Bitches Out On Breeders Terms

[leopuppy04]

Hi All,

Have a question for breeders who send their bitches out on breeders terms. I have two (technically 3) currently out on breeders terms with 2 likely to be bred late this year/ early next year. One is likely to come back to me for a litter, the other is likely to raise the litter in her own home due to the owner having sufficient experience and she has been showing her/ training her etc for the last 2 years. These two bitches are in very different homes were one is in a show/ performance home and the other in a pet home (but experienced pet home.

My question is a) what do you do with your bitches - do they come back to you or do they stay with their owners? If bitch stays with you - do you keep her till pups go or only to a certain age?

b) finances - do you pay for the litter, does the raiser pay for the cost of the litter/ do you split the costs

c) Do you offer the (pet) owner of the bitch the choice of a pup or the price of a pup for leasing their bitch back to you?

Just trying to decide what is most fair. I'm thinking I will be doing one of each given the different circumstances. The one I raise, she will get option of a pup/ purchase price of a pup as a 'thank you'. The one the owner raises then she will outlay the costs (and retain all puppy purchase fees) but if this doesn't break even then I will pay 50% of what she is out of pocket or something like that.... What do you think is fair and reasonable?

[Sandra777]

Honestly I think this should've been sorted out before the bitches left your care....

I haven't done breeders terms as such but I have twice leased back a bitch I bred.

1) The owners had paid for her but not full price (she was an older re-home, long story!). She had lived with us as an adult so "sort-of" knew us.

I picked her up, took her to the dog and returned her to their place. 6 weeks later I picked her up again, as she was to whelp at our house.

She only had one pup (which we kept), the owners were happy to have a pup from a different litter so they got a pup from her aunty about 6 months later. ETA: for free

2) The owner bought the bitch as a puppy (had waited nearly 3 years for her). We kept the sister. Sister turned out to be a horrible mother.

Owner took the bitch to the dog as it was close to her (she is an experienced breeder). I paid the stud fee direct to the stud owner.

At 6 weeks the bitch was flown to us as owner was going overseas. This was arranged right from the start, if she'd not been going overseas she would have whelped the litter herself.

We raised the litter, paid all costs involved. Kept two pups and the proceeds of the sale of the rest of the litter (ie total sales, not "profit") was given to the owner of the bitch. This was a total of the sale of 4 pups. So technically I got one pup for paying the stud fee and one pup "free" even though everyone knows raising a litter is an expensive undertaking! This was a nightmare litter actually as the bitch got black mastitis and was very very ill - while her owner was uncontactable overseas. That doG we had known each other for nearly 20 years :)

Edited March 16, 2015 by Sandra777

[bridgie_cat]

I have a girl out, who we are not sure if we will breed, but we sorted terms with the new owners before they bought her.

Charged normal purchase price (in Shelties there is often no difference between pet and show price), they are raising the litter and are responsible for all costs associated (stud fee, eye testing which is mandatory in the breed, vet fees) and receive all moneys from puppies. If I want to do additional testing I will pay for that (DNA etc). i have said I will pay for registration of the pups (largely because they are being bred in my kennel name and this would simplify any paperwork etc - it is not a big part of the cost). I have the option of purchasing pick puppy for the same price as they paid for their girl - as I would be picking the stud and it would be part of my ongoing breeding plans etc (if I had arranged this with someone wanting to start up with a foundation etc then I would need to have considered whether I was taking first pick in the first litter then signing her over or ?? but this family really wanted to breed a litter with support but not much more from there so it is simple).

It was what seemed most fair and simple to me - but it is very situation specific I think…

Edited March 16, 2015 by bridgie_cat

[leopuppy04]

Honestly I think this should've been sorted out before the bitches left your care....

Actually it IS written in their contract what I expect from a 'breeders terms' bitch however I think that as circumstances change and you know that they are responsible/ caring people you can move a little on this and I want to do what is right for both mum and also her owners. Both owners that I am talking about here have signed a contract to say that bitch comes back to me for a litter, however I think this is very difficult for someone to go for up to 10 weeks without their dog (sometimes their only dog!) and I want to do what is reasonable for them, not make them stick to something they no longer feel comfortable with.

I haven't done breeders terms as such but I have twice leased back a bitch I bred.

1) The owners had paid for her but not full price (she was an older re-home, long story!). She had lived with us as an adult so "sort-of" knew us.

I picked her up, took her to the dog and returned her to their place. 6 weeks later I picked her up again, as she was to whelp at our house.

She only had one pup (which we kept), the owners were happy to have a pup from a different litter so they got a pup from her aunty about 6 months later. ETA: for free

This sounds similar to what I want to do with the older bitch. Owner wants something to show and she wants to keep something from the litter. I have already told her that she can have her pick from the litter (under our guidance of course as to what we feel is best for what she wants (show and performance)). There will be no payment for this puppy.

2) The owner bought the bitch as a puppy (had waited nearly 3 years for her). We kept the sister. Sister turned out to be a horrible mother.

Owner took the bitch to the dog as it was close to her (she is an experienced breeder). I paid the stud fee direct to the stud owner.

At 6 weeks the bitch was flown to us as owner was going overseas. This was arranged right from the start, if she'd not been going overseas she would have whelped the litter herself.

We raised the litter, paid all costs involved. Kept two pups and the proceeds of the sale of the rest of the litter (ie total sales, not "profit") was given to the owner of the bitch. This was a total of the sale of 4 pups. So technically I got one pup for paying the stud fee and one pup "free" even though everyone knows raising a litter is an expensive undertaking! This was a nightmare litter actually as the bitch got black mastitis and was very very ill - while her owner was uncontactable overseas. That doG we had known each other for nearly 20 years :)

Firstly - I use the term 'profits' loosely 4 litters in and I am yet to see any "profits". Perhaps I should use the terms monies instead if people find that less offensive? Anyway - that is beside the point. My main concern is that I do not want my puppy buyers who are allowing me to continue my lines (and kennel name) through their bitch to be out of pocket. I don't care if they end up a little better off ie: from a big litter, easy whelping etc.. as that would be my 'thank you' for all the hard work of raising, but I certainly don't want them to be out of pocket, so I'm trying to work out what is fair and reasonable.

I think in a round about way - you have answered my questions as it is pretty much exactly what I envisage for both scenarios, however both owners I think would want to be heavily involved in the raising, breeding and decision making, which I would be more than happy to include them in.

I have a girl out, who we are not sure if we will breed, but we sorted terms with the new owners before they bought her.

Charged normal purchase price (in Shelties there is often no difference between pet and show price), they are raising the litter and are responsible for all costs associated (stud fee, eye testing which is mandatory in the breed, vet fees) and receive all moneys from puppies. If I want to do additional testing I will pay for that (DNA etc). i have said I will pay for registration of the pups (largely because they are being bred in my kennel name and this would simplify any paperwork etc - it is not a big part of the cost). I have the option of purchasing pick puppy for the same price as they paid for their girl - as I would be picking the stud and it would be part of my ongoing breeding plans etc (if I had arranged this with someone wanting to start up with a foundation etc then I would need to have considered whether I was taking first pick in the first litter then signing her over or ?? but this family really wanted to breed a litter with support but not much more from there so it is simple).

It was what seemed most fair and simple to me - but it is very situation specific I think…

Thanks BC. This is what I am thinking is the most fair scenario - whoever does the 'raising' is responsible for all of the associated costs - but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing anything untoward to the owners of the bitch. Like I said - I don't want them to be excessively out of pocket (as we sometimes can be) due to a complicated whelping and pregnancy.

[Heidley]

I would be very careful about letting someone else whelp a litter in my prefix.......it would be difficult if the litter financially impacted on them, such as needing a ceasar and needing to pay at the time etc, you need a tool to track expenses, and discuss what is reasonable, do you contribute to their electricity bill those sort of things, most importantly both parties need to be comfortable to talk throughoutand feel ok to say when it's not working. Good luck with whichever path you choose, I'd probably stick to the original plan in the contract

[alpha bet]

I received my first GSD bitch on breeders terms in 1982... also had two litters in partnership on a co-owned bitch in the '80's... i think it was more common back then for people to put dogs and bitches out on terms and definately seemed more encouraging back then compared to some breeders terms I have heard of lately.... I use the same basic system as per what my original breeder mentor used.

Bitch goes out on terms - no charge and stays in my name with VCA but resides with them. They pay all the usual costs for keeping a pet but I pay for any fees with regard to hip/elbow, dna testing etc. Bitch is also able to stay with me when no charge when in season if this suits the family.

All the girls reside near me (within an hour drive) so this makes it easier... then depending on the family the bitch might come here to whelp or I go to them when the birth is imminent. If litter whelped at my home the plan is for the girl to be here a week before and stay till pups are 5-6 weeks old.

If at their home and all is well then the litter will stay there for the first 2 to 3 weeks. I visit regularly to check how pups are going and we weigh and record any info needed. By 3 weeks they are ready to start feeding, this could mean that the litter and bitch come home with me... this way I can start the puppy socialising program. Bitch can then go home at 6 weeks.

The litter is in my name therefore decisions on Testing, Dog, Names etc are mine - Financially I pay the costs relating to stud dog, AI, progesterone tests etc. I also buy the puppy food and any related costs to registration of pups, microchip vaccination etc. I also provide the whelping box, vet mats and playpens for the family to use.

First litter belongs to me 100%... the agreement is for 5 or more puppies (surviving 48 hours).... if the litter is smaller then a second litter is done as a 50/50 deal. If there were no surviving pups then I have the chance for a litter at her next season.

If the bitch has more than the 5 healthy pups I am then happy to sign the dog over and they could have the option of breeding their own litter... however if they want to breed with me in partnership that is fine and the bitch stays in my name and we go 50/50 on everything next time round. this litter will also be bred under my prefix under my system.

So far had no problems...

Edited March 17, 2015 by alpha bet

[leopuppy04]

I received my first GSD bitch on breeders terms in 1982... also had two litters in partnership on a co-owned bitch in the '80's... i think it was more common back then for people to put dogs and bitches out on terms and definately seemed more encouraging back then compared to some breeders terms I have heard of lately.... I use the same basic system as per what my original breeder mentor used.

Bitch goes out on terms - no charge and stays in my name with VCA but resides with them. They pay all the usual costs for keeping a pet but I pay for any fees with regard to hip/elbow, dna testing etc. Bitch is also able to stay with me when no charge when in season if this suits the family.

All the girls reside near me (within an hour drive) so this makes it easier... then depending on the family the bitch might come here to whelp or I go to them when the birth is imminent. If litter whelped at my home the plan is for the girl to be here a week before and stay till pups are 5-6 weeks old.

If at their home and all is well then the litter will stay there for the first 2 to 3 weeks. I visit regularly to check how pups are going and we weigh and record any info needed. By 3 weeks they are ready to start feeding, this could mean that the litter and bitch come home with me... this way I can start the puppy socialising program. Bitch can then go home at 6 weeks.

The litter is in my name therefore decisions on Testing, Dog, Names etc are mine - Financially I pay the costs relating to stud dog, AI, progesterone tests etc. I also buy the puppy food and any related costs to registration of pups, microchip vaccination etc. I also provide the whelping box, vet mats and playpens for the family to use.

First litter belongs to me 100%... the agreement is for 5 or more puppies (surviving 48 hours).... if the litter is smaller then a second litter is done as a 50/50 deal. If there were no surviving pups then I have the chance for a litter at her next season.

If the bitch has more than the 5 healthy pups I am then happy to sign the dog over and they could have the option of breeding their own litter... however if they want to breed with me in partnership that is fine and the bitch stays in my name and we go 50/50 on everything next time round. this litter will also be bred under my prefix under my system.

So far had no problems...

Thanks AB - this sounds very well thought out and I think it sounds like it covers all bases. My biggest thing is that i do not want the person who is 'raising' the litter for me to be out of pocket or feel backed into a corner - so I think I will stick to my original plan of lets just have an open discussion and see what is mutually agreeable for all parties. I think that breeders terms can work really well when both parties enter with a good understanding and agreement of what is to be expected.

[Heidley]

Sounds like a good system Alpha Bet. :) Good luck in your discussion leopuppy

[bridgie_cat]

I should add that in my situation the new owner really wanted to have a litter, without prompting, and was very happy for it to be part of my breeding plan/under my prefix etc when I offered that option. This being the case, they are happily taking on the risk that anyone breeding a litter takes on re costs of c-sections and other vet bills etc (and we discussed this).

I am sure I would feel differently if I had talked them into a litter….

I must say that if I was covering all costs of a litter I would be very inclined to have the bitch when she was whelping and probably the first few weeks of puppies (when things could be more complicated) - whether or not she and the pups stayed until 8-12wks or for too much of the pregnancy etc that could be worked around - but if I was taking responsibility of c-sections etc I would want to be the one supervising, making the call, using my vet etc.

I would feel awkward myself and also like I was putting the owner in a tricker decision making position to have them hand off all the bills after the fact… At least if I make the call and I am paying for X Y Z (sections, sick puppies, general checks etc) then I would not feel the added pressure of justifying spending someone else's money - a layer of complication I would not want to get into.

Edited March 18, 2015 by bridgie_cat

[Rebanne]

I recently leased a bitch back to breed from. I covered all breeding costs including C-section. I also paid for vaccinations and microchipping. Other owner had only feeding costs of litter to cover. I had 1st pick, they had 2nd pick and I got the rest of the litter. Their pup was for the lend of the bitch and the extra food. Hand shake agreement. ETA other owner was experienced breeder.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Rebanne

[mini girl]

I received my first GSD bitch on breeders terms in 1982... also had two litters in partnership on a co-owned bitch in the '80's... i think it was more common back then for people to put dogs and bitches out on terms and definately seemed more encouraging back then compared to some breeders terms I have heard of lately.... I use the same basic system as per what my original breeder mentor used.

Bitch goes out on terms - no charge and stays in my name with VCA but resides with them. They pay all the usual costs for keeping a pet but I pay for any fees with regard to hip/elbow, dna testing etc. Bitch is also able to stay with me when no charge when in season if this suits the family.

All the girls reside near me (within an hour drive) so this makes it easier... then depending on the family the bitch might come here to whelp or I go to them when the birth is imminent. If litter whelped at my home the plan is for the girl to be here a week before and stay till pups are 5-6 weeks old.

If at their home and all is well then the litter will stay there for the first 2 to 3 weeks. I visit regularly to check how pups are going and we weigh and record any info needed. By 3 weeks they are ready to start feeding, this could mean that the litter and bitch come home with me... this way I can start the puppy socialising program. Bitch can then go home at 6 weeks.

The litter is in my name therefore decisions on Testing, Dog, Names etc are mine - Financially I pay the costs relating to stud dog, AI, progesterone tests etc. I also buy the puppy food and any related costs to registration of pups, microchip vaccination etc. I also provide the whelping box, vet mats and playpens for the family to use.

First litter belongs to me 100%... the agreement is for 5 or more puppies (surviving 48 hours).... if the litter is smaller then a second litter is done as a 50/50 deal. If there were no surviving pups then I have the chance for a litter at her next season.

If the bitch has more than the 5 healthy pups I am then happy to sign the dog over and they could have the option of breeding their own litter... however if they want to breed with me in partnership that is fine and the bitch stays in my name and we go 50/50 on everything next time round. this litter will also be bred under my prefix under my system.

So far had no problems...

This is very similar to how I have done breeders terms too. They can go wrong though so know who you are putting your dog with. If it's fair for both parties and the person does the right thing by you it can be fine.

[Mystiqview]

My standard agreement is the person pays for the dog up front. (I don't charge more for pet/show/performance home).

If I use the dog at stud or for a litter, either way - the person gets a full refund of their purchase price OR 2nd pick of a pup.

The full costs of the litter are borne by me as it after all my litter. All proceeds from the litter come back to me with the exception of the above.

The reason I do this, is the person has looked after, trained and the dog for me. This is a saving to me by not having the dog at my place. If I had kept the animal at my place, then training, food, etc and cost of health tests would normally have been borne by me as well if the dog had stayed here.

The reason I charge up front is if the person desexed the dog before it is bred - they still have their pet at the normal rate and I have at least the puppy money from that sale so no one is out of pocket.

If the bitch/dog is in another breeder home and you both want use of the dog/bitch, then the cost of health testing is 50:50. Each litter costs are borne by the party doing the litter.

I try to be fair in this regard. The person who is looking after your dog for up to two years is doing you a favour. I offer back the choice of a pup or their full purchase price as a thank you. If the dog stayed with me, I would not have got a purchase price to begin with, so that is no loss.

As for whelping/raising the litter - I guess that comes down to trust and the person's ability to do so. If I felt the person capable of doing it, then it would be better if the bitch stayed there in her known comfortable surrounds. Otherwise I get the bitch back two weeks prior to whelping so she can settle in. Once the pups are about 4-5 weeks old or fully weaned, then I see no issue of sending the bitch back to the owners.

I have one bitch out at present on breeder terms. I will probably whelp her here as they are not experienced. After the pups are two weeks old if she is comfortable with it, send bitch and pups to her for raising with guidance. She lives only 15 minutes from me, so I am not too far away to lend assistance if needed. At worse, I will at least try to get the family of the bitch owner involved and maybe even be present at whelping and involved in their raising of the pups (I don't have kids, so the fact the family has children is good once the pups get older for child socialisation)

[leopuppy04]

My standard agreement is the person pays for the dog up front. (I don't charge more for pet/show/performance home).

If I use the dog at stud or for a litter, either way - the person gets a full refund of their purchase price OR 2nd pick of a pup.

The full costs of the litter are borne by me as it after all my litter. All proceeds from the litter come back to me with the exception of the above.

The reason I do this, is the person has looked after, trained and the dog for me. This is a saving to me by not having the dog at my place. If I had kept the animal at my place, then training, food, etc and cost of health tests would normally have been borne by me as well if the dog had stayed here.

The reason I charge up front is if the person desexed the dog before it is bred - they still have their pet at the normal rate and I have at least the puppy money from that sale so no one is out of pocket.

If the bitch/dog is in another breeder home and you both want use of the dog/bitch, then the cost of health testing is 50:50. Each litter costs are borne by the party doing the litter.

I try to be fair in this regard. The person who is looking after your dog for up to two years is doing you a favour. I offer back the choice of a pup or their full purchase price as a thank you. If the dog stayed with me, I would not have got a purchase price to begin with, so that is no loss.

As for whelping/raising the litter - I guess that comes down to trust and the person's ability to do so. If I felt the person capable of doing it, then it would be better if the bitch stayed there in her known comfortable surrounds. Otherwise I get the bitch back two weeks prior to whelping so she can settle in. Once the pups are about 4-5 weeks old or fully weaned, then I see no issue of sending the bitch back to the owners.

I have one bitch out at present on breeder terms. I will probably whelp her here as they are not experienced. After the pups are two weeks old if she is comfortable with it, send bitch and pups to her for raising with guidance. She lives only 15 minutes from me, so I am not too far away to lend assistance if needed. At worse, I will at least try to get the family of the bitch owner involved and maybe even be present at whelping and involved in their raising of the pups (I don't have kids, so the fact the family has children is good once the pups get older for child socialisation)

Some great advice here - thanks :)