does too, she slows down, sniffs the ground wanders off in an arc around them or she might drop and crawl if she thinks she can encourage it to change it's mind about saying hello. With the really timid dogs - she will also roll over.

But it's a completely different story with the curly coat poodle crosses. They barge straight up to her and get right in her face no matter what she says about wanting or not wanting to greet - and she chomps them for their trouble. She's a wee bit better off lead but it depends on the dog. If it's on lead and pulling at her and staring at her - I don't let her say hello because it's going to be painful - for the other dog.

She was taught that to repell a giant poodle x that will bite your bum if not repelled, that you have to growl a lot and nip quite hard on the bum. By my brother's rude dog. Unfortunately I find that behaviour unacceptable by both dogs but my brother thinks I should let them sort it out. Bad idea - because every dog at the park suffers for the next 6 months while I try to explain to her they're not all like my brother's dog. Which isn't helped by the fact that a lot of them are exactly like his dog. No manners. Rough uninvited play. If the rude dog was a human - it would be arrested.

Rude dogs. Here's two links that explain it very well.

why herding dogs hate labs

https://sarahwilsondogexpert.com/why-does-my-herding-dog-seem-to-hate-labs/

he just wants to say hi

http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/he-just-wants-say-hi

I try not to let her greet on lead dogs at the park and the beach. She's gotten away with it at the beach a few times. And there's been a few where she's agreed with me - that it's a really bad idea and come back to me instead of attempting a grovelly greeting.

If I see the dog first, I call her back and put her on lead until we're welll past. Same with people walking with no dog, or women with headscarfs (most of them are terrified of dogs), and curly coat dogs.

Bizarrely she is fine with all the curly coat dogs she met before she was 2yo, and sometimes I see her look at a curly coat dog that looks like one of her friends and then go off when she works out it isn't.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Diva]

Mine are happpy to meet off leash but act a bit indifferent. Sniff, maybe playbow, but happy to move on. I think such encounters on neutral turf are no big deal to them. On leash with an approaching off lead dog can be different, but they gave been attacked in that scenario so no wonder.

[Simply Grand]

Mrs RB, has your girl met any curly coat poodle crosses who do have good, stable dog manners and who she can interact politely with? I get that some of them can be silly and inappropriate but some behave appropriately like dogs too.

Saxon (6kg curly poodle x) very rarely has a problem with dogs of all shapes and sizes because he does understand dog language and interact appropriately. He does not approach all dogs, some he judges as best avoided (probably yours from the sound of it TBH) but if he and the other dog mutually approach he behaves the same as any other dog.

ETA -I think part of my definition of a "stable, polite dog" is that it can deal appropriately with all types of dogs as long as they are also being appropriate regardless of clashing styles or past experiences.

That is not saying that they have to play or interact for long, just be able to be near them and deal with an interaction if it happens. And it is definitely NOT saying that a dog I don't class as stable and polite is a bad dog, plenty of dogs that require a bit more management are still great dogs, just not the type who should be given the type of free reign I'm talking about to make decisions about which other dogs they greet (hence my approach to Riley).

Edited April 6, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Simply Grand]

.....

ETA: also, many people raise their dogs to have a high value for other dogs. Of course these dogs will want to greet other dogs because they have developed value for them. Dogs that aren't raised to have this value for other dogs may be less likely to show interest in a strange dog.

Is this a bad thing?

I want Ernie to enjoy other dogs company. He appears to be quite social. Now that he's learned to be polite - why would I deprive him of a spontaneous game of chasey round the oval?

I'm not arguing, I'm trying to understand if I'm going about this wrong. Off leash, he stays close unless he's playing - and even then, I've trained him to regularly 'check in' with me - which he does without fail. I can call him out of a game easily so I still I rate higher value then the new dog.

Just noticed, I know you didn't mean to but it looks like you were quoting me but it was actually huski that said the bit you've quoted :)

I think it depends on what YOU want for your dog Stressy. I do think it's important to train your dog to value you highest, as you have, so you can get them back whenever you need to (oh those poor people who chase their dog around the park for 20 mins trying to catch them to go home!) but if they do enjoy other dogs and behave appropriately I personally think it's fine to let them enjoy a play when you decide they can.

Mine have pretty low value for other dogs compared to other things, which I didn't really intentionally train but is more a side effect of focussing on building really high value for me, and maybe just how they are, but obviously I am happy for them to get whatever they get out of interacting with other dogs.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Simply Grand

[huski]

.....

ETA: also, many people raise their dogs to have a high value for other dogs. Of course these dogs will want to greet other dogs because they have developed value for them. Dogs that aren't raised to have this value for other dogs may be less likely to show interest in a strange dog.

Is this a bad thing?

I want Ernie to enjoy other dogs company. He appears to be quite social. Now that he's learned to be polite - why would I deprive him of a spontaneous game of chasey round the oval?

I'm not arguing, I'm trying to understand if I'm going about this wrong. Off leash, he stays close unless he's playing - and even then, I've trained him to regularly 'check in' with me - which he does without fail. I can call him out of a game easily so I still I rate higher value then the new dog.

It's not bad if you still have the highest value and there's no negative effect on his behavior.

But many people set out to make their dogs love other dogs and end up with a lot of trouble - dogs who can't control themselves if they see another dog, dogs that value other dogs more than the owner or any reward they have etc.

I personally set out to raise my dogs to see other dogs as something that isn't super exciting. That's not to say they dislike other dogs, they just don't find them particularly valuable or interesting. there is no purpose for me in making my dogs have a lot of value for something that 1) I can't control and 2) will be a distraction they need to overcome later on in training

[Brookestar]

There is a sophisticated greeting ritual that well brought up dogs know but lots of puppy mill specials do not know and lots of gun dog retreivers ignore.

It involves paying attention to whether the other dog wants to say hello and acting accoridngly. My dog - having spent the first few weeks of her life - with her litter and at the AWL - with other dogs and she's a herding mix - is a master at it.

She will run up indirectly in an arc or just not quite at but nearer to the dog she wants to greet and she watches it. If it starts looking away and licking, she does too, she slows down, sniffs the ground wanders off in an arc around them or she might drop and crawl if she thinks she can encourage it to change it's mind about saying hello. With the really timid dogs - she will also roll over.

But it's a completely different story with the curly coat poodle crosses. They barge straight up to her and get right in her face no matter what she says about wanting or not wanting to greet - and she chomps them for their trouble. She's a wee bit better off lead but it depends on the dog. If it's on lead and pulling at her and staring at her - I don't let her say hello because it's going to be painful - for the other dog.

She was taught that to repell a giant poodle x that will bite your bum if not repelled, that you have to growl a lot and nip quite hard on the bum. By my brother's rude dog. Unfortunately I find that behaviour unacceptable by both dogs but my brother thinks I should let them sort it out. Bad idea - because every dog at the park suffers for the next 6 months while I try to explain to her they're not all like my brother's dog. Which isn't helped by the fact that a lot of them are exactly like his dog. No manners. Rough uninvited play. If the rude dog was a human - it would be arrested.

Rude dogs. Here's two links that explain it very well.

why herding dogs hate labs

https://sarahwilsondogexpert.com/why-does-my-herding-dog-seem-to-hate-labs/

he just wants to say hi

http://www.suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/he-just-wants-say-hi

I try not to let her greet on lead dogs at the park and the beach. She's gotten away with it at the beach a few times. And there's been a few where she's agreed with me - that it's a really bad idea and come back to me instead of attempting a grovelly greeting.

If I see the dog first, I call her back and put her on lead until we're welll past. Same with people walking with no dog, or women with headscarfs (most of them are terrified of dogs), and curly coat dogs.

Bizarrely she is fine with all the curly coat dogs she met before she was 2yo, and sometimes I see her look at a curly coat dog that looks like one of her friends and then go off when she works out it isn't.

Could not agree more with all you have said. It never ceases to amaze me how many rude dogs are out them, running and just jumping on top of other dogs and the owners call it playing and being friendly. It would be the equivalent of a human running and fully leaping feet off the ground and bear hugging a complete stranger, in the middle of a shopping centre, and you are right they would be arrested.

[JulesP]

My dogs do not particularly want to meet other dogs. It would be pretty dodgy if a sheep dog decided to play with the other dogs when it was supposed to be rounding up sheep!

They very, very rarely approach other dogs first. They like some little poodles that we see sometimes on walks. But they would rather smooch pats from the owner.

[Stressmagnet]

Sorry SG!

I noticed in the 6 months of knowing Ernie, he's progressed from being a rude youngster who jumped on other dogs in greeting - to a much more respectful fellow. I attribute that to two things: 1) I refused to let him meet dogs when he behaved like a buffoon. I would simply 'uh-uh' and walk on, letting him turn back mournfully. After a while he got the message - no rude bumpkin behaviour. 2) off leash corrections by other dogs. I've seen him be corrected beautifully by a husky/GSD Cross - she tolerated a bit of sniffing but when he went too far, he got a firm nip on the bum. Treats her with respectful adoration, now. I'm happy for him to get corrected by other dogs when he's an idiot, it's part of how he learns and I cannot teach him that. I've had owners apologise and I've been ok with a growl or a nip on his bum when the play got too rough. He in turn, is teaching his rather rude best mate - an Anerican Cocker whos about his age - the same manners.

I read the article on labs and herding dogs and yes, it's true, despite the superior tone. Labs have been bred to be friendly. People arent nervous around then and will happily accept him coming up to say hello, tail wagging furiously. But due to his experiences in off leash areas with GSDs (as an example), he's much more respectful of personal dog space - hence the waiting and watching. Dogs he meets, he waits and studies them, and then goes off for a greet. Unstable dogs are things he stays sways from. I'm totally happy he's that way, and I think most of his learning how to be a proper gentleman has come about through socialising off lead in a dog walk area. It's not like I live in a house with every breed of dog so he can experiment.

After owning a dog aggressive breed, this is the dog I chose next. I never ever want to feel that clutch at the back of my throat every time I leash my dog for a walk.

[Stressmagnet]

Just to add:

Labs and lab crosses (Oodles) seem to be owned by a LOT of first time dog owners who think, because a labrador is friendly - they don't need to teach it anything. They're just stupid and on behalf of Labradors everywhere, I apologise.

[Kirislin]

I always put my 2 boys (whippets) on leash until we know the dog, and sometimes if I know the dog I will leash the boys because they are bullies. If a dog shows the slightest timidity they'll bark to make it run, and then they give chase. They love it, but no one else does. That's their one vice and I do my very best to avoid it happening.