Canisbellum Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Jonah has torn his Right rear cruciate ligament. The vets are pushing surgery but I am not keen, has anyone had a dog recover from this without surgery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksandra 157 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I had my Keeshond operated on ,I don't think at that time there were alternatives then,8 yrs ago.One month later she did other knee !! Expensive month. It left her with bad arthritis as she aged ,so I would try other options if possible.Good luck :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonwoman Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Jonah has torn his Right rear cruciate ligament. The vets are pushing surgery but I am not keen, has anyone had a dog recover from this without surgery? Surgery is only real option, unless you want the dog to suffer undue pain for rest of his life, they don't repair themselves..................find a good surgeon and even then the best possible recovery only comes with very careful aftercare for weeks and qualified rehab if you have access................voice of experience speaking!! And if the dog favours one leg the other will almost surely go too, unless definitely a trauma, cruciates go because of poor construction so likelihood of both stifles is high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brookestar Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Jonah has torn his Right rear cruciate ligament. The vets are pushing surgery but I am not keen, has anyone had a dog recover from this without surgery? Surgery is only real option, unless you want the dog to suffer undue pain for rest of his life, they don't repair themselves..................find a good surgeon and even then the best possible recovery only comes with very careful aftercare for weeks and qualified rehab if you have access................voice of experience speaking!! And if the dog favours one leg the other will almost surely go too, unless definitely a trauma, cruciates go because of poor construction so likelihood of both stifles is high I would agree with this totally. Find a specialist surgeon if at all possible, as they are able to do different sorts of operations to the standard ones that the average vet will do. Also want to do all you can to get access to an animal physiotherapist, as they are the best chance of best recovery. The sooner it is done the better the outcome, as at present they will be putting extra pressure on the other leg, which means it is more likely to go. There are some animal physiotherapists that are now offering services via online means, video the dog, you doing things they suggest, with them seeing it, etc. For those that cannot get access to physio's in person I would think it would be the next best thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 There are some Animal Physio's in WA. I suggest talking to them. We actually don't have much scientific evidence of surgery vs formal rehabilitation (plenty of surgery vs nothing and one type of surgery vs another but again no rehabilitation for any of these surgeries). I used to be 100% behind surgery but since managing cases some do respond to therapy alone- but it is a lot of work and can be just as expensive as surgery. I do think this is only an option with sound advice from someone who understands the mechanics of the problem and how to rehab and encourage the right muscles to work. Not something to DIY. Best of luck with Jonah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) I too have been through three ACL repairs with the one westie and all three times surgery was required. I agree with previous posters - you are most likely to end up with the other leg going almost regardless of what you do - which is why its a virtually automatic exclusion under most pet insurance policies where there is a pre-existing ACL tear. (The second ACL repair failed and needed specialist re-repair which in hindsight - a wonderful thing - should have happened in the first place) Then there is the enormous effort to rehab non-surgically and the associated pain - not to mention if the non-surgical rehab is unsuccessful you've had a dog in pain at risk of the other ACL going for probably months. Then the cost of surgery on top of that. Often surgery is seen as a last resort - usually on cost grounds. But I've learned with Mac that its not always the last resort and non-surgical 'mucking around' can sometimes be more expensive in the long run. For example I really regret not having Mac's ear ablation done sooner - would have saved months of expense and severe pain for him. So for me the bottom line is I think there are some things where surgery should be the first option - not the last - and structural issues like ACL repairs are usually one of them. Hope that helps and best of luck from me too . Edited February 22, 2015 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Westiemum- regardless of time to surgery, type of surgery cruciate rupture on the other side is at least 40-60%. I have to say with early rehab regardless of surgery I have seen significantly lower rates of bilateral disease. This is because we should be spending at least as much time and energy working on the 'good leg as we do the 'bad' leg. Further the requirement for surgery should be made on a case by case situation. It is not a last resort but one of many options that all have benefits and risks associated. There are times where I absolutely itch to get in with a scalpel because the benefits are so huge- ear ablations are a really good example. CCL is a little more grey IMO and the whole situation- dedication of owner, access to appropriate complimentary therapy, underwater treadmill, multimodal pain relief and the degree of laxity in the joint at present should all be considered. I have had clients dogs who have a ruptured CCL who's leg is so stable due to muscular strength that surgery would actually put them further behind on the road to recovery. Meniscal damage is another factor. I hope the OP can find someone who has experience that can judge the actual dog and injury to help give them the information they need to make an informed decision. Here is a link to a pretty amazing Physical Therapist in the US who I hope to meet this year!! I really wish we could do the studies on our furry friends that humans have! Please, please take the time to read it. http://www.puprehabfl.com/#!dog-rehabilitation-blog/c1ojl/information-on-cranial-cruciate-tears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Excellent post Jumabaar. Wish there were more vets like you around. That rehab link is amazing and that is one gorgeous westie - thanks for posting - I wish that had been around when Mac was going through his first ACL repair in early 2007 - we might have avoided that first lot of ACL surgery. My Mac is a 15.5 year old puppy farm rescue dog who spent his early years almost exclusively in a concrete dog run - the vet commented when he finally got out that his back leg musculature was really poor and his knees were really unstable - very 'clicky'. Also should have mentioned that the second ACL rupture where the first repair failed needed the leg angle surgically changed (from memory it was too straight?) Not to mention that I had no access to decent rehab - 'DIY rehab' was my only option - so surgery was the best option for us. Mac now has a plate in the leg which is apparently typically used in repairs for large breeds. But you're right and I'm happy to be corrected - rehab certainly has its place with ACLs. Have forwarded your link to my PT friend with a new mini schnauzer puppy! Edited February 22, 2015 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Access to assistance is a huge factor and I agree you made the best decision for Mac. Clicky usually means icky on so many levels. It certainly makes the decision for surgery much more clear!! There is so much we don't know because we have never even considered the possibility. 2 years ago I had no idea how much difference having strong supporting muscles could make to so many different conditions! There are so many times where I hear a case and think 'yup there is the treatment' then stop and think about how that treatment could be made better. Most of the time that leads me to sending off a heap of emails to see if anyone has any additional experience. I love Facebook and the internet- so much knowledge and information that I can get to world wide and give my clients the best treatment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canisbellum Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 I live in kalgoorlie which has zero facilitys no hydrotherapy dog physios etc. The surgery itself would have to be performed in Perth or other big city and I work long hours travel a lot for work and am trying to get the finances and time for cancer treatment for myself. All in all pretty much almost the worst case situation. Jonah is now on Myloxicam and Cartrophan injections and if I didnt tell you what was wrong you would think he was in perfect health. I am restricting his running and jumping as much as possible to his disgust and only short walks on lead. Being a Shar Pei he is almost impervious to pain. He is lean and fit from lots of running in the bush with muscular legs. I am going to to give him 6 weeks or so to see if there is any improvement if not I will sort surgery out somehow. This is him approx 3 weeks ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brookestar Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I live in kalgoorlie which has zero facilitys no hydrotherapy dog physios etc. The surgery itself would have to be performed in Perth or other big city and I work long hours travel a lot for work and am trying to get the finances and time for cancer treatment for myself. All in all pretty much almost the worst case situation. Jonah is now on Myloxicam and Cartrophan injections and if I didnt tell you what was wrong you would think he was in perfect health. I am restricting his running and jumping as much as possible to his disgust and only short walks on lead. Being a Shar Pei he is almost impervious to pain. He is lean and fit from lots of running in the bush with muscular legs. I am going to to give him 6 weeks or so to see if there is any improvement if not I will sort surgery out somehow. This is him approx 3 weeks ago Animal physio offering online consultation. http://www.holisticanimalphysio.com.au/online-consultation.htm Try to keep him off any hard surfaces, wooden floors, etc, put mats down to assist, much easier said than done. If you do end up going down the surgery route in Perth I would assume, then try to at least have one consultation with a physio or something, while there, so they can actually write up a rehab plan for you, better coming from them, than a surgeon. I hope things work out for both of you. Clearly you both need luck at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Oh what time you are having! I think if ever there was a time to sit down and just hug your dog I think it would be right now! You both sound like you need one. If you are on FB have a look at the 'canine conditioning and Body awareness' group. It is a great page where you can get a little bit of an understanding of what would be 'danger' exercises and things to avoid even if we can't give you any specific advice. Lots of lovely people with amazing advice- although be prepared to be jealous as most of them are american and have much greater access to therapists. If nothing else it will give you ideas to maintain his good leg to try and reduce the risk of it going. Pain relief is the biggest thing and you have that taken care of. And the fact that he is not overweight and has a great deal of fitness are all things that are amazing. So in that case he is actually miles ahead of most of my clients where we are trying to drop their weight by 10-15% and they don't have much muscle to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canisbellum Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 Thanks for the info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOLAFOLATA Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) Jonah has torn his Right rear cruciate ligament. The vets are pushing surgery but I am not keen, has anyone had a dog recover from this without surgery? Hi Canetoad, I have 3 1/2 yo English Mastiff bitch. She has more health and behavioral issues than I care to mention. Couple of years ago now she did her right cruciate. Surgery wasn't an option. We had already undergone hip surgery previously which now I think may have exacerbated the cruciate injuries. I started her with weekly acupuncture and confinement for 3 months. She improved markedly but I allowed her freedom too quickly. The right cruciate held up but then tore the left when I introduced her to our new dog. It was most likely weakened by having to bear her weight. I still didn't want to do surgery. We undertook another period of confinement, course of acupuncture and I tried a harness contraption from the US (total waste of $800-don't go there) and physio exercises. She was bearing weight and moving well - she jumped up on our bed and to my disbelief she did the right again (not so bad as first time & left was fine). Much stricter confinement regime was then undertaken. For 12 months she was confined to her own bedroom unless I was home, was toileted on lead and assisted up and down stairs in early days which I hadn't done previously. Taken for very short walks no inclines and probably only 4 houses up and back. Gentle slopes were introduced slowly and I was able to swim her twice a week in a neighbour's pool for a few weeks which I think helped tremendously. Happy to report now, that for last 4 months she is able to be outside in garden with our other dog and hasn't had relapse. She has developed good muscle tone in thighs which I think has helped keep her sound. I think the important thing is not to allow them to fully extend when running and limit any jumping. I still maintain regular acupuncture and will be looking into hydrotherapy again now a service has become available. She is on pain meds on as needs basis. I can tell when she's stiff and sore. I was skeptical about acupuncture at first but a definite convert. My girl with chronic fear of people is accepting of the vet, hops up on the bed of her own accord, lays down and snoozes through her treatment. Surgery isn't the only option available but if you choose therapeutic remedies you need to be prepared for a long slog and as another poster mentioned, it's no cheaper in long run. I did heaps of online research and there's plenty of conflicting opinions. The course I took suited my girl and our circumstances. Good luck! Edited February 24, 2015 by LOLAFOLATA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canisbellum Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Thanks for the input, I was looking at one of those braces may rethink it now. Found out the vets today that the X rays of his knee look perfectly normal they diagnosed it from laxity in his knee. Vet was also surprised he is not lame, limping or stiff, makes me even more convinced he will improve without surgery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I live in kalgoorlie which has zero facilitys no hydrotherapy dog physios etc. The surgery itself would have to be performed in Perth or other big city and I work long hours travel a lot for work and am trying to get the finances and time for cancer treatment for myself. All in all pretty much almost the worst case situation. Jonah is now on Myloxicam and Cartrophan injections and if I didnt tell you what was wrong you would think he was in perfect health. I am restricting his running and jumping as much as possible to his disgust and only short walks on lead. Being a Shar Pei he is almost impervious to pain. He is lean and fit from lots of running in the bush with muscular legs. I am going to to give him 6 weeks or so to see if there is any improvement if not I will sort surgery out somehow. This is him approx 3 weeks ago Just wanted to say Jonah is just gorgeous canetoad. A Shar Pei puppy named Kobe, beautiful chocolate boy, hitched a flight with me to Adelaide from Sydney to a new foster carer some years ago. He was a beautiful boy too who was so snuggly in the car at the Adelaide end! I think he was re-homed somewhere in the southern suburbs of Adelaide. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky-Dog Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Our 10 year Cattle X Lab ruptured both rear cruciates approx. 4.5 years ago within a week of each leg. Think it was the right first and then the left. Anyway he has two titanium plates, one in each rear leg. We think his two legs have cost us a bathroom renovation for each. :) He recovered quite well, it slowed him down a lot but he has a quality life one that could not be guaranteed without the $$$ spent. Well worth it. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coogie Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 The fact that he didn't have the surgery was nothing to do with money, Canetoad flew him to Brisbane and he saw two orthopaedic surgeons, both said no surgery. It might well have been worth it for your boy but it wasn't what was best for Jonah. He has a great quality of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samoyedman Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 (edited) I came home a week ago to find my dog limping. Off to the vet and after being sedated & x-rayed i was told it's his cruciate ligament and was given some pain killers for him and that was that. A week later he is still limping occasionally, though sometimes he seems normal and runs around like his usual self. The limping comes and goes. Should I rest him or walk him? Is there a timeframe on this before you would ask questions or go back to the vet? Does CL ever heal itself? From what I've read it doesn't - which is puzzling because my vet didn't say anything at all about any further treatment. A good link here: http://www.sydneyanimalhospitals.com.au/Emergency-Care/Cruciate-ligament-injury-in-dogs/ Edited December 16, 2016 by samoyedman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 (edited) I would be resting for the meantime and getting in touch with Primal Paws since your in Sydney :). http://www.primalpaws.com/. How old is your dog I am surprised you weren't offered anything else - if its a full tear and the knee is unstable then surgery is pretty much the best course of action. Speak with Dr Jaime (Jumabaar) if its a strain/partial tear then maybe you can rehab it. Edited December 16, 2016 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now