Greyhound Carcasses Found In Bundaberg Bushland

[Maddy]

Yes you can compare Australia to other countries with regards to the Greyhound Racing Industry as there are many parallels in the issues that beset this industry in the countries, including Australia, where greyhound racing is operating.

Even if the industry went underground if shutdown, it will not be run on the scale it is currently. The industry is already in decline and opposition to this industry is growing louder, so the winds of change are blowing head-on towards this industry and I believe it is only a matter of time before it ceases to exist. Whether that is through govt legislation or becoming financially unviable with govts no longer willing to prop it up, remains to be seen. In the meantime thousands of greyhounds will continue to suffer and be killed en-masse each year this industry continues operating.

You can't compare the Australian industry to the US industry because they were set up in entirely different ways and in closing them down, there are completely different issues to address.

I accept that we have different points of view. But nobody has explained how the scale of the current problem would get worse, not better. More than 12000+ dogs every year die now - probably closer to 14000. Are you saying more than 14000 dogs would die annually if the sport was banned? Nobody explained how this could occur.

You have to provide some evidence for your numbers. Plucking numbers from sites that have themselves taken numbers from "estimates" provided by anti racing groups doesn't cut it.

That aside, there are far worse things than being put to sleep by a vet (as the majority of destroyed greys are). There is slow starvation, being shot by an unskilled shooter or clubbed to death. There is being left with serious, untreated injuries or let loose in the bush to die slowly from thirst, hunger or cold. Those are things that have to be considered, especially when you're talking about taking away peoples' livelihoods.

But anyway, no offense Greyt, but after my experience of trying to discuss the issue with you in the previous thread, I'm afraid I won't be answering you again. You complain when people don't address specific points of yours while pointedly ignoring replies from others that rebut your claims.

[HazyWal]

Labadore with respect, and believe me my patience is running out, you have absolutely NFI what goes on with greyhounds, by your own admission. You are questioning people like myself and Maddy that have been at the coalface for many years. You don't want to listen and you don't want to learn...why?

[Rebanne]

Hmm, I suppose greys may become a restricted breed. If their owners are so irresponsible and won't meet meet the demands of their environment, there is precedent.

I think you mean some of the owners.

[moosmum]

Hmm, I suppose greys may become a restricted breed. If their owners are so irresponsible and won't meet meet the demands of their environment, there is precedent.

I think you mean some of the owners.

Yes, I do. But we are all seeing how members of any group are tarred with the same brush.

And that the "cure" is usualy elimination. Almost impossible to influence an exclusive group from out side. Theres no avenue to bring environmental influence to bear, so its not about what can be brought to the table but what can be removed from it.

[Greyt]

@ Maddy,

You are right about the numbers. The Greyhound racing industry does not publish them. The RSPCA estimates that 16000 die per year but I don't accept that number either as it is equal to the number that are whelped.

A lack of transparency is one of the reasons organisations like the RSPCA are able to estimate numbers on the high side and people will take what they read on the RSPCA website as gospel.

If, you Maddy will feel better, I can make sure that any future reference to numbers that I make include the following - the RSPCA estimate the number of dogs bred every year that never receive registration for racing and are considered by the industry to be wastage is 7000. "These dogs are described by the industry as 'wastage'. The RSPCA believes this is a disgusting term to describe the lives of sentient, companion animals." and they estimate 9000 adult dogs become surplus to industry needs every year and that about 1000 are adopted annually and over 650 are sent overseas.

For the record, I think it was HazyWal who asked me in a previous thread that you participated in where I got my numbers from and I put forward the RSPCA numbers then too.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Greyt

[gapvic]

I don't think the "1000 are adopted annually" is anywhere near correct. The figures also don't take into account all the retired dogs sitting on their racing owners couches, or those retained for breeding. I've got three greyhounds at home that don't make it into any of those figures reported. The export figures should be correct though as they are published by GA.

GAP Vic will adopt around 700 greyhounds this year. I'm sure that every other greyhound rehoming agency across Australia will adopt more than a combined 300. I read on Facebook that Greyhound Rescue adopt more greyhounds than any industry funded group, so if that's true then the annual adoption figures should be well over 1000.

[m-j]

I don't think the "1000 are adopted annually" is anywhere near correct. The figures also don't take into account all the retired dogs sitting on their racing owners couches, or those retained for breeding. I've got three greyhounds at home that don't make it into any of those figures reported. The export figures should be correct though as they are published by GA.

GAP Vic will adopt around 700 greyhounds this year. I'm sure that every other greyhound rehoming agency across Australia will adopt more than a combined 300. I read on Facebook that Greyhound Rescue adopt more greyhounds than any industry funded group, so if that's true then the annual adoption figures should be well over 1000.

Yes the few dogs I've adopted out and the three currently with me aren't registered anywhere as being rehomed, and I know of quite few others the same, either with their owners or they were given to someone else.

As far as warehousing dogs go, the kennel that I worked at did not kennel the spelling dogs as kennelled dogs are labour intensive. They were kept in yards individually with a kennel and shelter in it and while they didn't get as much human attention as the kennelled dogs or the young ones that were being educated, they still got to run up and down their yards with their neighbours, fed well, vet care etc. While not ideal, I think even 12 mths living like this is better than being euthed and from watching these dogs living like this I'm sure they would agree.

We had enough land to fit in another probably 50 dogs, My boss would have jumped at the opportunity to set this up, as it would be another source of income for him I'm sure other rearing/spelling kennel proprietors would feel the same way.

I know that if owners knew that it was going to cost them say 2-3000 dollars more per pup to whelp and raise it to rehoming stage through extra fees etc, than it does now, they would think very seriously about having a litter. As it is they do deals with rearers, trainers etc "you do this for me, we'll breed my bitch and you can have a couple of pups" which makes it even cheaper again, take that away and there would definitely be a lot less pups bred.

ETA

Three of the four litters we bred at the kennels were only produced because a deal was done.

Edited April 7, 2015 by m-j

[Greyt]

I don't think the "1000 are adopted annually" is anywhere near correct. The figures also don't take into account all the retired dogs sitting on their racing owners couches, or those retained for breeding. I've got three greyhounds at home that don't make it into any of those figures reported. The export figures should be correct though as they are published by GA.

GAP Vic will adopt around 700 greyhounds this year. I'm sure that every other greyhound rehoming agency across Australia will adopt more than a combined 300. I read on Facebook that Greyhound Rescue adopt more greyhounds than any industry funded group, so if that's true then the annual adoption figures should be well over 1000.

Good job on the numbers you re-homeGAPVIC!!

It is worrisome that accurate figures are not available in 2015. No doubt the RSPCA is piecing together their numbers too because the industry does not keep accurate numbers. This may be one of the outcomes that come out of all of the enquiries going on now. In order to achieve better welfare outcomes for the dogs, there needs to be transparency of the numbers.

[mita]

One statistic that is available is the number of racing greyhounds 'produced' each year. I posted much earlier a link to a survey research article from one of the universities quoting an annual figure & placing it alongside figures for other countries. They concluded Australia is the 3rd largest 'producer' of racing greyhounds in the world, behind Ireland and the US (does that mean racing is not banned in all states there?). Australia wasn't all that far behind the US. But the point is that we have a much smaller population to absorb rehoming of 'wastage'.

In a highly competitive racing 'industry' with billions of dollars riding on gambling revenues, it follows there'll be high 'production' rate ... and, then, high wastage & issues with absorbing that. I think this is one of the most difficult issues to try to make compatible with the community's growing expectation that the welfare & future of the greyhounds should take priority.

[m-j]

One statistic that is available is the number of racing greyhounds 'produced' each year. I posted much earlier a link to a survey research article from one of the universities quoting an annual figure & placing it alongside figures for other countries. They concluded Australia is the 3rd largest 'producer' of racing greyhounds in the world, behind Ireland and the US (does that mean racing is not banned in all states there?). Australia wasn't all that far behind the US. But the point is that we have a much smaller population to absorb rehoming of 'wastage'.

In a highly competitive racing 'industry' with billions of dollars riding on gambling revenues, it follows there'll be high 'production' rate ... and, then, high wastage & issues with absorbing that. I think this is one of the most difficult issues to try to make compatible with the community's growing expectation that the welfare & future of the greyhounds should take priority.

I have probably misunderstood your point here, but if you are saying that litters are produced because of gambling, that isn't right, litters are produced because they want to own the next Brett Lee. If people want to gamble there are many outlets for them to do so, without having to produce a litter. There are even what is termed the cartoon races, animated dog and horse races that can be bet on.

[mita]

I referred to the highly competitive nature of a racing industry that's driven by high revenues from gambling. It's the high competition which drives participants to want to produce winners. It's the high revenues that feed and sustain the size of the industry. Both of which, in turn, determine a high annual production rate, with consequent wastage that provides a challenge for our relatively small population to absorb.... in ways compatible with growing community expectations re the welfare & future of dogs.

I've repeated myself.

Edited April 8, 2015 by mita

[m-j]

I referred to the highly competitive nature of a racing industry that's driven by high revenues from gambling. It's the high competition which drives participants to want to produce winners. It's the high revenues that feed and sustain the size of the industry. Both of which, in turn, determine a high annual production rate, with consequent wastage that provides a challenge for our relatively small population to absorb.... in ways compatible with growing community expectations re the welfare & future of dogs.

I've repeated myself.

I'm sorry I don't agree from my experience it is the fact they might breed a dog that can win 10's -100's of thousands of dollars for them and earn them 10's - 100's of thousands of dollars by breeding with that dog. It just takes a lot of dogs to get that next Brett Lee. As it is at the moment it is relatively cheap for them to produce those pups and there are cheap options for them to "waste" many of those dogs/pups.

[Steve]

I may be missing something but is difficult to see how people can say the breeding of them is motivated by money other than the hope of breeding one of the few that end up worth heaps.

It COSTS money to buy the dog to breed with, to get the stud service, to feed and house, get to and from races,vetting, training, specialists registration fees and licences etc.

It COSTS money -big money- to keep a litter until each pup has either shown it should be kept on or moved out .Racing greys which have failed to prove their worthiness dont fetch great prices for pets and they aren't worth 2 cents for racing .It cost money to have them PTS via a vet and to try to find somewhere to bury them. Even if they are cutting deals - stud service for a pup etc its got me buggered how it is something anyone would do to make money.

Hard to believe they are motivated by the whole gambling thing more than the desire to produce a winner and the other rewards that are in the mix.

[m-j]

I may be missing something but is difficult to see how people can say the breeding of them is motivated by money other than the hope of breeding one of the few that end up worth heaps.

It COSTS money to buy the dog to breed with, to get the stud service, to feed and house, get to and from races,vetting, training, specialists registration fees and licences etc.

It COSTS money -big money- to keep a litter until each pup has either shown it should be kept on or moved out .Racing greys which have failed to prove their worthiness dont fetch great prices for pets and they aren't worth 2 cents for racing .It cost money to have them PTS via a vet and to try to find somewhere to bury them. Even if they are cutting deals - stud service for a pup etc its got me buggered how it is something anyone would do to make money.

Hard to believe they are motivated by the whole gambling thing more than the desire to produce a winner and the other rewards that are in the mix.

Yes maybe to you or I but to many of these owners it is a drop in the ocean, the others take calculated risks. If the risk is too high they won't do it

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Maybe some of the excess is caused by people hoping the next dog will be the winner...

Like people who play the pokies all day when they cannot afford it.

Except some of these people are gambling with the lives of their dogs. It just doesn't seem right whatever way you look at it. And if the greyhound (and other racing industries) can't feel that pressure, and change the way they do things, the outside majority will shut them down.

Of course they could move to some country where the value of an animal's life and empathy for it is much less than here.

[gapvic]

I may be missing something but is difficult to see how people can say the breeding of them is motivated by money other than the hope of breeding one of the few that end up worth heaps.

It COSTS money to buy the dog to breed with, to get the stud service, to feed and house, get to and from races,vetting, training, specialists registration fees and licences etc.

It COSTS money -big money- to keep a litter until each pup has either shown it should be kept on or moved out .Racing greys which have failed to prove their worthiness dont fetch great prices for pets and they aren't worth 2 cents for racing .It cost money to have them PTS via a vet and to try to find somewhere to bury them. Even if they are cutting deals - stud service for a pup etc its got me buggered how it is something anyone would do to make money.

Hard to believe they are motivated by the whole gambling thing more than the desire to produce a winner and the other rewards that are in the mix.

I think perhaps things are getting a bit confused here. There are many people involved in the industry:

Owners (motivated by the desire to have fun racing a dog. Winning is a bonus. They may also bet, but they don't BUY a dog to bet on it)

Breeders (motivated by the desire to produce a good race dog. Prize money in Victoria is very good - first place in most city races is around $5500. Breeders may also be owners. As with owners, they may bet, but they don't BREED a dog to bet on it)

Trainers (motivated by the desire to win. They may also be owners and breeders. And as with them, they may bet but they don't TRAIN a dog to bet on it)

Punters (motivated by the desire to win money by betting)

It costs around $20,000 to get a litter of pups to break in stage. The owner pays this. The owner also pays for the pups to be broken in.

Most trainers will train a race dog for a 50/50 split of prizemoney (there are no ongoing fees for the owners).

[Steve]

I may be missing something but is difficult to see how people can say the breeding of them is motivated by money other than the hope of breeding one of the few that end up worth heaps.

It COSTS money to buy the dog to breed with, to get the stud service, to feed and house, get to and from races,vetting, training, specialists registration fees and licences etc.

It COSTS money -big money- to keep a litter until each pup has either shown it should be kept on or moved out .Racing greys which have failed to prove their worthiness dont fetch great prices for pets and they aren't worth 2 cents for racing .It cost money to have them PTS via a vet and to try to find somewhere to bury them. Even if they are cutting deals - stud service for a pup etc its got me buggered how it is something anyone would do to make money.

Hard to believe they are motivated by the whole gambling thing more than the desire to produce a winner and the other rewards that are in the mix.

Yes maybe to you or I but to many of these owners it is a drop in the ocean, the others take calculated risks. If the risk is too high they won't do it

All of the owners I've met throughout my life are just battlers who would struggle to support their hobby .even if they did occasionally breed the greatest dog of the decade it would owe them a lot before they got there and no guarantee that they could do it again.

[Steve]

I may be missing something but is difficult to see how people can say the breeding of them is motivated by money other than the hope of breeding one of the few that end up worth heaps.

It COSTS money to buy the dog to breed with, to get the stud service, to feed and house, get to and from races,vetting, training, specialists registration fees and licences etc.

It COSTS money -big money- to keep a litter until each pup has either shown it should be kept on or moved out .Racing greys which have failed to prove their worthiness dont fetch great prices for pets and they aren't worth 2 cents for racing .It cost money to have them PTS via a vet and to try to find somewhere to bury them. Even if they are cutting deals - stud service for a pup etc its got me buggered how it is something anyone would do to make money.

Hard to believe they are motivated by the whole gambling thing more than the desire to produce a winner and the other rewards that are in the mix.

I think perhaps things are getting a bit confused here. There are many people involved in the industry:

Owners (motivated by the desire to have fun racing a dog. Winning is a bonus. They may also bet, but they don't BUY a dog to bet on it)

Breeders (motivated by the desire to produce a good race dog. Prize money in Victoria is very good - first place in most city races is around $5500. Breeders may also be owners. As with owners, they may bet, but they don't BREED a dog to bet on it)

Trainers (motivated by the desire to win. They may also be owners and breeders. And as with them, they may bet but they don't TRAIN a dog to bet on it)

Punters (motivated by the desire to win money by betting)

It costs around $20,000 to get a litter of pups to break in stage. The owner pays this. The owner also pays for the pups to be broken in.

Most trainers will train a race dog for a 50/50 split of prizemoney (there are no ongoing fees for the owners).

Thanks - that helps - where does the prize money come from?

[gapvic]

Probably best to check the GRV annual report for that one.

Edited April 8, 2015 by gapvic

[labadore]

I may be missing something but is difficult to see how people can say the breeding of them is motivated by money other than the hope of breeding one of the few that end up worth heaps.

It COSTS money to buy the dog to breed with, to get the stud service, to feed and house, get to and from races,vetting, training, specialists registration fees and licences etc.

It COSTS money -big money- to keep a litter until each pup has either shown it should be kept on or moved out .Racing greys which have failed to prove their worthiness dont fetch great prices for pets and they aren't worth 2 cents for racing .It cost money to have them PTS via a vet and to try to find somewhere to bury them. Even if they are cutting deals - stud service for a pup etc its got me buggered how it is something anyone would do to make money.

Hard to believe they are motivated by the whole gambling thing more than the desire to produce a winner and the other rewards that are in the mix.

I think perhaps things are getting a bit confused here. There are many people involved in the industry:

Owners (motivated by the desire to have fun racing a dog. Winning is a bonus. They may also bet, but they don't BUY a dog to bet on it)

Breeders (motivated by the desire to produce a good race dog. Prize money in Victoria is very good - first place in most city races is around $5500. Breeders may also be owners. As with owners, they may bet, but they don't BREED a dog to bet on it)

Trainers (motivated by the desire to win. They may also be owners and breeders. And as with them, they may bet but they don't TRAIN a dog to bet on it)

Punters (motivated by the desire to win money by betting)

It costs around $20,000 to get a litter of pups to break in stage. The owner pays this. The owner also pays for the pups to be broken in.

Most trainers will train a race dog for a 50/50 split of prizemoney (there are no ongoing fees for the owners).

Thanks - that helps - where does the prize money come from?

Wish you would read the reports that I provided you with links to in my post a couple of days ago, there is a wealth of info in these reports.

Excerpts from 1st Report in links I provided in my post a couple of days ago:

Income sources for greyhound racing in NSW

3.56 The primary revenue source for greyhound racing is returns from the wagering industry. The largest share of this revenue comes from Tabcorp, which makes up 82 per cent of the funding for the greyhound racing industry. Other wagering operators in Australia, such as interstate TABs and corporate bookmakers, contribute a smaller amount of revenue to the industry via their payment of Race Field Information Use fees.

3.57 In 2012-13 the amount wagered on greyhound racing in New South Wales reached $1.03 billion. From this the industry received approximately $40 million in revenue. A significant proportion of the wagering revenue received is paid out to industry participants in the form of prize money. This section of the chapter explains these sources of income and how they affect the economic viability of the greyhound racing industry in this state.

Prize Money offered in NSW

3.19 The level of prize money offered in NSW greyhound races is a key factor in determining the viability of owning and racing greyhounds for many industry participants.

3.20 Greyhound Racing NSW reported that $21.5 million is returned to the industry as prize money. Prize money for individual races varies depending on the category of the race meeting, the club holding the meeting, and the distance and grading of a particular race.

3.21 The table below is an overview of the typical range of prize money range offered for different categories of race meetings. (Note that within race categories there are exceptions that fall outside of this sample range, such as prominent races that attract greater prize money. The numbers below are indicative of the typical prize money range offered.)

Table 3 Sample range of prize money for greyhound races in NSW

Category ....1st Place.............2nd Place..........3rd Place

Tab A.......$3,300 - $8,000....$700 - $2,000 .....$330 - $1,000

Tab A2.....$3,300 - $5,000....$700 - $1,200......$330 - $725

Tab B.........$ 830 - $1,670....$240 - $490..........$115 - $245

Tab C.........$ 415 - $850.......$120 - $355............$60 - $210

Country..... $ 400 - $1,000......$70 - $200............$50 - $100

Source: Sample of upcoming races scheduled on GRNSW website: www.thedogs.com.au as at 10 March 2014.

3.24 The Greyhound Action Group explained the importance of prize money to industry participants, noting that even for individuals who participate as hobbyists a reasonable return, in the form of prize money, is required:

Prize money is the life blood of the industry because it in turn determines the participants’ affordability levels to own, train and breed greyhounds.

… Given its hobby/ past time underpinning, it is not realistic to expect net positive returns for the average participant; losses are the cost of the hobby. However, it is anticipated that the level of loss will be at a level that allows reasonable cost for participation.

Prize money differences between states

3.28 Victoria’s prize money for greyhound racing far exceeds that of New South Wales. Mr Brent Hogan reported that Victoria is in a position to pay out an extra $15 million in prize money compared to NSW:

Last year alone our counterparts in Greyhound Racing Victoria had revenue of $70 million in round figures. Greyhound Racing NSW had revenue of $40 million. That led to Victoria being in a position to pay additional prize money of $15 million to its participants over and above what we could afford here.

3.29 However, Mr Hogan also noted that GRNSW pays out a greater proportion of revenue as prize money (54%) compared to Victoria – as shown in Table 4:

Table 4 Prize money in NSW compared to Victoria

.........................................................GRNSW........... Victoria..........Difference

Total revenue...............................$39,905,344......$70,986,000.......$31,080,656

Prize money.................................$21,545,817......$36,730,000.......$15,184,183

Prize money as % of revenue................54%...................52%

Edited April 8, 2015 by labadore