Four Corners: Greyhound Racing: Live Baiting Revelations

[Maddy]

bothers me a bit about wanting 100% rehomed. Not every dog, of any breed, is suitable to be rehomed.

This.

I'd elaborate on my support of this but.. I've been saying these things for years and no one listens anyway so..

[mita]

bothers me a bit about wanting 100% rehomed. Not every dog, of any breed, is suitable to be rehomed.

This.

I'd elaborate on my support of this but.. I've been saying these things for years and no one listens anyway so..

I remember someone posting on the rescue forum that even the so-called No Kill rescue movement believed that around 10% of dogs would not be rehomeable for valid reasons. But the movement's label remains misleading, given they're actually talking about No Kill of Rehomeable dogs. There was a quote from Nathan Winograd, the guru of 'No Kill', pointing to the great success of a US Shelter that'd achieved a 90% rehoming rate. The guru was thrilled with that.

How that particular percentage (10%) stacks up, would be open to discussion, as would what constitutes 'rehomeable'. But to say all dogs are rehomeable is out of touch with reality.

[HazyWal]

bothers me a bit about wanting 100% rehomed. Not every dog, of any breed, is suitable to be rehomed.

This.

I'd elaborate on my support of this but.. I've been saying these things for years and no one listens anyway so..

I remember someone posting on the rescue forum that even the so-called No Kill rescue movement believed that around 10% of dogs would not be rehomeable for valid reasons. But the movement's label remains misleading, given they're actually talking about No Kill of Rehomeable dogs. There was a quote from Nathan Winograd, the guru of 'No Kill', pointing to the great success of a US Shelter that'd achieved a 90% rehoming rate. The guru was thrilled with that.

How that particular percentage (10%) stacks up, would be open to discussion, as would what constitutes 'rehomeable'. But to say all dogs are rehomeable is out of touch with reality.

And sadly there are MANY greyhound "rescue" groups that are way out of touch with reality

[dogbesotted]

Owners and breeders should have to explain what happened to the pups that weren't registered as race dogs and they should be required to produce proof of what happened to them, same when the dog has finished racing . Only dogs and bitches that have officially run x time over x distance should allowed to be bred from.

I believe there are already rules in place to cover the disposal of dogs not wanted and also breeding restrictions.

and also rules in place prohibiting live baiting....

h

[Maddy]

bothers me a bit about wanting 100% rehomed. Not every dog, of any breed, is suitable to be rehomed.

This.

I'd elaborate on my support of this but.. I've been saying these things for years and no one listens anyway so..

I remember someone posting on the rescue forum that even the so-called No Kill rescue movement believed that around 10% of dogs would not be rehomeable for valid reasons. But the movement's label remains misleading, given they're actually talking about No Kill of Rehomeable dogs. There was a quote from Nathan Winograd, the guru of 'No Kill', pointing to the great success of a US Shelter that'd achieved a 90% rehoming rate. The guru was thrilled with that.

How that particular percentage (10%) stacks up, would be open to discussion, as would what constitutes 'rehomeable'. But to say all dogs are rehomeable is out of touch with reality.

I would guess that number to be slightly lower in greyhounds because true dog aggression or other serious issues are not common. But.. prey drive is something not necessarily tested for in other breeds and in greyhounds is potentially a very serious issue. For the sake of assessing drive, I found it easier to use three basic categories- high, moderate and low. High drive dogs would chase down and kill small/er dogs. Moderate drive was fine with all other dogs but not with cats or other small animals. Low was fine with one or more types of smaller animal. Moderate and low drive drive are generally safe to rehome, high drive are usually not. Within those broader groups, you have individual differences such as.. greys who were safe with cats but not chooks. Or greys who were safe with small dogs but would chase sheep or other livestock, etc.

In my opinion, for the dog to be a safe companion, it needs to be able to interact with other dogs. It doesn't have to love other dogs, as long as it does not want to chase them down and hurt/kill them. Prey drive with everything else is negotiable (dogs are predators, after all- can't fault a dog for chasing cats or wallabies) but even just excluding the dogs who are not small dog safe will bump your fail rate up well over 10%. From glancing quickly through my own numbers, it'd be at least 25%. Bearing in mind two things there- I take dogs from a limited number of trainers and also, I occasionally look for low drive dogs for people who need them. Larissa would probably have more accurate numbers for a realistic percentage of how many could actually be rehomed.

[gapvic]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

[HazyWal]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

Jan Cameron one would think, she's got more money than the Catholic church and it's all her brilliant idea. What I would like to know is how many foster carers have they got lined up? How are they going to assess all these greys for suitability to homes? You know, basic things like toilet training? If Emma Haswell, Jan Cameron's right hand man it seems, is the head tester for cat/pocket pets god help us all. I'm still gobsmacked over her public claim to be able to make any greyhound cat friendly O.o

[Rebanne]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

Jan Cameron one would think, she's got more money than the Catholic church and it's all her brilliant idea. What I would like to know is how many foster carers have they got lined up? How are they going to assess all these greys for suitability to homes? You know, basic things like toilet training? If Emma Haswell, Jan Cameron's right hand man it seems, is the head tester for cat/pocket pets god help us all. I'm still gobsmacked over her public claim to be able to make any greyhound cat friendly O.o

I thought I read they were going to try and get funding from the Government or the Racing bodies. Jen Cameron was going to donate the land and Animals Australia was going to run it

[Maddy]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

There was discussion on this somewhere on FB and below is a rough list of concerns/questions that will need to be addressed-

1. How will the dog be housed? Tasmania can get really cold, especially down in the southern midlands. Dogs will need access to proper indoor areas in winter.

2. How many dogs will this facility hold? If they plan to take every dog offered, space for at least 200 dogs will be needed, along with exercise/day yards to accommodate that number.

3. Will day/exercise yards be graded/maintained for the safety of the dogs? Many greys are a bit clumsy at the best of times, allowing dogs to gallop in rocky paddocks could be costly at the vet.

4. How will the dogs be monitored when out in day/exercise yards? This applies especially if left out in pairs or groups. Muzzles will not prevent squabbles.

5. Assuming this is going to be a kennel situation, how will dogs actually be prepared for life in a home? This applies to housetraining, socialisation, etc.

6. Are the dogs going to be properly temperament and prey drive assessed by an experienced person? I've heard some very worrying stories about greys coming out of Brightside, lack of testing is going to prove entirely unsustainable very quickly, once untested dogs are being put out to the public in large numbers (and the inevitable problems start to occur).

7. What will happen to dogs that fail prey drive or temperament assessment? Will they be housed indefinitely in a shelter situation? If so, the shelter will need to expand on a regular basis to account for the growing number of dogs.

8. Assuming it will be larger numbers of dogs, how will it be managed to ensure individual welfare requirements are met? This especially applies for failed dogs where minimum standards of welfare are not sufficient to maintain the actual welfare. In such dogs, will there be plans in place to ensure their receive adequate mental/physically/social stimulation?

9. Given Animals Australia and Brightside are animal rights organisations, what will the dogs be eating? Vegan kibble? Regular kibble? Fresh meat? Assuming even a low quality kibble ($1.50 per dog/day), feed bills could easily run into the tens of thousands per year, possibly much higher.

10. Where will funding for their care come from? From my experience, each dog costs at least $500 to rehome and this is without any wages being paid and assuming the dog is rehomed within a few weeks of becoming available. To provide adequate care for each dog, there must be staff available to feed, water, exercise and provide social contact for each dog. Volunteers are great but cannot be relied upon for the daily care of the dogs. Considering costs of staff, food, preventative vet care (wormers, flea treatment, etc). I did some very quick numbers and assuming only two staff (working 8 hour days) and the dogs being fed a very basic food and receiving basic preventative vet care, the yearly running cost would be $222,856. This does not include routine vet work for each dog or things like beds, coats, toys, collars, leads, muzzles, emergency vet expenses or anything else. That number also does not include building or maintaining the kennels, power, water. It'd be difficult to calculate an actual number per year but it would probably be in the millions, if it's done properly.

[labadore]

bothers me a bit about wanting 100% rehomed. Not every dog, of any breed, is suitable to be rehomed.

This.

I'd elaborate on my support of this but.. I've been saying these things for years and no one listens anyway so..

This demonstrates just how out of touch Greyhounds Australasia and I daresay the management of Greyhound Racing is with rehoming of Greyhounds and greyhound welfare. It was also probably said to try and appease a very vocal and angry public and head off any further scathing criticism of the industry in these areas.

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

I remember reading an earlier published article about this proposed sanctuary and requesting state and industry funding for it. I have found the article and link and article in full below:

States, industry bodies pushed to fund greyhound sanctuary

States, industry bodies pushed to fund greyhound sanctuary

The Australian

February 21, 2015 12:00AM

ANIMALS Australia is seeking funding from state governments and greyhound industry bodies to build and staff a rehabilitation facility for the dogs of suspended trainers, following philanthropist Jan Cameron’s donation of a 250ha property.

The animal welfare organisation approached Kathmandu founder Ms Cameron earlier this week, after horrifying footage of greyhounds being live-baited with possums, piglets and rabbits screened on Four Corners, resulting in the suspension of more than 30 industry identities in three states.

Ms Cameron wrote to racing ministers and industry bodies in Queensland, NSW and Victoria yesterday, offering to make her property in Dysart, Tasmania, available to ensure dogs that can no longer race as a result of the scandal can be rehabilitated and rehomed.

The proposal is contingent on government or industry funding, with racing ministers and industry bodies yet to indicate their willingness to commit.

Ms Cameron, a philanthropist who has been involved with animal welfare initiatives for some time, said her offer was conditional on Animals Australia running the facility.

“Like all Australians, I was utterly shocked and appalled at the cruelty exposed this week but my thoughts also immediately went to the dogs who are victims too and who deserve a second chance,” Ms Cameron said.

While Racing Queensland has seized 70 dogs and is monitoring a further 72, hundreds of animals in other states remain in the custody of suspended trainers, many of whom are facing life bans from racing if found guilty of live baiting.

Animals Australia spokeswoman Lisa Chalk said she expected more than 300 dogs would be in need of a home as a result of the scandal.

The Victorian government this week committed $3 million in funding to Greyhound Racing Victoria, while Racing Queensland has pledged $2m for welfare initiatives.

Greyhound Racing NSW, which had its board sacked by NSW Racing Minister Troy Grant in response to the scandal, spent $3.7m on animal welfare and adoption initiatives last year.

Ms Chalk said she was hopeful that some of the millions of dollars being made available to deal with live baiting could go towards the proposed facility.

She said it currently cost $3000 to rehabilitate an ex-racing greyhound to the stage where it was ready to be rehomed.

Currently more than 80 per cent, or 10,000 dogs, exiting the greyhound industry each year are destroyed.

Ms Chalk said she was confident the proposed facility represented a worthy use of taxpayers’ money.

“What Australians are likely to view dimly is the millions of dollars of taxpayer funding that has gone into promoting and supporting the greyhound industry in past years — without ensuring appropriate oversight of their activities,” Ms Chalk said.

“Even if state governments aren’t willing to contribute, the greyhound industry in itself clearly has the capacity to contribute the funds necessary.”

[Maddy]

Other thing is.. as far as I know, Brightside is already at Dysart?

I can't help but think this was a carefully timed move to get the racing industry to cough up the funds for her to build shiny new kennels :/ Note the date.

http://www.themercury.com.au/news/tasmania/brightside-farm-sanctuary-moving-to-bigger-property-at-dysart/story-fnj4f7k1-1227110111944

[WreckitWhippet]

sanctuary = warehouse

[HazyWal]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

There was discussion on this somewhere on FB and below is a rough list of concerns/questions that will need to be addressed-

1. How will the dog be housed? Tasmania can get really cold, especially down in the southern midlands. Dogs will need access to proper indoor areas in winter.

2. How many dogs will this facility hold? If they plan to take every dog offered, space for at least 200 dogs will be needed, along with exercise/day yards to accommodate that number.

3. Will day/exercise yards be graded/maintained for the safety of the dogs? Many greys are a bit clumsy at the best of times, allowing dogs to gallop in rocky paddocks could be costly at the vet.

4. How will the dogs be monitored when out in day/exercise yards? This applies especially if left out in pairs or groups. Muzzles will not prevent squabbles.

5. Assuming this is going to be a kennel situation, how will dogs actually be prepared for life in a home? This applies to housetraining, socialisation, etc.

6. Are the dogs going to be properly temperament and prey drive assessed by an experienced person? I've heard some very worrying stories about greys coming out of Brightside, lack of testing is going to prove entirely unsustainable very quickly, once untested dogs are being put out to the public in large numbers (and the inevitable problems start to occur).

7. What will happen to dogs that fail prey drive or temperament assessment? Will they be housed indefinitely in a shelter situation? If so, the shelter will need to expand on a regular basis to account for the growing number of dogs.

8. Assuming it will be larger numbers of dogs, how will it be managed to ensure individual welfare requirements are met? This especially applies for failed dogs where minimum standards of welfare are not sufficient to maintain the actual welfare. In such dogs, will there be plans in place to ensure their receive adequate mental/physically/social stimulation?

9. Given Animals Australia and Brightside are animal rights organisations, what will the dogs be eating? Vegan kibble? Regular kibble? Fresh meat? Assuming even a low quality kibble ($1.50 per dog/day), feed bills could easily run into the tens of thousands per year, possibly much higher.

10. Where will funding for their care come from? From my experience, each dog costs at least $500 to rehome and this is without any wages being paid and assuming the dog is rehomed within a few weeks of becoming available. To provide adequate care for each dog, there must be staff available to feed, water, exercise and provide social contact for each dog. Volunteers are great but cannot be relied upon for the daily care of the dogs. Considering costs of staff, food, preventative vet care (wormers, flea treatment, etc). I did some very quick numbers and assuming only two staff (working 8 hour days) and the dogs being fed a very basic food and receiving basic preventative vet care, the yearly running cost would be $222,856. This does not include routine vet work for each dog or things like beds, coats, toys, collars, leads, muzzles, emergency vet expenses or anything else. That number also does not include building or maintaining the kennels, power, water. It'd be difficult to calculate an actual number per year but it would probably be in the millions, if it's done properly.

Geez, post that on the AA page or Greyhound Racing Don't Bet On It and see how you go Maddy. You silly girl with your forward thinking and statistics!

Jan Cameron, who has set up her Animal Justice Fund, has pledged 5 million over 5 years...not just for her latest "Greyhound Sanctuary" but for AA to distribute as they feel fit. Now I hope they are prepared, for maybe a third of that to go to this one "project".

Link to the AJF...

https://bawp.org.au/animal-justice-fund/

[Maddy]

sanctuary = warehouse

If dogs that fail are going to be kept there indefinitely, I'd agree.

I'll admit that I've kept two failed dogs (Sally and Idiot Dog) but they became my pets and lived pretty normal lives. For young dogs that come in around 18 months of age, if they live to the average lifespan, they could be spending up to ten years living in a shelter and even with the best systems in place to ensure optimal welfare, I still have my doubts about how humane that is.

[Maddy]

Geez, post that on the AA page or Greyhound Racing Don't Bet On It and see how you go Maddy. You silly girl with your forward thinking and statistics!

Jan Cameron, who has set up her Animal Justice Fund, has pledged 5 million over 5 years...not just for her latest "Greyhound Sanctuary" but for AA to distribute as they feel fit. Now I hope they are prepared, for maybe a third of that to go to this one "project".

Link to the AJF...

https://bawp.org.au/animal-justice-fund/

Oh, I know. I make that mistake often enough, assuming people are actually interested in the welfare of the dogs.

What shits me (well.. one of the many things that shits me) is that as soon as you ask these questions, people assume you must be some industry chump, out to shut it down for nefarious Industry reasons.

A few people I know on FB have been all excited about this and I don't want to be the calculator-toting ants at a picnic but.. it's not what it seems.

[labadore]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

There was discussion on this somewhere on FB and below is a rough list of concerns/questions that will need to be addressed-

1. How will the dog be housed? Tasmania can get really cold, especially down in the southern midlands. Dogs will need access to proper indoor areas in winter.

2. How many dogs will this facility hold? If they plan to take every dog offered, space for at least 200 dogs will be needed, along with exercise/day yards to accommodate that number.

3. Will day/exercise yards be graded/maintained for the safety of the dogs? Many greys are a bit clumsy at the best of times, allowing dogs to gallop in rocky paddocks could be costly at the vet.

4. How will the dogs be monitored when out in day/exercise yards? This applies especially if left out in pairs or groups. Muzzles will not prevent squabbles.

5. Assuming this is going to be a kennel situation, how will dogs actually be prepared for life in a home? This applies to housetraining, socialisation, etc.

6. Are the dogs going to be properly temperament and prey drive assessed by an experienced person? I've heard some very worrying stories about greys coming out of Brightside, lack of testing is going to prove entirely unsustainable very quickly, once untested dogs are being put out to the public in large numbers (and the inevitable problems start to occur).

7. What will happen to dogs that fail prey drive or temperament assessment? Will they be housed indefinitely in a shelter situation? If so, the shelter will need to expand on a regular basis to account for the growing number of dogs.

8. Assuming it will be larger numbers of dogs, how will it be managed to ensure individual welfare requirements are met? This especially applies for failed dogs where minimum standards of welfare are not sufficient to maintain the actual welfare. In such dogs, will there be plans in place to ensure their receive adequate mental/physically/social stimulation?

9. Given Animals Australia and Brightside are animal rights organisations, what will the dogs be eating? Vegan kibble? Regular kibble? Fresh meat? Assuming even a low quality kibble ($1.50 per dog/day), feed bills could easily run into the tens of thousands per year, possibly much higher.

10. Where will funding for their care come from? From my experience, each dog costs at least $500 to rehome and this is without any wages being paid and assuming the dog is rehomed within a few weeks of becoming available. To provide adequate care for each dog, there must be staff available to feed, water, exercise and provide social contact for each dog. Volunteers are great but cannot be relied upon for the daily care of the dogs. Considering costs of staff, food, preventative vet care (wormers, flea treatment, etc). I did some very quick numbers and assuming only two staff (working 8 hour days) and the dogs being fed a very basic food and receiving basic preventative vet care, the yearly running cost would be $222,856. This does not include routine vet work for each dog or things like beds, coats, toys, collars, leads, muzzles, emergency vet expenses or anything else. That number also does not include building or maintaining the kennels, power, water. It'd be difficult to calculate an actual number per year but it would probably be in the millions, if it's done properly.

All valid concerns and will need to be addressed by the animal rights organisations in setting up and running this sanctuary, otherwise they themselves will be coming in for criticism.

[HazyWal]

sanctuary = warehouse

Yep. There is one already running in Sydney that people throw money at left right and centre, lets build more kennels to hoard more dogs! Taking greys from their "miserable existence" in kennels to place them in...kennels...for years...rescue? hmmmmmm.

[gapvic]

With regards to point 10, if they are housing around 200 dogs then to comply with relevant codes of practice they will require more than one staff member per 100 dogs. Don't quote me as this is just off the top of my head, but here in Vic it is something more like one staff member per 30 dogs.

[Maddy]

With regards to point 10, if they are housing around 200 dogs then to comply with relevant codes of practice they will require more than one staff member per 100 dogs. Don't quote me as this is just off the top of my head, but here in Vic it is something more like one staff member per 30 dogs.

Oh, I'd assume you'd need a lot more than two people to adequately care for that number of dogs, I was just being conservative :D

Assuming each dog requires one hour of human interaction per dog (leash walking, grooming, play, health checks, etc), that's 200 man hours a day between two staff- not gunna work. Even assuming just 30 minutes of human interaction, that's still 100 hours per day. And because of the time already involved, that human interaction would probably also have to cover feeding and cleaning (which sort of counts- they see a person, at least).

[HazyWal]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

There was discussion on this somewhere on FB and below is a rough list of concerns/questions that will need to be addressed-

1. How will the dog be housed? Tasmania can get really cold, especially down in the southern midlands. Dogs will need access to proper indoor areas in winter.

2. How many dogs will this facility hold? If they plan to take every dog offered, space for at least 200 dogs will be needed, along with exercise/day yards to accommodate that number.

3. Will day/exercise yards be graded/maintained for the safety of the dogs? Many greys are a bit clumsy at the best of times, allowing dogs to gallop in rocky paddocks could be costly at the vet.

4. How will the dogs be monitored when out in day/exercise yards? This applies especially if left out in pairs or groups. Muzzles will not prevent squabbles.

5. Assuming this is going to be a kennel situation, how will dogs actually be prepared for life in a home? This applies to housetraining, socialisation, etc.

6. Are the dogs going to be properly temperament and prey drive assessed by an experienced person? I've heard some very worrying stories about greys coming out of Brightside, lack of testing is going to prove entirely unsustainable very quickly, once untested dogs are being put out to the public in large numbers (and the inevitable problems start to occur).

7. What will happen to dogs that fail prey drive or temperament assessment? Will they be housed indefinitely in a shelter situation? If so, the shelter will need to expand on a regular basis to account for the growing number of dogs.

8. Assuming it will be larger numbers of dogs, how will it be managed to ensure individual welfare requirements are met? This especially applies for failed dogs where minimum standards of welfare are not sufficient to maintain the actual welfare. In such dogs, will there be plans in place to ensure their receive adequate mental/physically/social stimulation?

9. Given Animals Australia and Brightside are animal rights organisations, what will the dogs be eating? Vegan kibble? Regular kibble? Fresh meat? Assuming even a low quality kibble ($1.50 per dog/day), feed bills could easily run into the tens of thousands per year, possibly much higher.

10. Where will funding for their care come from? From my experience, each dog costs at least $500 to rehome and this is without any wages being paid and assuming the dog is rehomed within a few weeks of becoming available. To provide adequate care for each dog, there must be staff available to feed, water, exercise and provide social contact for each dog. Volunteers are great but cannot be relied upon for the daily care of the dogs. Considering costs of staff, food, preventative vet care (wormers, flea treatment, etc). I did some very quick numbers and assuming only two staff (working 8 hour days) and the dogs being fed a very basic food and receiving basic preventative vet care, the yearly running cost would be $222,856. This does not include routine vet work for each dog or things like beds, coats, toys, collars, leads, muzzles, emergency vet expenses or anything else. That number also does not include building or maintaining the kennels, power, water. It'd be difficult to calculate an actual number per year but it would probably be in the millions, if it's done properly.

All valid concerns and will need to be addressed by the animal rights organisations in setting up and running this sanctuary, otherwise they themselves will be coming in for criticism.

Labadore with respect these are not just concerns they are cold, hard facts. There is no room for "otherwise" when you propose to shut down an industry that has thousands of dogs that all of a sudden need somewhere to go and a good percentage of them are not rehomable.

Edited March 12, 2015 by HazyWal