Can You Help A Ph.d Student?

[dragonwoman]

So again I ask - why this study?

I'm with Steve on this, what is the point?

[kayla1]

So again I ask - why this study?

I'm with Steve on this, what is the point?

Presumably because there is a gap in existing research and hence a need for this research, the research project has been determined to be feasible within the constraints of a PhD, and is an area of interest for the OP.

Good luck with your research, Veronika. :)

[raineth]

So again I ask - why this study?

Why don't you ask her directly, she has left her contact details?

[Aleksandr]

Dam and Sire is the words in pedigree world.

O dear , I didn't realise that.

It's Ok.

Notice: Topic starter was looking for Dam not for bitches. No need to play rough. :)

More studies needed that is for sure.

[Steve]

Dam and Sire is the words in pedigree world.

O dear , I didn't realise that.

It's Ok.

Notice: Topic starter was looking for Dam not for bitches. No need to play rough. :)

More studies needed that is for sure.

Actually she was looking for bitches that were about to become Dams.

[Boronia]

Dam and Sire is the words in pedigree world.

O dear , I didn't realise that.

It's Ok.

Notice: Topic starter was looking for Dam not for bitches. No need to play rough. :)

More studies needed that is for sure.

Actually she was looking for bitches that were about to become Dams.

and I was being tongue-in-cheek

[Steve]

Dam and Sire is the words in pedigree world.

O dear , I didn't realise that.

It's Ok.

Notice: Topic starter was looking for Dam not for bitches. No need to play rough. :)

More studies needed that is for sure.

Actually she was looking for bitches that were about to become Dams.

and I was being tongue-in-cheek

Yeah I knew YOU were.

[Aleksandr]

Dam and Sire is the words in pedigree world.

O dear , I didn't realise that.

It's Ok.

Notice: Topic starter was looking for Dam not for bitches. No need to play rough. :)

More studies needed that is for sure.

Actually she was looking for bitches that were about to become Dams.

Actualy she said Dam

"What's involved?

• Continuous filmingof dam and the puppies for the first 2 weeks of pups life (there is no sound onthe film and the camera is focussed on the whelping box only)

• Non-invasive testswith the puppies at 7 weeks of age including saliva swabs and an isolation test

• Canine BehavioralAssessment & Research Questionnaire (C-BARQ) for the breeder to completefor the dam"

In our case security camera with the view on the web will be installed at Dams place for continues monitoring and I will be happy to share that if anyone interested in 1 year time.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Aleksandr

[VizslaMomma]

and I was being tongue-in-cheek

Damn cheek.

[Steve]

Dam and Sire is the words in pedigree world.

O dear , I didn't realise that.

It's Ok.

Notice: Topic starter was looking for Dam not for bitches. No need to play rough. :)

More studies needed that is for sure.

Actually she was looking for bitches that were about to become Dams.

Actualy she said Dam

"What's involved?

• Continuous filmingof dam and the puppies for the first 2 weeks of pups life (there is no sound onthe film and the camera is focussed on the whelping box only)

• Non-invasive testswith the puppies at 7 weeks of age including saliva swabs and an isolation test

• Canine BehavioralAssessment & Research Questionnaire (C-BARQ) for the breeder to completefor the dam"

In our case security camera with the view on the web will be installed at Dams place for continues monitoring and I will be happy to share that if anyone interested in 1 year time.

I know she said Dam but a bitch isn't a dam until after she has her puppies and even after she has had her puppies she is still a bitch.So when she said she was looking for pregnant dams she was actually seeking pregnant bitches.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Steve

[alpha bet]

LisaCC... think your comments to Steve are a bit harsh....

I can see where Steve is coming from as I have been to watch quite a few of the presentations from 'PHD student studies' - have to say I was very disappointed, I naively thought they would have some great things to contribute but actually was amazed at how basic and limited these studies where.... after all the purpose of these studies is for the student to actually show that they know 'how' to conduct a study... the result seemed fairly 'pointless'.....

What really surprised was the limited number of dogs actually in these studies.... I shall give one example here:

Study conducted on e-collars "with the expectation of showing the negative attitude towards the use of e-collar".

They conducted this over a 5 day period in a kennel in Melbourne... they asked different owners when they booked in if their dogs could be used in a study... they had permission to use 16 dogs... then 8 dogs had the e-collar and 8 dogs had a fake e-collar... they conducted the test..... One dog (a GSD) was discounted from the study because it was too well trained and did not show any reaction then two Retrievers were discounted because they were so hyper and silly that they could not decifer the responses.... One dog was discounted because it was aggressive when they tried to put the collar on.... hence the study considered these dogs outside the norm.... so now the results are actually for 12 dogs..... of varied ages, breeds, cross-breed and from different home environments... no behaviour details were known of the dogs past.

You have to say that this is a 'pointless' study... what possible conclusion can be drawn from this......

This was common with many of the studies on dogs I saw reported on three different days over a six month period... One study was held and used ONE dog..... sheese!.... I was very disappointed and now this makes me question many of the "findings" i see on the media or on the dog journals.....

Edited April 1, 2015 by alpha bet

[The Spotted Devil]

I suspect I know the study you were referring to alpha bet. If it is the same one I am thinking of it was a citronella collar not an e-collar (it's impossible to get approval to study these in Vic). The study was a Masters project and a follow up on a previously conducted study so there was already data available to inform experimental design. It wasn't an expectation but a hypothesis - scientists have to have a question, a hypothesis - it doesn't mean that we don't consider data that doesn't support our hypothesis. That's what statistics are there for - but sometimes the stats tell us that there are statistical outliers that are skewing the data. Especially if there's small numbers. And yes the student had more trouble than expected getting approval of owners in a limited space of time. And in fact I think the final conclusion was that the collar was mildly aversive but not overly so. Often what you hear at these presentations is a tiny, tiny, tiny part of the entire PhD. Maybe even preliminary analysis. No PhD that I have ever heard of would be granted on a single dog study.

My own PhD data collection was delayed by 12 months because I had trouble getting organisations to commit to non-invasive data collection (ie behavioural observations). I ended up having to go to the USA twice because I was so bloody determined and could get away with living on next to nothing because of my partner's support.

Edited April 1, 2015 by The Spotted Devil

[Aleksandr]

Steve, person who started the thread used word Dam. I believe that person doing her PHd mean all the respect to DOL community possible. I wish I can be in assistance as well as many others. Fact that PHd students asking for assistance here on the DOL forum must mean you have done something right within your 21 000 + messages.

Think about that!

[LisaCC]

I suspect I know the study you were referring to alpha bet. If it is the same one I am thinking of it was a citronella collar not an e-collar (it's impossible to get approval to study these in Vic). The study was a Masters project and a follow up on a previously conducted study so there was already data available to inform experimental design. It wasn't an expectation but a hypothesis - scientists have to have a question, a hypothesis - it doesn't mean that we don't consider data that doesn't support our hypothesis. That's what statistics are there for - but sometimes the stats tell us that there are statistical outliers that are skewing the data. Especially if there's small numbers. And yes the student had more trouble than expected getting approval of owners in a limited space of time. And in fact I think the final conclusion was that the collar was mildly aversive but not overly so. Often what you hear at these presentations is a tiny, tiny, tiny part of the entire PhD. Maybe even preliminary analysis. No PhD that I have ever heard of would be granted on a single dog study.

My own PhD data collection was delayed by 12 months because I had trouble getting organisations to commit to non-invasive data collection (ie behavioural observations). I ended up having to go to the USA twice because I was so bloody determined and could get away with living on next to nothing because of my partner's support.

Just all of this.

Edited April 1, 2015 by LisaCC

[Steve]

Steve, person who started the thread used word Dam. I believe that person doing her PHd mean all the respect to DOL community possible. I wish I can be in assistance as well as many others. Fact that PHd students asking for assistance here on the DOL forum must mean you have done something right within your 21 000 + messages.

Think about that!

You miss the point and to hover over the use of the word bitch and or Dam is pointless.

I dont know the full details of this particular study but I have been highly involved in several studies and witnessed many PHD students give their reports on their studies and the conclusions they have made from them and I watch constantly for any new studies and sweat over them. I am waiting on the results to be published of one I was highly involved in 6 months ago. In fact I would say that I have done way more than my fair share and whilst I don't have a Phd, 4 of my 8 kids do and I suffered through with their challenges as each achieved their qualifications and by the way my academic qualifications aren't that slack either though in the welfare and education area and not in the science field. How much benefit would I get as a dog breeder who works at educating other dog breeders from a study that shows that if a bitch is stressed in the first two weeks after or during delivery of her litter that there are markers in her 7 week old puppies over what I might get from a study we really do need to see done?

By the way - If I lived in SA and had a pregnant bitch I too would put my hand up assuming someone else's Dam was stressed and not mine.

Purebred breeders all over this country have their backs against the wall and in some states they have to treat their breeding dogs based on codes and laws which make absolutely no sense to the science of the species or best practice with many assumptions and rubbish started by ideas that come out of pointless studies that sometimes waste the precious resources available and in my opinion there is much more to be learned and studied that could help us and our dogs.

[RedFeather]

My reading of the OP suggest to me that there is a plan in the future for longitudinal research - are there conditions and signs in later life that may be due to stress or lack thereof as a puppy. But a PhD is supposed to be done and dusted in 3-4 years, meaning this study is likely to be laying the groundwork for future research. If I were a breeder, I'd want scientific and peer reviewed research available that helps me to make decisions about how to raise a litter to reduce stress to the mother, and potential health/other problems in the puppies in the future. If that is indeed the long term aim of the research then it could be very valuable.

[Steve]

My reading of the OP suggest to me that there is a plan in the future for longitudinal research - are there conditions and signs in later life that may be due to stress or lack thereof as a puppy. But a PhD is supposed to be done and dusted in 3-4 years, meaning this study is likely to be laying the groundwork for future research. If I were a breeder, I'd want scientific and peer reviewed research available that helps me to make decisions about how to raise a litter to reduce stress to the mother, and potential health/other problems in the puppies in the future. If that is indeed the long term aim of the research then it could be very valuable.

If that really is the long term aim of the research there is a hell of a LONG distance between a study that shows ASSUMED stress levels in the dam during delivery and two weeks after delivery shows in some way in puppies behaviour at 7 weeks and being able to help breeders to make decisions on how to raise a litter to reduce stress to the mother! One dog will get stressed about things another wont even notice for a start. So many variables which may impact on the results including genetics and which will make breeders take it with a grain of salt. The only ones likely to give it any cred are those who want to use it to press a point about anti puppy farms.

Part of the problem is that people who are not breeders determine what the research should be that will interest breeders without caring much for what breeders have to say about what they would like to see studied to help us.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Steve

[raineth]

There are so many factors that contribute to whether a study is done well, and what its contribution is to the topic. And actually none of that information has been made available to us.

So it's just not possible to say that the study is pointless.

And I am not saying that there should be more information given in this format. People who participate would be given some more information as part of informed consent, but ultimately the only way to assess the study is to read the finished report, after its all done.

It's always good to remember that once upon a time people thought the world was flat, and that the sun revolved around the Earth...

We need to examine the things we take for granted as common sense, as sometimes they're actually not right.

[kayla1]

If the PhD research is adding to existing research, and presumably it is given the OP is at the stage of recruiting participants, then the study is not pointless.

At the end of the day, it is the OP's research project and she is the one doing the hard yards. Her project, her choice.

[The Spotted Devil]

My reading of the OP suggest to me that there is a plan in the future for longitudinal research - are there conditions and signs in later life that may be due to stress or lack thereof as a puppy. But a PhD is supposed to be done and dusted in 3-4 years, meaning this study is likely to be laying the groundwork for future research. If I were a breeder, I'd want scientific and peer reviewed research available that helps me to make decisions about how to raise a litter to reduce stress to the mother, and potential health/other problems in the puppies in the future. If that is indeed the long term aim of the research then it could be very valuable.

If that really is the long term aim of the research there is a hell of a LONG distance between a study that shows ASSUMED stress levels in the dam during delivery and two weeks after delivery shows in some way in puppies behaviour at 7 weeks and being able to help breeders to make decisions on how to raise a litter to reduce stress to the mother! One dog will get stressed about things another wont even notice for a start. So many variables which may impact on the results including genetics and which will make breeders take it with a grain of salt. The only ones likely to give it any cred are those who want to use it to press a point about anti puppy farms.

Part of the problem is that people who are not breeders determine what the research should be that will interest breeders without caring much for what breeders have to say about what they would like to see studied to help us.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at Steve. The study talks about the relationship between maternal CARE and puppy STRESS. We know there is a relationship in other species but there is clearly a gap in knowledge of dogs. There are no assumptions but yes there is a hypothesis. As for vagaries of breed, background, genetics - yes of course - which is what the statistics will weed out...all the "noise" that goes with that. I looked at mixed breeds of unknown background in dog shelters and fear responses were fear responses regardless. It's not designed to fix every dog or to deal with the dog that doesn't need our help. It's to improve the average.

I'm a scientist and a registered breeder. I think this is fascinating personally - if you can identify what promotes good maternal care maybe you can select for it or manipulate the conditions for a maiden bitch to make things easier for her.