Dealing With A 'teenage' Dog

[Roova]

My Border Terrier Poppy is now seven months old and there's some changes in behaviour I'm a bit unsure how to deal with.

I've been ready and waiting for the teenage 'tude but now its here I feel a bit unsure best way to approach it. She's a great little dog with a good repertoire of tricks and behaviour Im really happy with but Im only self taught from either here, the web or YouTube so very inexperienced.

We only have short sessions, I use tiny treats to reward and we've learnt most things by shaping. We don't do dog parks and I think I would have a lot of trouble with group dog obedience with her focus as it is at the moment. So, my biggest problems I'd love to address are:

Creeping forward in the down position.

Up until a month ago she would drop nicely from a stand\sit with either voice or signal and if I was close, at a distance or out of sight. About a month ago after teaching 'crawl' she's starting to army crawl forward in the drop. She doesn't go far but enough I don't know whether to start teaching her to down again or whether I should be growling at her and returning her to start position with no reward?

Ignoring a command:

Mostly if we're working on tricks or behaviour she has a quick response but at times she has selective deafness. If I say or give the sit sign she might look at me but do nothing. Am I meant to growl and ask her again, grown and push her bottom down or try original command again until she does it?

Heel work going out the window:

We seem to have lost our groove of her walking at my side. She's now creeping forward or just so completely distracted by what's happening around her I might as well not be there. When we practice at home with fast or slow walks and random stops (with no distractions) she's perfect of course. As soon as we step onto the street, even if its just to walk back and forth out the front everything in the world is more interesting than me. Its probably made worse by the fact we haven't had any decent walks while Im focussed on getting heel back. I don't ask her to heel on casual walks but don't want two conflicting types of walk happening if that makes sense. I treat and praise for walking at my side and if she's been good she gets a 'free' moment to sniff and look around. Previously when I stopped she would instantly sit but now its sideways or not at all if she's staring at something. I've tried stopping, growling and what seems like a harsh check but I don't get much of a reaction. I really want to stick with positive rewards but even with her favourite treat of all, tiny pieces of chicken neck its not enough. I use a training collar or half check collar, not sure of its right name.

Everything but me is a distraction:

Contributing to my above problem she is absolutely enthralled with any person, kid, dog or event she sees when we're walking. I don't recall any dog I've had in the past having such a fascination with the world! If I spot one of the neighbours kids on the street by themselves I get them to be a statue while I practice heeling. Even at opposite ends of the street her head is swivelling to the child or she's belly crawling if we get closer.

Gawd, how did this get so long?! I would really appreciate any hints or tips on how to work through the above.

Edited to say I've backed off some privileges in the house to see if it helps so she no longer has free reign of my bedroom\bathroom etc. There's lots of fun and cuddles too so I hope the above doesn't read like life is nothing but seriousness.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Roova

[persephone]

What does she get to see normally ?

Does she come with you in the car ? Walk around shops etc ..sit in a park & watch/listen to the world ?

\

if she doesn't do it now - did she as a little pup?

edit to add - I am not a 'trick' person ..would rather have a dog who doesn't pull , and who comes when called, as the two most important lessons learnt .

Edited March 26, 2015 by persephone

[sheena]

Obviously all of the above need addressing individually, but one thing stuck out. You say you are using tiny pieces of chicken neck as rewards. I am just trying to get a picture of just how tiny it would be able to get a piece of chicken neck :) If the pieces are about the size of a dried pea & able to be consumed very quickly then fine. Personally I would rather use a tiny soft treat. One that can be delivered often & devoured quickly before she forgets what she was doing to earn the treat. My favourite at the moment is tiny pieces of human grade chicken loaf. Think of your dog as a bank account into which you make deposits regularly or you lose interest. When the distractions are the greatest, that is when you need to treat more often & not so much when things are not. But treat randomly, maybe after one second or one step, then 5, then 2 then 6 then 1 etc. So that she never knows when the reward is going to come. Are you using a clicker???

[Roova]

Thanks for your responses. Ok for the answers....

What does she get to see normally? Does she come with you in the car ? Walk around shops etc ..sit in a park & watch/listen to the world ?

If she doesn't do it now - did she as a little pup?

Since eight weeks we've gone somewhere different at least once a week. She's been held by different people and met cats, other dogs, and chooks etc (in controlled situations). She flew from Melbourne to the Gold Coast and is a great traveller in the car (in a crate). She's been held by people or just hung out near us when talking and has been a pretty cruisy little dog. She's been to the local supermarket and shops just to sit and watch and she would have gone to every person walking past even if they paid her no attention. Expect for random people when she was between 8 and 16 weeks I haven't really encouraged interaction with other people more aiming for just accepting them being around. Maybe the holding and cuddles when she was younger set her up for wanting the attention? During our (loose leash) walks if she wants to stare or sniff at something I've let her take as long as she wants (maybe another part of the problem?).

You say you are using tiny pieces of chicken neck as rewards. I am just trying to get a picture of just how tiny it would be able to get a piece of chicken neck :) If the pieces are about the size of a dried pea & able to be consumed very quickly then fine.

Yes they're tiny, well as tiny as I can chop them. Ive been using secateurs because they're hard little suckers to cut. These only come out when Im really wanting her attention on me, normally I use tiny chopped up pieces of dehydrated meat like chicken, beef, fish etc. I use raw at times but its pretty messy. I use cheese at well but Im a bit wary of too much dairy. I've tried different pet loaves but she refuses them. The dehydrated treats smell pretty full on and she normally loves them but obviously they and me are too boring compared to the world out there.

Are you using a clicker???

No, I've been using yes then treat. She picks up new things well but I start everything inside with no distractions and then we move to back yard, front yard and then out on walks. When she's focussed on me she'll do everything but not on walks if she's staring at something. I normally make kissy noises to get her attention and she mostly refocusses on me but not always.

I've been practicing eye contact and pretty much every single night since she was little some form of recall which might be her in a stay and me going out of sight then she comes find me when I say Poppy come. I practice on a long line if outside the house because I have no doubt she would be straight across the road if she saw a person or dog in the distance! I practice lots of her chasing me games with her too, not sure if that's a good idea or not? Ill run calling her name and drop a treat at my foot. While she's eating it Im off running and calling her name again. She normally gets really excited with this one.

Possibly I just have to accept she's a Terrier and not a Border Collie but I feel she has so much potential if I could see what I was doing wrong.

[persephone]

maybe try NILIF

so all day ,every day is "training" ;) sounds as if she'd do well with that! it will keep her thinking how to get her next treat/cuddle !!

Also when walking - include busier areas- and just WALK ... no chatting , no stopping to practice anything ..or say hello or windowshop .... or pee ... just walk , and reward her when her head is pointing straight ahead , and the leash is loose :) Do the same route every day for a while . there is plenty of new info, even on teh same footpath/row of shops. Scents and sounds are always changing! remember- she is not noticing the same boring shops/trees/straight lines - she is DOG and the minutiae are what she will notice ;) An ant, a footprint, a waving bit of grass, a food scent .....

[sheena]

I was talking with an agility judge just recently who runs Jack Russells & we got onto the subject of treats. He gets a human roll of devon & cuts it into tiny (1cm) cubes then bakes them on a flat tray in the oven. His dogs go nuts for them. You really need a treat that can be devoured quickly without the risk of it getting caught in the throat...hence the reason for using soft treats. I wouldn't consider chicken neck pieces as being soft or cut up pieces of dried meat. Apart from that, I wouldn't want to be handling raw chicken while training because of health reasons. Have a look at the LAT Thread (Look At That). If she is being fine when indoors then a tiger when you go out, then the jump in distractions is being too much & you need to take it a bit more slowly. Personally, when I am walking my dogs I just want them to be on a loose lead & can go sniff as long as they are not pulling me all over the place. But have a look at the LAT thread in Training section. I did it with my easily distracted girl & it really does work :)

[Roova]

Thanks guys! I would have been happy with casual walking and just having fun at home but I'd like to do more with her one day. I figure if I go down the obedience or agility road we'll have to be working as a team so I can't give up at the first frustration. I do a bit of NILF every day but not for every single thing... yet. Sheena thanks for the suggestion on LAT and treats I'll check them out.

I just did 10 or so minutes with her then and she was brilliant in the back yard and when I moved to the front yard she was walking at an angle across my knee to watch someone walking down the road. Instead of sitting when we stopped she stood staring, lost in her own little world lol. I'm thinking I'll stick with the house area only for a while, keep cementing good behaviour and delay distractions for a bit.

Now I'm off to read about LAT!

[persephone]

NILIF needs to be a 24 hr thing :) It just becomes a way of life - like kids saying "please & thankyou"

[sheena]

Thanks guys! I would have been happy with casual walking and just having fun at home but I'd like to do more with her one day. I figure if I go down the obedience or agility road we'll have to be working as a team so I can't give up at the first frustration. I do a bit of NILF every day but not for every single thing... yet. Sheena thanks for the suggestion on LAT and treats I'll check them out.

I just did 10 or so minutes with her then and she was brilliant in the back yard and when I moved to the front yard she was walking at an angle across my knee to watch someone walking down the road. Instead of sitting when we stopped she stood staring, lost in her own little world lol. I'm thinking I'll stick with the house area only for a while, keep cementing good behaviour and delay distractions for a bit.

Now I'm off to read about LAT!

Yes...definately have a look at LAT. Basically it is counter conditioning her to the things she finds distracting. If she likes tricks then this just becomes another trick. I know some would not agree with me, but I feel that the clicker is an important part of LAT which is what the originator, Leslie McDevitt uses.

[Dogsfevr]

Sounds like a very bored dog doing the same thing over & over again with no real reward or pleasure in doing it .

She needs to be trained in the outside world not in the backyard.You can't get frustrated at a dog that doesn't have to deal with any distractions & yet be perfect when more interesting things take her fancy ,it means that the connection between you & her in the real world isn't there & she is young .Exposure to distractions is far more important for me & learning how to deal with them ,no point having a perfect dog in the backyard if nothing applies outside so with our show dogs distraction training is very important & we start very early whilst its all about fun with no expectations to be happy & pay attention to us,we don't want perfection at 7 months we just wan progress when out & about .Infact i never train in the backyard ,for me the backyard is there world to be dogs & enjoy there free time ,

[Roova]

Thanks for your feedback Showdog.

I work on new behaviour in the backyard/house first so I know she understands what she's meant to be doing rather than try and teach her with kids etc running around. I live at the round end of a cul-de-sac so after we leave the yard I can practice on this road. When the neighbours kids come out to play its bedlam and I wouldn't expect Poppy to concentrate on me when they're yelling and running around (yet anyway). I pick my moments out there!

I really try and be enthusiastic with my praise and voice when she does well, including while we're practicing. If she's done a really good job she gets a 'go sniff' moment. I've been doing this more over the last few days and I think its helping her concentration when I then ask her to come back to heel. Its a bit hard to avoid the 'over and over' when you're practicing getting something right though. I have to be consistent or she'll get confused won't she

From what I've been reading is pretty normal for young dogs to be easily distracted with the world so I guess I'm not alone there! I definitely don't want perfection, just I guess reliability or some type of consistency.

Can I ask what works for you getting attention /focus with your guys when they're young and in distracting environments? How much attention do you expect or ask for?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Roova

[Dogsfevr]

Thanks for your feedback Showdog.

I work on new behaviour in the backyard/house first so I know she understands what she's meant to be doing rather than try and teach her with kids etc running around. I live at the round end of a cul-de-sac so after we leave the yard I can practice on this road. When the neighbours kids come out to play its bedlam and I wouldn't expect Poppy to concentrate on me when they're yelling and running around (yet anyway). I pick my moments out there!

But it wouldn't be bedlam ,you can simply work on self control at this time ,she doesn't have to be perfect just be able to be able to control her need to want to join in

I really try and be enthusiastic with my praise and voice when she does well, including while we're practicing. If she's done a really good job she gets a 'go sniff' moment. I've been doing this more over the last few days and I think its helping her concentration when I then ask her to come back to heel. Its a bit hard to avoid the 'over and over' when you're practicing getting something right though. I have to be consistent or she'll get confused won't she

There is no point doing over & over if it isn't working in the real world,dogs get bored very quick & once you lose the zest to want to do something you loss concentration to do it right then often owners are teaching bad habits & blunders more often than what you want .

Lets be real even as humans if we are being taught the same thing over & over we get fed up ,dogs aren't different .

Make it fun ,not all methods suit all breeds .B/T can be stubborn but there not stupid ,they get bored quickly & switch off quicker .i would see that in show handling classes with the owners who did the same thing over & over ,there dogs would switch off But once turned into a whole different learning method they thrived .

My friend does tracking with her B/T & they are awesome workers she also does other dog sports but for them tracking has been there niche

From what I've been reading is pretty normal for young dogs to be easily distracted with the world so I guess I'm not alone there! I definitely don't want perfection, just I guess reliability or some type of consistency.

There getting older & braver ,simple things don't amuse them as much & other things excite them more ,just like toddlers

Can I ask what works for you getting attention /focus with your guys when they're young and in distracting environments? How much attention do you expect or ask for?

I have Setters ,for the show ring i don't train anything set .for free stacking training its done as part of playing ball or with there toys,i encourage them to go crazy but once given there cue they work ,i encourage craziness resulting in self control when asked ,They are very playful & don't mature till late ,they get bored quickly & doing the same thing is boring,they are trained out the front with roos,rabbits

[Stressmagnet]

I'm having same issues with my 11 mo old lab. His tecall has failed utterly out and about -- all else is still pretty great.

Ugh. I hate the thought of putting him on s long line again.

[The Spotted Devil]

You wouldn't give a 12 year old the keys to the Ferrari is my motto :laugh: My dogs don't get freedoms until they've earnt my trust!

I'm always asking my dogs what distractions they can work under. If you look it as feedback and information rather than a teenage rebellion it's much easier to formulate a solution. I think when we have a youngster and they are working really well it is easy to get lulled into a false sense of security and behaviours and criteria get sloppy over time. I don't mind my dogs failing at times (and in fact I encourage it!) but there is always a consequence (reduced freedom, no reward, stop training, train the other dog etc) and I work through the issue immediately. Once they nail that I add something else to the mix to up the ante :)

Edited March 28, 2015 by The Spotted Devil

[Roova]

I thought I'd update this thread as to where we're at now (as a record for me too).

I ended up getting some one on one lessons with a lady who helped me get past my problems. Im sure there's different training methods but for the moment this one is working for the both of us and Im really enjoying being given direction and things to try.

Firstly I had to take back some free reign Poppy was allowed. The theory was she was getting attention at all times which meant she had less work ethic at the time it was required. She now doesn't sleep in my room or have access to the bedrooms\bathroom side of the house anymore. She is very good at not crossing the line but waits on a mat until I come out of those rooms. She has time outside the house when I'm home, and time out here alone when my other dog Maggie is inside. She performs little commands before treats and cuddling etc. I've seen a big difference in her attitude to me and training in general.

When walking I had to use a firm collar pop if she surged ahead and passed the 'plane' of my legs. At that point I would do an immediate stop and an UGH as well. Lots of praise when she moved back in to position. I had to stop with the constant small nagging collar pops which she was learning to ignore. If she's been good and giving me good eye contact when sitting at heel she'll get a 'go sniff' moment but only sniffing in the area the lead can give her - no more letting her wander in an extended go sniff. She's off like a shot with nose down when I say go sniff!

I also went to lots of places and did work near distracting events, Masters and outside dog parks etc. A good distance away first and then moving closer. She's still very interested of course and when closer its a bit more of a struggle to keep her attention but its all a work in progress. On the weekend we walked past a dogpark fence and a lab on the inside rushed the fence growling. I just thanked my lucky stars we don't go in to them. I then watched him trying to dominate another dog which entered later on. No idea why the owner though it was ok to have him in a shared dog area

So fast forward eight weeks I think since my initial questions and our walks are now fantastic. Loose leash on heel and she generally self corrects when I change speed. If she starts moving ahead I can stop and say 'back' and she'll walk backward to get back to the 'plane'. If I walk a little sideways she'll stay at heel and move with me. Im lucky to have two courts backing each other so we practice off lead heeling which is going well. She'll sit stay and has a great recall at distance. I'd love to find an empty dog park to practice off lead recalls in a new area in but they're very hard to come by!

[persephone]

Brilliant work :)

[Nekhbet]

If she starts moving ahead I can stop and say 'back' and she'll walk backward to get back to the 'plane'

Don't add another command or it becomes a recognised behavior. Use a non reward marker if she creeps out of position, recommand the heel. You're asking her to heel not perform a 'walking back' exercise ;)

[Roova]

Thanks Nekhbet I can see how that would happen. I was trying to avoid a collar pop and growl everytime she forged ahead but I can see there are then two separate events happening.

Sorry for my ignorance but is a non reward marker a verbal word like uh oh or try again etc? Does it differ to the UGH! I was using previously with the collar pop? Do I still come to a stop after saying the nrm so she can reposition or is she meant to do this as I'm heeling?

Sorry for 20 questions but this is all quite new to me. Thank you for your help :)

Edited May 6, 2015 by Roova

[Kavik]

When I use a NRM it does NOT mean that there is a correction coming, it means try again, that wasn't quite right. I use an upbeat voice, whoops, and want the dog to come back to me with an upbeat attitude to try again. I only use them in very specific circumstances, such as training the weave poles, if they miss a weave entry, when there is a behaviour chain, and I don't want the rest of the chain to be continued (as doing the rest is reinforcing in itself).

[Nekhbet]

The dog does not understand the exercise so there is no need for a punishment. Kavik is spot on with a NRM, it means whoops try again! The point is not to demotivate the dog while learning so you find you can train for longer without losing momentum.

I have made a PDF for my clients I will send it to you tonight. Explains things simply for you :D