Simply Grand Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 This thought floats around in my head quite regularly. So I understand the concept that they learn that a certain behaviour means they get something rewarding so they are willing to repeat the behaviour. But there's no way that the half a Goodo Quinn gets (sometimes, not every time but fairly often) as a reward for recalling actually brings her more enjoyment than racing over to the kid she's spotted and smothering them with kisses would. Ad yet she'll still come to me when I call in that situation. Saxon will stand on his hind legs and spin in a circle 10 times in a row when a little kid figures out that they can get him to and then inevitably doesn't actually give him a treat reward :laugh: I know he expects the reward eventually but even with no sign of it if they keep cuing him he'll keep spinning. Today all three of mine were working their butts off trying to earn "treats" from a lady we know at the park. The treats in question? The same dry kibble they get for their meals every day. I'm sure we could all give a million examples of this so how does it work? I guess there is some combination of a drive to work with us as part of their "pack" (but why do they respond to people who aren't in their pack?) and conditioning plus they get attention I guess but I wonder if they actually get something intrinsically rewarding from doing the things we ask of them. It has to be more than just "maybe this time I'll get a tiny piece of something yummyish". Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) Are you releasing the dog back to play? If so, I give you Premack. One of my favourite theorists! However it is much more complicated than that. There's intermittent reinforcement (the 10 spins) and all the emotional stuff that goes with it. Need to go eat but it's an interesting discussion! Edited March 18, 2015 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 Not always TSD, with Quinn she often goes on the lead in this circumstances, sometimes we then approach the child, other times I can't be bothered training so we just walk away. I shall read about Premack though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 I've been reading about Premack and that makes sense, and to me ties in with NILIF type training. It's interesting to really think about what your dog actually really wants. And I understand the power of intermittent reinforcement, but why is a tiny piece of food, or a play with a toy or even just praise so worthwhile to them? I get that if I was giving them a sausage, or they thought I might give them a sausage, they might choose that over racing around or jumping on people but surely they realise that there aren't a bunch of sausages in the treat pouch we use every day with the same treats in it? I guess I'm thinking about the emotions of it and how it ties in with the MRI research that shows that dogs do appear to have feelings for humans, and maybe it isn't just reinforcement/punishment etc that shape their behaviour but actually also an emotional desire to please us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) I think it's hard to nail down as there's a lot of variation between and within breeds - I just have to look at my Dally and my ESS - definite breed differences and I suspect gender differences and then if course is the human factor - what I bring to the table, my timing, my response to mistakes and successes, my ability to engage with each dog (play!) etc etc. I don't really think it's an emotional desire to please us but it's certainly about the relationship and what they find rewarding. Just on that, sometimes when I'm training agility I will set up a test that involves the dog knowing there is a plate of food beyond the jump (this is rehearsed a couple of times) and then we approach the jumps in the same way but I give a verbal turn cue to take a different jump and they get a reward from my hand (or thrown). Now I party with my dogs when they get it right - if they happen to ignore the verbal and race to the bait plate I don't party at all. I load the plate again, race at it full speed but give the verbal cue to turn and the dog makes the correct choice. I think that's pretty cool. And if you want an example of where if doesn't work you just have to look at some of my classes in the first week - folk dangling food in front of their dogs and still being ignored. Edited March 20, 2015 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Yes, the 'party' thing definitely makes a different with my dogs, they all respond to it regardless of whether they also get a food reward. Maybe it's just fun for them :) ETA - but I can imagine there are some dogs who would think you were weird, or scary, if you carried on in excitement at them. Edited March 20, 2015 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Yes, the 'party' thing definitely makes a different with my dogs, they all respond to it regardless of whether they also get a food reward. Maybe it's just fun for them :) ETA - but I can imagine there are some dogs who would think you were weird, or scary, if you carried on in excitement at them. Yes I agree but I guess that's where the powers of observation are important. Generally I start slowly with an unfamiliar dog - just a touch and feint - very Spaniel like play actually - and then build it alongside sufficient self-control. I party with my Dally but it's relatively hands off. A party with my ESS is more like WWF! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Yes, the 'party' thing definitely makes a different with my dogs, they all respond to it regardless of whether they also get a food reward. Maybe it's just fun for them :) ETA - but I can imagine there are some dogs who would think you were weird, or scary, if you carried on in excitement at them. Yes I agree but I guess that's where the powers of observation are important. Generally I start slowly with an unfamiliar dog - just a touch and feint - very Spaniel like play actually - and then build it alongside sufficient self-control. I party with my Dally but it's relatively hands off. A party with my ESS is more like WWF! It's interesting, isn't it. Increasingly I'm emphasising the relationship thing in my own training, and in teaching classes at dog club. (Been spending a lot of time in the Fenzi Academy as well as in Susan Garrett's course. :laugh: ) As you say, TSD, observation is really important - work with the dog you have in front of you .. and that includes our own dogs - whether they'e right on, or having an off day, or overly distracted etc.etc. The rewards and the way we deliver them are part of the relationship building .... I think maybe the giving of the reward may help us to make sure we're paying attention to the things like maintaining clear criteria, increasing difficulty in small increments, developing good timing ... those things that really are crucial to success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 I wrote a blog post about this a while ago. Why would my dog recall off a live rabbit to bite a plain piece of linen? IMO creating reward experience is a big part of it. http://blog.k9pro.com.au/creating-the-reward-experience/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 That's a great article, huski. Are you OK if I share that on our dog club FB page please? Here's something that's come up in the last week or so on ABC radio ...all part of the same picture, I'd think. the 'love hormone' and training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) That's a great article, huski. Are you OK if I share that on our dog club FB page please? Here's something that's come up in the last week or so on ABC radio ...all part of the same picture, I'd think. the 'love hormone' and training Go for it! The other thing I would add is that when we train in drive we are not just giving the dog a toy or food reward but a chemical reward, a release of endorphins and dopamine. It is common when we cue our dogs into drive that we see them shake with adrenalin or jaw chatter. Edited March 21, 2015 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 You should see Em shake from head to tail when I put my white retrieving jacket on. It's quite something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 huski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 A great reward experience is important but dogs have also evolved, and we have selected for dogs that bond closely with their owner and actually care about human attention and praise. Some dogs more so than others... Dogs and humans have been amazingly co-dependent for years, it's only recently people starting keeping them as companionS only. There are new studies that show dogs can read our facial expressions and pick out their owners by only looking at a photo of their eyes!!! Pretty amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksandr Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 A great reward experience is important but dogs have also evolved, and we have selected for dogs that bond closely with their owner and actually care about human attention and praise. Some dogs more so than others... Dogs and humans have been amazingly co-dependent for years, it's only recently people starting keeping them as companionS only. There are new studies that show dogs can read our facial expressions and pick out their owners by only looking at a photo of their eyes!!! Pretty amazing. Treating a dog as a sub-class in training never paid off in my case. Think about your dog as your mate and they sense that and they do best they could to prove that. Too easy to scare the dog and very hard to become an authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 A great reward experience is important but dogs have also evolved, and we have selected for dogs that bond closely with their owner and actually care about human attention and praise. Some dogs more so than others... In the context of training though, IME for many (most) dogs a good work ethic is something that has to be developed. Yes dogs have developed over time to have pack drive and enjoy our company but many people still have trouble with their dogs in training, even people with more "biddable" breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 There's study. Has to do with oxytocin... http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2015/03/16/4191191.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I think it depends on the individual dog and breed plays a part too. We could sit a fresh marrowbone on the ground and the border collies would turn themselves inside out trying to work for the kibble in our hands and the opportunity to interact with us. The terriers on the other hand would show us the finger and run off with the bone :laugh: Even within the border collies there are big variances. The ones who would work the hardest to please us are the dogs who have been raised with the philosophy of "interacting with Mum is the most funnest thing in the whole wide world". The older ones were victims of the older style training methods and "don't tug with your dog or you will create dominance issues" way of thinking. They have come a long way but will never have the same intrinsic value for working with us that the younger dogs do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) 1426905014[/url]' post='6666524']I wrote a blog post about this a while ago. Why would my dog recall off a live rabbit to bite a plain piece of linen? IMO creating reward experience is a big part of it. http://blog.k9pro.co...ard-experience/ I shared this to my training club too :) I clicked the link to try to get to the eBook for the 'Show Me' game but it's a dead link. Edited March 22, 2015 by LisaCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suziwong66 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Are you releasing the dog back to play? If so, I give you Premack. One of my favourite theorists! However it is much more complicated than that. There's intermittent reinforcement (the 10 spins) and all the emotional stuff that goes with it. Need to go eat but it's an interesting discussion! one of my 'behaviour/learning environment management' lecturers at uni called it "Grandma's Rule" - eat your vegetable and then you can have your dessert LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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