Greyhound Carcasses Found In Bundaberg Bushland

[Maddy]

Would appear the answer for the industry is to

introduce regs or fix the ones they have to say

1. the owner must be responsible for disposal of excess dogs.

2. they must have a vet PTS or someone experienced in euthanasia all dogs they dont need for what they do

3..Never to use rescue or a third party for rehoming which is not financed by or approved by the board.

4. never to discuss what goes on with excess dogs with media AR etc and bring the industry into disrepute,

5.always ensure they dispose of bodies appropriately.

Perhaps they need to set up and help with financing contractors who visit trainers and owners periodically or on request and kill any excess dogs and take away the bodies for burial or cremation to ensure there are no issues with accusations of cruel deaths, body dumping or mass graves which create bad PR.

Laws are already in place for animal cruelty to address such things as using live lures and cruel methods of keeping them and killing them,dumping bodies etc.

yes that's just lovely. Keep the killing of excess dogs out of the publics eye, problem solved. Are you serious!. People want to stop the dogs being bred to huge excess in the first place. A society that thinks breeding all these dogs to justify a few golden ones on the track, and killing the rest, is not what we should be striving for in the 21st century.

Dog forbid things evolve as time goes by, and animal sports racing & betting belongs in a bygone era.

I'm not sure if you noticed it but Steve bolded the part about it being the best solution for the industry itself and I'd agree with her- for the industry, that would be the easiest and best plan to make all of this go away.

The trouble with attitudes of management is that they have been geared towards minimising bad press by sweeping things under the carpet and making grand announcements of punishments (of the people caught doing the wrong thing) and of plans for the future. Previously, this has always worked very well for them as a means of stuffing the problems back into their box but long term, it was never going to work. Now, they need a total change of attitudes and to start looking to actually really improving the industry. They are perfectly capable of it, it just won't be popular with many of their members.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Maddy

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

From what I have heard there is no issue with the health or welfare of the dogs when they are alive.The greyhound is known to be one of the healthiest breeds and the care the trainers and breeders put into looking after them is of little or minor concern. A healthy non stressed animal is more likely to do what it is required to do.

The issue is with the perceived over breeding and what happens to them if they don't cut the grade.

I'm not sure about that. There's trainers and there's trainers. Yes the dogs get a lot of attention - but it's not always good. I've seen the greyhounds brought out to run the lure coursing track at Viriginia and some look great and others look like Arnold Schwartzenegger in his time competing Mr Universe - ugly much? Certainly not in their long term health interests.

I also think if the dogs had better living environments (their minds were engaged more often) that they might run better. Rather than keeping them in small grey prison cells where they get to sleep all day because there is nothing else to do.

I guess there is a balance there. My dog does a fair bit of sleeping on the couch.

I also think that there is a balance between unrestricted breeding and euthanasia the way humans live - and the way we think is best for our pets - ie planned breeding and euthanasia when there is no quality of life left.

There are some who think we should never kill any living creature but you have to draw a line somewhere - we can't live without killing plants and bacteria, and a lot of insects (I refuse to be the personal bloodbank of the local mozzies, well I try).

Personally I think we should not be wasteful. And the greyhound industry as it is - is horribly wasteful of perfectly healthy friendly living dogs.

[Maddy]

I'm not sure about that. There's trainers and there's trainers. Yes the dogs get a lot of attention - but it's not always good. I've seen the greyhounds brought out to run the lure coursing track at Viriginia and some look great and others look like Arnold Schwartzenegger in his time competing Mr Universe - ugly much? Certainly not in their long term health interests.

Believe it or not, some of us actually like the look of a fit, strong dog and take offense to them being called ugly. Big muscles don't mean the dog is being pumped full of drugs (and in racing, dogs are swabbed at random so you'd be stupid to do it), big muscles come from a combination of good genes and quality exercise.

I also think if the dogs had better living environments (their minds were engaged more often) that they might run better. Rather than keeping them in small grey prison cells where they get to sleep all day because there is nothing else to do.

Sleeping all day is what they want to do. There's a greyhound near my desk right now and what is he doing? He's sleeping. He could be outside, chasing butterflies, enjoying the sun, being free.. but nope, he's tucked up in one of the many beds scattered around the house. Greyhounds sleep a lot because they like sleeping.

[Pjrt]

Would appear the answer for the industry is to

introduce regs or fix the ones they have to say

1. the owner must be responsible for disposal of excess dogs.

2. they must have a vet PTS or someone experienced in euthanasia all dogs they dont need for what they do

3..Never to use rescue or a third party for rehoming which is not financed by or approved by the board.

4. never to discuss what goes on with excess dogs with media AR etc and bring the industry into disrepute,

5.always ensure they dispose of bodies appropriately.

Perhaps they need to set up and help with financing contractors who visit trainers and owners periodically or on request and kill any excess dogs and take away the bodies for burial or cremation to ensure there are no issues with accusations of cruel deaths, body dumping or mass graves which create bad PR.

Laws are already in place for animal cruelty to address such things as using live lures and cruel methods of keeping them and killing them,dumping bodies etc.

yes that's just lovely. Keep the killing of excess dogs out of the publics eye, problem solved. Are you serious!. People want to stop the dogs being bred to huge excess in the first place. A society that thinks breeding all these dogs to justify a few golden ones on the track, and killing the rest, is not what we should be striving for in the 21st century.

Dog forbid things evolve as time goes by, and animal sports racing & betting belongs in a bygone era.

I'm not sure if you noticed it but Steve bolded the part about it being the best solution for the industry itself and I'd agree with her- for the industry, that would be the easiest and best plan to make all of this go away.

The trouble with attitudes of management is that they have been geared towards minimising bad press by sweeping things under the carpet and making grand announcements of punishments (of the people caught doing the wrong thing) and of plans for the future. Previously, this has always worked very well for them as a means of stuffing the problems back into their box but long term, it was never going to work. Now, they need a total change of attitudes and to start looking to actually really improving the industry. They are perfectly capable of it, it just won't be popular with many of their members.

Yeah I did get that steve meant it would be a good solution for the industry, rather than society in general.

On the topic of greyhounds looking bulked, muscly, ugly. I guess there are those in some circles that will try to pump their dogs up one way or another, but even the average sofa dwelling grey is well chiseled and well muscled, because after all, they are sprinters, not endurance runners. They need big muscles for big sprinting power bursts, whether that be around a track, after a bunny, or a few hot laps of the back yard.

Edited April 6, 2015 by GrufLife

[Maddy]

Yeah I did get that steve meant it would be a good solution for the industry, rather than society in general.

On the topic of greyhounds looking bulked, muscly, ugly. I guess there are those in some circles that will try to pump their dogs up one way or another, but even the average sofa dwelling grey is well chiseled and well muscled, because after all, they are sprinters, not endurance runners. They need big muscles for big sprinting power bursts, whether that be around a track, after a bunny, or a few hot laps of the back yard.

There are not many chemical ways to bulk up a dog without the risk of being caught. Down here, race winners are swabbed, random dogs at race meets are swabbed and on kennel inspections, even dogs that aren't racing or breeding can be swabbed at random. If you dog tests positive for even a tiny amount of something most people would consider not too serious (like caffeine), you will win yourself a holiday from competing.

A lot of trainers use treadmills or swimming to improve muscles and because of the type of muscling they have, you can turn a flabby, unfit greyhound into muscles on legs with fairly minimal effort so there's not even much benefit to be had from trying to artificially bulk them up. Most of the drugs that people do try to get away with using are things like vasodilators and stimulants (caffeine being the most common down here).

[Pjrt]

Yeah I did get that steve meant it would be a good solution for the industry, rather than society in general.

On the topic of greyhounds looking bulked, muscly, ugly. I guess there are those in some circles that will try to pump their dogs up one way or another, but even the average sofa dwelling grey is well chiseled and well muscled, because after all, they are sprinters, not endurance runners. They need big muscles for big sprinting power bursts, whether that be around a track, after a bunny, or a few hot laps of the back yard.

There are not many chemical ways to bulk up a dog without the risk of being caught. Down here, race winners are swabbed, random dogs at race meets are swabbed and on kennel inspections, even dogs that aren't racing or breeding can be swabbed at random. If you dog tests positive for even a tiny amount of something most people would consider not too serious (like caffeine), you will win yourself a holiday from competing.

A lot of trainers use treadmills or swimming to improve muscles and because of the type of muscling they have, you can turn a flabby, unfit greyhound into muscles on legs with fairly minimal effort so there's not even much benefit to be had from trying to artificially bulk them up. Most of the drugs that people do try to get away with using are things like vasodilators and stimulants (caffeine being the most common down here).

Yes That is why i said i guess there are some, because I know it would be hard to put a dog on the track that had been chemically 'enhanced' . Like you say, it doesn't take much to make a nice fit muscly Greyhound. I love the look of a well muscled Grey. I was just trying to point out that even an average pet Greyhound could still look pumped up to the average man on the street.

[Steve]

@ Steve,

The public want an end to the killing, not a codification of it.

Read the comments on smh.com.au or similar. They are along the lines of stop the over breeding, end the cruelly stop the killing, shut the industry down.

I know what some of the public want but cant see that happening at least in the near future.Too much money in it and I don't just mean gambling- ,vets, dog food companies, canine specialists like chiro etc,transport companies and all of those who are employed within the industry.

The only way you are going to stop people killing them when they are not what they want is to ban the breeding of them because if someone owns a dog and treats it humanely you cant stop them from having them killed. You can't make them send them all to rescue and if they did rescue would have to do what they do because its not possible to find that many homes for so many dogs each year.

I think all that will come out of it is that rescue groups are banned from being used and its all done by managing it the best they can by financing the services they will use,such as rehoming services, euth services and body disposals etc under confidentiality contracts to cut down the visibility.

Im not in any way suggesting that this would be right but I think they will look to their own survival and what's best for their business over caring too much about what some of the public want that doesn't match their goals.

[labadore]

I have a genuine question. If registration costs are raised, what makes people think that trainers will choose to rehome or place their dogs into rehoming programs rather than opt to euth as many do now?

There are some that use industry funded programs or rehome privately but I've heard first hand what trainers think of GAP and other rescues and it's not positive.

Because the law will say they need to be responsible and each dog will have a paper trail.

But how will that stop owners opting to have the dog killed ?

Because the law could state that they need to rehome their dog rather than op to euth their dog. I'm not naive enough to believe that all will adhere to the law but if they realise that there are severe consequences that will be dished out .i.e. if it costs a lot more to not obey the law than to foot the bill of looking after that dog until it is rehomed and the chances of them being monitored and caught are also in place, it will stop the majority.

How will that work as currently any dog owner can opt to have their dog euthanised, irrespective of their age, health, condition or breed, so I cannot see how they can make a law to make it illegal for just greyhounds to be euthanised. If they did make this law you are proposing, how on earth will be it monitored and policed, given estimates of say 15,000 - 18,000 greyhounds are born each year into the industry. The current rules and regulations are not being enforced, so I cannot see any new ones being enforced. The greyhound racing industry will just carry on as they have for many years with financial considerations of the industry being placed ahead of the welfare of the greyhounds.

With regards to removing the gambling/betting from the industry and running the industry as a hobby/sport mentioned in some posts, how will this work given the industry revolves around gambling and betting with billions of dollars involved annually and propped up by the state governments as millions of dollars are poured into government coffers from greyound racing annually. The owners that race their greyhounds as a "hobby/sport" are in the minority and may only own one or a couple of greyhounds and are small fish in a big pond of big players who are responsible for breeding and killing thousands of greyhounds each year.

The old argument for keeping the industry going to avoid thousands of greyhounds being killed if the industry were to be shutdown, needs to be questioned as currently thousands are being killed each year anyway and extremely low numbers are being rehomed , so how many of the 15,000-18,000 greyhounds born each year in this industry are actually surviving anyway, to justify keeping the industry going?

How do you know owners who do this as a hobby are in the minority/ Where are the stats? When you say the industry is propped up by state government - how? How do individual owners and trainer become rewarded by the state government for breeding and training and racing these dogs? I genuinely dont know these things but it would seem to me the big money would be in the dollars they can ask for stud fees and puppies out of certain sire's and dams or those which have a proven track record - with some prize money chucked in - but where does the prize money come from - is it truly the state governments?

Breeding incentives, infrastructure, events grants, appearance fees and tax breaks are the types of taxpayer-funded support the industry receives from the various state govts.

To get some insight into the industry and issues in NSW, you should have a read of a couple of detailed reports produced last year in NSW in Mar 2014 and Oct 2014 as a result of the 2013 Inquiry into Greyhound Racing in NSW conducted by the Legislative Council Select Committee on Greyhound Racing in NSW. Below are links to the reports and the NSW Govt response to the first report. The NSW Govt response to the 2nd report is due this month, but will probably be impacted by the recently established Special Commission of Inquiry into Greyhound Racing in NSW which has been given the same wide-ranging powers as a royal commission and will be conducted by Justice Michael McHugh and the Commissioner will be supported in the Inquiry by a reference group consisting of his existing review panel members; CEO of RSPCA NSW Steve Coleman; Assistant Commissioner Mark Jenkins – Commander State Crime Command, NSW Police Force; Chair of the Greyhound Racing Industry Consultation Group Ron Arnold; and the interim CEO of Greyhound Racing NSW, Paul Newson and Stephen Rushton SC has been appointed Counsel Assisting the Inquiry. This Special Commission of Inquiry is as a result of the the live baiting scandal and was initially only going to be an inquiry to investigate live baiting, but its powers have been expanded to cover the entire greyhound industry in NSW. The commission of inquiry will report by 30 September with draft recommendations due on 30 June.

1st Report of Inquiry into Greyhound Racing in NSW and Govt Response

2nd Report of Inquiry into Greyhound Racing Industry in NSW

As outlined in the reports, the industry in NSW is declining and facing a financial crisis and may be unstainable with its current structure and sources of revenue. It will require govt intervention to secure the future viability of the industry in NSW and with the fallout from the live baiting scandal and other greyhound issues that have garnered the spotlight since the live baiting program aired, the NSW govt may choose not to intervene and let the industry just fade away over time. No doubt the findings of the current Special Commission of Inquiry will determine the future of greyhound racing in NSW.

From reading numerous articles and a fairly detailed report on the greyhound racing industry in the U.S., there are many parallels of what happened in the U.S. and what is happening in Australia and I actually think that Australia will follow in the U.S. footsteps as they have in most dog things years behind, with the greyhound industry shutting down State by State and not all necessarily by introducing govt legislation. Some shutdowns will be due to the decline in the industry making it unviable and govts no longer willing to prop it up due to the changing community expectations with increased public awareness of what is happening in this awful industry due to increased media coverage. As outlined above, the industry in NSW is already in a financial crisis and the current Special Commission of Inquiry is the 2nd major inquiry into the industry in NSW in 2 years, so hopefully this will galvanise NSW govt into leading the way by shutting down the industry either through legislation or not intervening to secure the future viability of the industry in NSW.

U.S. greyhound racing went into decline and tracks closed down across the country as they were unviable and state govt legislation was successfully introduced in a number of states where greyhound racing is now illegal in 39 states, and in 4 states, all dog tracks have closed or ceased live racing, but commercial greyhound racing is still legal and there are 7 states where commercial greyhound racing is legal and operational and state racing commissions are in place in 6 of the 7 operational states to regulate and oversee greyhound racing.

[Little Gifts]

@ Steve,

The public want an end to the killing, not a codification of it.

Read the comments on smh.com.au or similar. They are along the lines of stop the over breeding, end the cruelly stop the killing, shut the industry down.

I know what some of the public want but cant see that happening at least in the near future.Too much money in it and I don't just mean gambling- ,vets, dog food companies, canine specialists like chiro etc,transport companies and all of those who are employed within the industry.

The only way you are going to stop people killing them when they are not what they want is to ban the breeding of them because if someone owns a dog and treats it humanely you cant stop them from having them killed. You can't make them send them all to rescue and if they did rescue would have to do what they do because its not possible to find that many homes for so many dogs each year.

I think all that will come out of it is that rescue groups are banned from being used and its all done by managing it the best they can by financing the services they will use,such as rehoming services, euth services and body disposals etc under confidentiality contracts to cut down the visibility.

Im not in any way suggesting that this would be right but I think they will look to their own survival and what's best for their business over caring too much about what some of the public want that doesn't match their goals.

The general public could cripple the industry in other ways. Public pressure could ensure that the $110 mill that Newman promised the industry up here doesn't go anywhere. Plans for the new Logan track (replacing the Gold Coast track which shut down some years ago) is currently at a standstill due to the public concern raised. I really think the people who killed those 55 dogs and left their bodies in a public place has significantly altered people's opinions on the whole industry up here. This of course comes on the back of the ABC story which shocked the general public but those dead bodies pushed lots of people to say that's enough. I for one think the story and the carcasses are just scratching the surface of what is really going on and that is why my opinions on this have changed. It is simply unacceptable to me and many others like me that 15,000 dogs could die every year in the name of sport and gambling. If greyhound racing wants to fix up that major problem in the way they operate and then look at the conditions ALL trainers and owners are breeding, housing, feeding and training under (as per existing animal cruelty laws) then maybe they should continue to operate as an industry in this country. But all this whining about not having policing powers or time or whatever else does not cut it with me when we are talking about an industry turning over millions (probably billions) of dollars every year. They have never wanted to tidy up the messes they knew existed and have been caught out. They need to pay the price for that now because it is not acceptable to our current society.

Maybe as a start they could put a limit on the number of dogs a breeder, trainer or owner could cull each year and perhaps there could be incentives for rehoming suitable dogs rather than killing them. That puts everyone on equal footing with their stock and gives existing and future dogs a better chance.

[Greyt]

I think it will be a domino effect.. like Labore has alluded to.

1 state will fall and the others will slowly follow. Labor is most likely to be in government when this happens but other factors could precede the demise such as racing TV pulling out or more sponsors.

Little Gifts probably touched on the simplest, most obvious and most effective "solution" of all.

Tie all government funding of the industry to dog welfare outcomes.

[m-j]

[

Maybe as a start they could put a limit on the number of dogs a breeder, trainer or owner could cull each year and perhaps there could be incentives for rehoming suitable dogs rather than killing them. That puts everyone on equal footing with their stock and gives existing and future dogs a better chance.

Why not provide incentives for the owners to not even breed their bitch in the first place or purchase less pups by increasing the cost through an increase of fees to get the pups to racing status and make owners think about the pups/dog's life after racing and how much that will cost them rather than which vet they will use.

Why couldn't the owner keep the dog at a spelling kennel until rescue can take it, I could see kennel owners jumping right on board with this one.

Edited April 6, 2015 by m-j

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

There has been a major restructure of the horse racing industry too. Two of Adelaide's city tracks Cheltenham and Victoria Park have closed and been turned to new uses. Cheltenham - was just too valuable for real estate. The State Govt would do the same to Vic Park if they could get away with it.

All the betting went online and the market for that was mostly in Asia and our races were not at a useful time of day for them (too early?). I think Morphettville is hanging on by the skin of it's teeth and most, if not all, the trotting tracks in urban areas are gone too. Most would be a long way to go for a night out for most city dwellers. And that's the biggest local market.

But I think banning racing and betting - would just mean more illegal racing and betting, and then there would be nobody watching out for animal welfare. Or human welfare either.

[Little Gifts]

I looked up some data and as at 2009, 70% of all Australians had participated in some form of gambling. Australians also spent more than $19 billion on gambling in 2008/09. $12 billion of this was on the pokies.

I doubt 70% of our population would have a high enough income to waste money on gambling, with 13.9% currently living below the poverty line, 27% receiving some form of government benefit and 19% being too young to legally gamble. It's a big social issue. Could the gambling industry survive without horse and dog racing? Highly likely. I've only known one person with a serious gambling issue and he would bet on which fly landed on cow shit first.

I don't consider myself a gambler but I buy lotto a couple of times a year, scratchies when I'm bored and prize home tickets every month so that is me, definitely part of the 70%. Could I live without all those things? Yes, but all that really means is I don't have a gambling problem. I'm still part of the overall, big picture problem.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I doubt 70% of our population would have a high enough income to waste money on gambling, with 13.9% currently living below the poverty line, 27% receiving some form of government benefit

The trouble with gambling is that it is mostly done by people who can't afford it. Pokie money mostly comes from pensioners. And the TAB near where I lived was always full of old men - even during working hours. They all moved outside when they banned smoking inside but they still stayed there all day. They didn't look "wealthy" to me.

It's one thing to buy an occasional lotto ticket (also sold to mostly poor people) but to be in the TAB all day every day - can't be good for the bottom line unless you're the TAB.

And online betting makes it way too easy. Don't even have to go sit with the smelly blokes to make a bet any more.

[Greyt]

They could also have a carbon credit type scheme where there is a fixed amount of credits available for breeders that limit the overall number of dogs produced each year..

This could be linked to welfare outcomes so it would be cheaper for a breeder to buy credits if their previous litters had good welfare outcomes and more expensive if they had bad outcomes or were not discoverable.

[Greyt]

The sport will not go underground in any big way if it is banned. As an entertainment product, it is already in serious decline and with the public relations catastrophe it now faces, the decline - without any intervention by the government - will only accelerate.

Take away wealthy benefactors, sponsors, TV, TAB betting and government money and have the general public abhorred by the practices that go in and you do not have much of an offering.

You definitely do not have an outlet for over breeding some 15,000 dogs per year and the subsequent killing that occurs as a result.

Racing would simply become an amateur activity like any other dog sport is today.

If I owned a vet surgery that specialised in Greyhounds now, or a transport company or a food or supplement company or a breaking in facility, I would be looking around for other opportunities.

[Maddy]

The sport will not go underground in any big way if it is banned. As an entertainment product, it is already in serious decline and with the public relations catastrophe it now faces, the decline - without any intervention by the government - will only accelerate.

Take away wealthy benefactors, sponsors, TV, TAB betting and government money and have the general public abhorred by the practices that go in and you do not have much of an offering.

You definitely do not have an outlet for over breeding some 15,000 dogs per year and the subsequent killing that occurs as a result.

Racing would simply become an amateur activity like any other dog sport is today.

If I owned a vet surgery that specialised in Greyhounds now, or a transport company or a food or supplement company or a breaking in facility, I would be looking around for other opportunities.

You're forgetting that the racing was based on something else to start with. Do I think people would set up elaborate underground race tracks? No. I think people would turn back to live coursing. It was a "truer" test of the dogs to start with and there are already people who do it with their sighthounds in Australia.

[sheena]

What I would like to know, is everytime they breed a litter of pups & maybe choose one which might be a goer, what happens to the rest :(

[Maddy]

What I would like to know, is everytime they breed a litter of pups & maybe choose one which might be a goer, what happens to the rest :(

They aren't chosen as pups. Most are reared, sold and over 12 months of age before anyone can really guess at how well they're going to do. Most of the dogs I took in were between 15 and 18 months old- dogs who were trialed and for whatever reaosn, not cleared to race (not keen enough or not fast enough, usually).

There's this idea out there and dogs are picked out as young pups and the rest killed but generally speaking, that's not the case (and doesn't even make any sense). One of the few exceptions to that is severe injury (like injuries accidentally caused by the dam) or a condition that would exclude the dog. I got my youngest greyhound as a 13 week old pup because he was obviously blind in one eye but I have to keep explaining to people that this is unusual. Greyhound puppies don't often show up in rescue because a healthy greyhound puppy of a decent breeding is potential money. No breeder is just going to make a guess and kill the rest of that potential money because why would they?

[sheena]

What I would like to know, is everytime they breed a litter of pups & maybe choose one which might be a goer, what happens to the rest :(

They aren't chosen as pups. Most are reared, sold and over 12 months of age before anyone can really guess at how well they're going to do. Most of the dogs I took in were between 15 and 18 months old- dogs who were trialed and for whatever reaosn, not cleared to race (not keen enough or not fast enough, usually).

There's this idea out there and dogs are picked out as young pups and the rest killed but generally speaking, that's not the case (and doesn't even make any sense). One of the few exceptions to that is severe injury (like injuries accidentally caused by the dam) or a condition that would exclude the dog. I got my youngest greyhound as a 13 week old pup because he was obviously blind in one eye but I have to keep explaining to people that this is unusual. Greyhound puppies don't often show up in rescue because a healthy greyhound puppy of a decent breeding is potential money. No breeder is just going to make a guess and kill the rest of that potential money because why would they?

I thought it may be the same as it is with working farm dogs. Many farmers will breed a litter & pick out one they think has the potential then turn the rest over to Rescue. I know this happens a lot with working dogs.