For Those Who Instruct Beginners In Agility

[sheena]

This thread is mainly aimed at those fellow instructors who instruct a beginner class. How do you introduce your new guys to the weaves.?? I am really mostly referring to those who have NEVER had an agility dog before & have probably never heard of weave poles. I have started them off with very simple 2 poles opened up with dog running to a baited target about 4 to 6 feet out along the line. Slowly closing up the gap & then introducing two more poles opened up. I thought this would be a very easy concept to grasp, & the one student in my class who has already done agility, grasped it straight off & now has her dog running through 6 poles, closed up, to a target. But the others are still struggling after a month with the first two poles Of course they are a real mixture of dogs with different levels of drive (or lack of). I really don't think 2 x 2 would be any easier to grasp & the other instructor has been doing channel weaves with her group for nearly two years now & they still can't do the weaves. Last week I showed them how to "shape" a dog to go through the two poles using a clicker. I thought this week I might try putting up four poles & putting wings on them to guide the dogs through. This is how I taught my first agility dog back in the days when I didn't have a clue how to do the weaves, but it worked :laugh: I don't want them luring their dogs through, otherwise they end up doing the "elephant walk" :laugh: that you see so much in trials.

[Podengo]

We train with 2x2, WAM and have the channel weaves as back up.

We like 2x2 for entries, and that it is very easy to train at home. In our introductory class the students are introduced to shaping by teaching wobble boards and various tricks, then once they have a good grasp of shaping (passed that criteria in the class!) they can use the 2x2.

The WAM is good for reinforcing speed in the weaves once the dogs have the general idea. The WAM is only at club though, and the beginners only have access to it one training night a week - so can't teach weaves with that alone really.

Channel weaves are back ups, but we really prefer not to use them as they're a pain to get out and we have found new agility people won't buy the gear to train channels at home.

IMO if they want to learn to weave properly they HAVE to do their homework, and 2x2 is the easiest way to get them doing their homework. We have experimented with loads of different methods over the years, and have found 2x2 the best for getting them working it at all and actually putting it into practice. This is with absolutely new to dog training beginners, at a club with very few border collies too :)

[Kavik]

Our club teaches 2x2 now, before that they used to use guides

However, my personal view is that if the handler and dog are not good at shaping, that 2x2 would be very difficult and frustrating, especially trying to teach it at a club with so many people at different levels and the level of distraction found at a club.

I would teach either a 2 or 3 pole method for entries, and slanted poles for speed/footwork at a club

Edited March 27, 2015 by Kavik

[sheena]

Thanks Guys...DD...what do you mean by WAM Is that weavamatic using guides??

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think I would teach round and round a pool noodle or tall bucket (helps to be a little bit taller than the dog's head or that the dog would jump over or on).

After that interacting with weave poles (or two buckets or sulo bins or pool noodle uprights) would be easy.

I think it would be smart to teach the dog the concept of weaving or going around an upright thing first with not very agility like equipment so it's not learning about being slow and uncertain near agility equipment, then generalising a weave around bins or buckets - to weave poles would be easy.

And good strength and flexibility helps - because otherwise after a couple of repeats of bending back and forth - a dog can be a bit sore and uncomfortable.

And not doing it to death also helps. Eg do five to 10 attempts per session then do something else like play or a different kind of game or something else the dog knows well.

Had a very interesting experience last night at my new dog club. Got told my dog was fast a lot... she wasn't when I started... Well she was very good at shutting down, going sniffing and leaving work. Fast if there was a possum around. I watched one of the other students in the class have the same problem but she didn't want to talk to me about it. And the instructor would give us feedback but allow us to ignore the dog (almost require it because she didn't give us the opportunity to "park the dog" first.

And then I saw her working her dog. No wonder she thought mine was fast. But the things I want to sort - she was very good at helping with. So overall I had a fun training night.

[Tassie]

sheena, although I love 2x2 for my own dog, I can't really see how it can be effective in a beginner club setting, as Kavik says, with people who aren't used to shaping ... and let's face it, are probably not going to put in the work on reps.

We don't teach it in our foundation - but we're planning to use the channel/drive to toy/backchain method from recent Clean Run mags. We don't have WAM, and although it's a pain to set the channel, we've already had them doing drive to toy/target in foundation, so the transition should work. Once we have them going through 12, driving independently, both sides, we'll work on the entries using 4 poles and round the clock gradually increasing distance. It's pretty much how Kirra learnt, and she has really nice independent weaves ... although now we have arguments about whether there are 10 or 12 poles .

[sheena]

I already have them driving to a target. That was the first lesson I taught them & I tell them every week to keep practicing it & variations of it. That is why when I brought out two poles with a line up the middle to a target that it would be a lot simpler than it has been. :laugh: Tassie, I read that bit about the back chaining the channel & liked the idea, because I like back chaining things, but thought it might be a bit much for beginners to get hold of..

MRB.. I might get them started next week on noodles, but thought I might show them how to teach the dog to weave around their legs, which is a good exercise.

They should have bought themselves 6 weave poles by now as this was one of the bits of equipment that I told them to get before they even started the class. Just 6 long handled screwdrivers from Bunnings & six matching pieces of polypipe & a long piece of webbing with holes at 60cm intervals.

On a different subject, we have been working on Start Line Stays since day one & I am most impressed with their progress :)

[Tassie]

On a different subject, we have been working on Start Line Stays since day one & I am most impressed with their progress :)

I have a small foundation class just finishing up in a week or so - 8 week block and they have been so good at doing their homework. Their SLS aren't completely bomb proof (whose are :laugh: ) but impressive for beginners. We have just been doing flatwork, end contact behaviour, table and started on flex tunnel - oh and PNU and general rear end awareness. We're looking forward to these people going on to the more 'sexy' stuff wit a good foundation - but they have another 8 week block before they get to courses.

[sheena]

On a different subject, we have been working on Start Line Stays since day one & I am most impressed with their progress :)

I have a small foundation class just finishing up in a week or so - 8 week block and they have been so good at doing their homework. Their SLS aren't completely bomb proof (whose are :laugh: ) but impressive for beginners. We have just been doing flatwork, end contact behaviour, table and started on flex tunnel - oh and PNU and general rear end awareness. We're looking forward to these people going on to the more 'sexy' stuff wit a good foundation - but they have another 8 week block before they get to courses.

The last couple of training nights I have had them all find a space, put their dog in a stay, but stay within a couple of meters of their dog while I & a helper weave in & out of them with our own dogs, flapping pieces of paper, talking, waiving my arms about, handing out treats to my dog etc..any distraction we can think of. When I get closer to their space they are to up the marking & treating of their dog. Then we did SLS in front of a jump doing all sorts of things, but not releasing to the jump. This was actually a bit harder for some dogs. I am going to introduce them to this next week, but without the obstacles. I am really enjoying taking beginners :)

[kelpiechick]

We teach 2x2's at our club - they are introduced in the Beginner Class (2nd level class, following Foundation) and the first week of that 10 week block class is handlers without dogs where we go through the steps, plus get them to throw down the reward line and basically work through some of the stages without dogs to get their mechanics correct first.

We also insist that they either buy 2 sets of poles (4 poles) or make their own, they also get a very detailed set of notes and we encourage them to video their training and post to the club facebook page to get feedback.

We have found that in around 80% of students the method seems to be working (the ones who put in the work have been able to achieve really good results) but there are still the odd few that haven't made progress for whatever reason so the club has just purchased a set of channels to use with those students instead as a back up.

[Tassie]

Thanks kelpiechick. We're in the process of revamping our courses, and are short of experienced instructors, but that's an approach we might well try next year. While the Foundation class I have are great, and woiuld probably do their homework, we have a lot of others who wouldn't.

[Podengo]

WAM is the weave a matics, ours is set like regular weaves but at the base of each pole is a little screw that you can undo to chance the angle of the poles. Sometimes we'll just adjust the angle on the second pole to make entries a little easier when working hard entry angles etc, but leave the rest of the poles like regular weaves.

I've been involved in running the beginner classes at my club for 4 years and we're absolutely had the most success with 2x2, but our newbies do go through a class prior to starting in the class with weaves. Usually it's winter training that knocks our newbies out, not weaves!

[J...]

I haven't even thought about teaching weaves yet, the only method I'm really familiar with (i.e. trained myself) is 2x2s.

We are starting off with a really low if not non-existent level of foundation skills so our current training is absolute basics. Contacts and weaves will have to wait unless they want to work through it themselves.

I do have a few quite motivated students who have the 2x2 DVD and they are working through it on their own, I am encouraging them to bring any issues to class so we can work through them. I suspect there is a lot of learning from mistakes but that's all part of dog training, at least they all know now that any mistakes are theirs and not the dogs. That wasn't the case less than 6 months ago, so we are making some progress.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think the biggest hold up for 2x2 weaves and my training was

1. I could not figure out how the dog knew "which end" to go in when there were only two poles.

I had the 2x DVD but I hadn't seen the Derrett handling DVDs so a lot of the handling arms and shoulders and feet stuff didn't make any sense to me.

2. she didn't have any kind of toy retrieve. And initially wasn't all that keen on it as a reward at all. Only wanted food.

So I kind of used hand targeting (sometimes with food lure) to get her to weave. She gets it now but her head is up (cos that's where my hand was). So we now need to get her head down. And also build duration so she does all the poles nicely every time. And independent entries could use some work.

So I'd probably go again with about four poles because that really defines the ends for independent entries and for signalling a particular end to enter.

There's someone here in SA (Dol member too) who lines her dog up between her legs. As lead steward - I'm always surprised because I think I need to get out the way but I don't...

Pretty sure I can get Frosty to do this. At the moment I use hand targeting and RZ (re-inforcement zone) heelwork (she does backwards, forwards, rotating and sideways on both sides) to get her lined up. And I always check where I want her pointing when I'm walking the course (because early on I stuffed that up for us).

Really nice A frame - Tunnel discrimination on the video. If I ran on the right side of the tunnel with the A frame and the dog on the left - she would make her own choice about which obstacle to take... she likes being up high so that's currently got more value than tunnels..

Last night - she decided to cross from the tunnel mouth I was pointing at in front of me and zip over into the tunnel mouth over there behind me... argh... no idea why that was a thing. Shadows maybe. Or the other end smelt better?

[kelpiechick]

Another thing that I think really helps is teaching 'round the clock' crate entries as part of crate games so the dogs learn to seek out the entries by themselves, especially with the more difficult entries from behind the crate. Also helps with teaching backside tunnel sends :)

[Tassie]

I haven't even thought about teaching weaves yet, the only method I'm really familiar with (i.e. trained myself) is 2x2s.

We are starting off with a really low if not non-existent level of foundation skills so our current training is absolute basics. Contacts and weaves will have to wait unless they want to work through it themselves.

I do have a few quite motivated students who have the 2x2 DVD and they are working through it on their own, I am encouraging them to bring any issues to class so we can work through them. I suspect there is a lot of learning from mistakes but that's all part of dog training, at least they all know now that any mistakes are theirs and not the dogs. That wasn't the case less than 6 months ago, so we are making some progress.

We're a bit the same, Jess. It would be ideal if students had their own 2x2 DVDs - I felt the key to success on that was the continuity of work - not necessarily 12 in 12 days :laugh: but you know what I mean. It's certainly my preference for my own dog - although as I said, Kirra learnt channel/WAM drive to target combo, then polished entries with round the clock on 4 poles (thanks to Deb Kelly who introduced that to us.)

We're just revamping our syllabus at Club, so the guinea pigs on the 8 week Foundation block are just finishing - they will start weavers in the next block.

[Tassie]

Another thing that I think really helps is teaching 'round the clock' crate entries as part of crate games so the dogs learn to seek out the entries by themselves, especially with the more difficult entries from behind the crate. Also helps with teaching backside tunnel sends :)

Agree kc! Another of our innovations with this new syllabus is getting everyone going on crates - a big step. Then we can play crate games. Rory's face was a picture when I was doing the "use the crate to teach the backside tunnel" thing

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think my evil hound would rather do back side tunnel entry whether I want one or not...

I like the idea of practicing round the clock entry crate games.

I keep meaning to get out the crate(s) and practice the stage 4 and 5 stuff.

[sheena]

I like the idea of crate games, but I suspect that not everyone in my class would have a crate. But that sounds like a good idea for practicing tunnel entrances. I also like the idea of starting off a new class with an 8 week block or foundation & then those that are left go on to learn equipment....but I think I would rather make it 12 weeks to make up for missed training because of weather & trials etc. I am going to ask them tonight who has access to a crate. This week I have emailed them instructions on teaching your dog to leg weave & tonight I might just set up 4 poles in a channel with the tape running up the middle to the target, just so they feel they are doing something :) Might take in the pool noodles too. Tassie...slightly off topic, but I found a Utube last night on learning Lateral Leg Weaves...you ever done those??? It's when you start with the dog between your legs, then step back with your left leg to face behind, then step back with your right so you are facing the front again all the time your dog is weaving your legs. As I say, very much off topic & nothing to do with agility :laugh:

MRB...in my experience, when it comes to tunnels...you only have to "think" the wrong end & your dog will take it. Makes me wonder if when we "think" the wrong end, if maybe ours eyes follow our thoughts even just enough to put the dog on the wrong course.

[Tassie]

Whether it's just the particular group we've had as guinea pigs or not, but the 8 weeks - well, we've had 7 so far - of Foundation seems to have equipped our guys with the sorts of skills and competencies I would think are good to have them go on to more obstacle work and starting jumping and so on. They have worked hard on SLS, drive to toy, drive to RZ as well as body awareness stuff and circle work, and flexi tunnel and table. Yesterday we had the tunnel in various configurations, with the dogs driving to the tunnel and on to the table (just low). Their end contact behaviour is pretty solid on flat and sloping planks. Had one session with jump bumps and will do one more. They are really having great success in getting the dogs engaging fully with them, and vice versa - working on both sides - right hand still needs work for the obedience people, but that's true for my boy as well :laugh:

As far as crates go, some had them, others are buying them - Crazy Sales have some good prices on wire crates at the moment - and we have a few extra crates at club that we can lend them in the interim.

Think I know what you mean by lateral leg weaves sheena. My own guys do a variety of stuff because of their DWD work, but I encourage people at club to teach as much stuff to their dogs as they can - anything like this is good for engaging with the dog, and body awareness and conditioning.