Four Corners: Greyhound Racing: Live Baiting Revelations

[Maddy]

And well done, too, Animal Liberation Qld. They've got a topic & video on their Facebook page... headed what everyone should know about greyhounds.

The video was produced by Animals Australia & clearly states that greys have become victims, too, by the ugly live baiting training. They say it's shameful to do this to a breed that has the capacity to be a gentle companion dog. The video has scenes of greys being just that.

Best thing is that people who already own greys as pets are posting they're grateful to see this view, getting into the public arena.

Looks like both Animals Australia & Animal Liberation Qld are both doing what I'd hope.

https://www.facebook.com/animalliberationqld

I've seen the video and I still don't think they've got it quite right. Greyhounds playing with kittens is cute and all but that's still not the average greyhound. The average greyhound would chase a cat but happily cuddle up with a small dog or a person. When the public see minorities of the breed in that sort of unbalanced way, they assume it is the average- video of a few greyhounds ripping up possums = all greyhounds are vicious. Video of a few greyhounds cuddling with kittens = all greyhounds love kittens.

An honest, balanced representation of the breed is what is needed.

[Greyt]

Greyt, I can't be bothered with you any further.

Your call 100%

Either you are being deliberately obtuse or you are simply incapable of understanding. Whichever it is, I'm done.

Well, I would say angry about all of the harm been done by the greyhound racing industry.

You have ignored information provided, you keep repeating pointless things (with piles of annoying font formatting) that have nothing to do with the issues in question

The issues in question are the woeful record the Greyhound racing has in the welfare of animals. But you don't do a lot of commenting on that. I am sorry about the poor formatting, it is terrible and driving me nuts too.

and frankly, you've railroaded the thread into your own crazy circus

As opposed to trying to make a thread about animal welfare (specifically, the woeful record the Greyhound racing has in the welfare of animals) into a thread on temp testing (which I agree with).?

If anyone is drawing attention away from the original issue, it's you.

It is great to read a reply of yours that finally offers a legitimate opinion (I disagree with you, but I am allowed to right?) instead of putting words in my mouth and drawing conclusions about my beliefs that I have never stated and I am horrified by.

[anniek]

Resource guarding is not restricted to food

Have you not see dog fights caused by resource guarding at dog parks etc?

What happens if a child tries to take away the dogs toy at a off leash area

Resource guarding can also include guarding of owners so a dog may snap or attack if someone else approaches the owner.

Reasons which I assume it is included in green collar testing.

absolutely -

and resource guarding is not restricted to greyhounds,

so logic tells me that either all dogs of all breeds should be green collar tested - or none

[mita]

Maddy, give that feedback to the 2 groups... as well as anything else you think the general public should know.

I'd like a mention of behavioural assessment with the article on fostering on the Animals Australia website. And why it's done, because there's a range of behaviours across greys, just like across all dogs. They have to be matched to homes, same as any dog. There are greys not suitable for a home with a cat.... same as all sorts of other dogs aren't. Ditto for other things. Or there may be aspects where they need some training. Same as any dog.

These 2 groups are getting a lot of public access on the subject of greys at the moment. So it's an opportunity for some balance against the greyhound as programmed killer. But I agree with you.... there has to be balance within that balance.

Edited February 23, 2015 by mita

[Maddy]

Maddy, give that feedback to the 2 groups... as well as anything else you think the general public should know.

I'd like a mention of behavioural assessment with the article on fostering on the Animals Australia website. And why it's done, because there's a range of behaviours across greys, just like across all dogs. They have to be matched to homes, same as any dog. There are greys not suitable for a home with a cat.... same as all sorts of other dogs aren't. Ditto for other things. Or there may be aspects where they need some training. Same as any dog.

These 2 groups are getting a lot of public access on the subject of greys at the moment. So it's an opportunity for some balance against the greyhound as programmed killer. But I agree with you.... there has to be balance within that balance!

If I honestly thought it wouldn't just result in a pile of abuse from people who didn't know better, I'd make that effort. Unfortunately, experience in these kinds of situations has informed me that trying to educate those who refuse to even entertain the idea that they might have it wrong is not only pointless but sometimes also leads to death threats and crazy people putting your phone number up on FB.

I wish the above was hyperbole but even though this should be a very simple issue of compiling empirical evidence to form a realistic representation of the breed in general, some people get all kinds of crazy over it. Despite the fact that greyhounds are dogs and dogs are predators, they cannot believe a greyhound would willingly kill unless its brain had somehow been damaged by the training process and god forbid you even consider pointing out that some have such high levels of drive that they aren't even safe to rehome.

I've explained again and again that greyhounds are a breed that was developed for prey drive, keenness to chase was a trait selected for over many generations and they simply can't be compared to something like a labrador (or pick your pet breed of dog) or treated in the same way. We have to be respectful of the traits of our chosen breed and honest about them because denying them doesn't make them go away.

Unfortunately, my views are not popular with the AR sorts who believe the dogs are forced to chase and I'd be just banging my head against a brick wall there.

[HazyWal]

Maddy, give that feedback to the 2 groups... as well as anything else you think the general public should know.

I'd like a mention of behavioural assessment with the article on fostering on the Animals Australia website. And why it's done, because there's a range of behaviours across greys, just like across all dogs. They have to be matched to homes, same as any dog. There are greys not suitable for a home with a cat.... same as all sorts of other dogs aren't. Ditto for other things. Or there may be aspects where they need some training. Same as any dog.

These 2 groups are getting a lot of public access on the subject of greys at the moment. So it's an opportunity for some balance against the greyhound as programmed killer. But I agree with you.... there has to be balance within that balance.

But see greyhounds aren't the "same as any dog" they are the fastest dog on the planet and nothing on this earth will out run a determined greyhound, except in Stan's case being a fence and a fractured skull. Add to that most of them have terrible recall.

[Greyt]

Resource guarding is not restricted to food

Have you not see dog fights caused by resource guarding at dog parks etc?

What happens if a child tries to take away the dogs toy at a off leash area

Resource guarding can also include guarding of owners so a dog may snap or attack if someone else approaches the owner.

Reasons which I assume it is included in green collar testing.

Thank you for a reasoned response.

As GAPVIC has explained however, the resource guarding test is around food. I don't think it involves taking a greyhound to a dog park, giving it a toy and then inviting a child to remove the toy.

I haven't seen a greyhound in a fight over a resource (including a human resource) in a dog park although I have seen lots of other breeds fight over toys and balls etc. Far too many in fact.

In Victoria greyhounds with green collars must be on leash at all times. If a child tries to take a toy away from a greyhound in that situation, the handler is not paying enough attention.

Other states don't have the same requirements. I have proposed ITT that the Greyhound Racing Industry should pay for fosters and new owners to be trained in how to best handle Greyhounds. There are a lot of practical things that can be taght to assist the owner and dog to have a great experience in going out in public. My personal opinion is that resource guarding of greyhounds around toys/balls wouldn't be amongst the priorities.

If you have a genuine fear that a Greyhound is likely to attack a child in a public place over a resource, you can rest easy. They are amongst the least likely breeds to do so.

[gapvic]

Resource guarding is not restricted to food

Have you not see dog fights caused by resource guarding at dog parks etc?

What happens if a child tries to take away the dogs toy at a off leash area

Resource guarding can also include guarding of owners so a dog may snap or attack if someone else approaches the owner.

Reasons which I assume it is included in green collar testing.

Thank you for a reasoned response.

As GAPVIC has explained however, the resource guarding test is around food. I don't think it involves taking a greyhound to a dog park, giving it a toy and then inviting a child to remove the toy.

I haven't seen a greyhound in a fight over a resource (including a human resource) in a dog park although I have seen lots of other breeds fight over toys and balls etc. Far too many in fact.

In Victoria greyhounds with green collars must be on leash at all times. If a child tries to take a toy away from a greyhound in that situation, the handler is not paying enough attention.

Other states don't have the same requirements. I have proposed ITT that the Greyhound Racing Industry should pay for fosters and new owners to be trained in how to best handle Greyhounds. There are a lot of practical things that can be taght to assist the owner and dog to have a great experience in going out in public. My personal opinion is that resource guarding of greyhounds around toys/balls wouldn't be amongst the priorities.

If you have a genuine fear that a Greyhound is likely to attack a child in a public place over a resource, you can rest easy. They are amongst the least likely breeds to do so.

No, actually, I didn't explain that. While I only mentioned food in my previous post, the resource guarding component of our assessment encompasses food, toys, bedding etc. Anything that is of high value to the dog. And for us, it's not all about what the dog might do in a public place but also what he might do in a home.

Edited February 23, 2015 by gapvic

[Greyt]

No, actually, I didn't explain that. While I only mentioned food in my previous post, the resource guarding component of our assessment encompasses food, toys, bedding etc. Anything that is of high value to the dog. And for us, it's not all about what the dog might do in a public place but also what he might do in a home.

My bad then - I apologise for taking your words out of context.

Aussielover seems to have a genuine fear that Greyhounds provide a greater risk to children around toys/balls in public places than other breeds of dogs.

I contend that Greys are amongst the least likely of breeds to bite a child.

I understand that you use the green collar program to provide 2 assessments. 1 around re-homing and the other around wearing muzzles in public.

[Maddy]

No, actually, I didn't explain that. While I only mentioned food in my previous post, the resource guarding component of our assessment encompasses food, toys, bedding etc. Anything that is of high value to the dog. And for us, it's not all about what the dog might do in a public place but also what he might do in a home.

My bad then - I apologise for taking your words out of context.

Aussielover seems to have a genuine fear that Greyhounds provide a greater risk to children around toys/balls in public places than other breeds of dogs.

I contend that Greys are amongst the least likely of breeds to bite a child.

I understand that you use the green collar program to provide 2 assessments. 1 around re-homing and the other around wearing muzzles in public.

She said nothing of the sort.

[Rebanne]

I understand that you use the green collar program to provide 2 assessments. 1 around re-homing and the other around wearing muzzles in public.

What are you on?

[mita]

If I honestly thought it wouldn't just result in a pile of abuse from people who didn't know better, I'd make that effort. Unfortunately, experience in these kinds of situations has informed me that trying to educate those who refuse to even entertain the idea that they might have it wrong is not only pointless but sometimes also leads to death threats and crazy people putting your phone number up on FB.

I wish the above was hyperbole but even though this should be a very simple issue of compiling empirical evidence to form a realistic representation of the breed in general, some people get all kinds of crazy over it. Despite the fact that greyhounds are dogs and dogs are predators, they cannot believe a greyhound would willingly kill unless its brain had somehow been damaged by the training process and god forbid you even consider pointing out that some have such high levels of drive that they aren't even safe to rehome.

I've explained again and again that greyhounds are a breed that was developed for prey drive, keenness to chase was a trait selected for over many generations and they simply can't be compared to something like a labrador (or pick your pet breed of dog) or treated in the same way. We have to be respectful of the traits of our chosen breed and honest about them because denying them doesn't make them go away.

Unfortunately, my views are not popular with the AR sorts who believe the dogs are forced to chase and I'd be just banging my head against a brick wall there.

I wonder if that could be inserted into an article that looked into behavioral assessment of greyhounds.

It's reasonable to say greys have marked prey drive and the strength of the drive varies across the breed. Just as the traits of other breeds vary across the breed.

There's a bell-shaped curve for strength of specific trait distribution among humans. Most lumped around the middle...with weaker & much stronger at the two extremities. Think of intelligence as one example.

Same would be true for dogs ... like greys re drive.

I can't see why you should be attacked when you're pointing out that the top extremity exists.

In fact, if a thousand greyhounds were tested on drive & the extent of drive scores plotted along a graph... you'd see a bell-shaped curve forming. Most clustered around the middle...with fewer stronger to very strong up one end, and fewer weaker to very weak ones at the other.

Behaviour testing 'admits' that extreme ends exist across the one group. Which is what you're saying for the top end. And given that an exceptionally strong trait has some genetic base...it's not going to be 'managed out' by training. There's also that bottom end of the bell-shape, where there are those with a exceptionally weaker drive... who'll never be managed into having high drive.

So it's reasonable for you to be saying that some greys are not suitable for the requirements of regular households and standard access to the society. .. because some will have an exceptionally high drive.

You're right, tho... as 'simple' as this is & it's nothing you don't know already ... it's how it's received. I have illusions that drawings of bell-shaped curves might ring a bell. It's a picture!

Edited February 23, 2015 by mita

[Dame Aussie]

No, actually, I didn't explain that. While I only mentioned food in my previous post, the resource guarding component of our assessment encompasses food, toys, bedding etc. Anything that is of high value to the dog. And for us, it's not all about what the dog might do in a public place but also what he might do in a home.

My bad then - I apologise for taking your words out of context.

Aussielover seems to have a genuine fear that Greyhounds provide a greater risk to children around toys/balls in public places than other breeds of dogs.

I contend that Greys are amongst the least likely of breeds to bite a child.

I understand that you use the green collar program to provide 2 assessments. 1 around re-homing and the other around wearing muzzles in public.

She said nothing of the sort.

I was just about to say the same. This is just getting ridiculous

[Maddy]

If I honestly thought it wouldn't just result in a pile of abuse from people who didn't know better, I'd make that effort. Unfortunately, experience in these kinds of situations has informed me that trying to educate those who refuse to even entertain the idea that they might have it wrong is not only pointless but sometimes also leads to death threats and crazy people putting your phone number up on FB.

I wish the above was hyperbole but even though this should be a very simple issue of compiling empirical evidence to form a realistic representation of the breed in general, some people get all kinds of crazy over it. Despite the fact that greyhounds are dogs and dogs are predators, they cannot believe a greyhound would willingly kill unless its brain had somehow been damaged by the training process and god forbid you even consider pointing out that some have such high levels of drive that they aren't even safe to rehome.

I've explained again and again that greyhounds are a breed that was developed for prey drive, keenness to chase was a trait selected for over many generations and they simply can't be compared to something like a labrador (or pick your pet breed of dog) or treated in the same way. We have to be respectful of the traits of our chosen breed and honest about them because denying them doesn't make them go away.

Unfortunately, my views are not popular with the AR sorts who believe the dogs are forced to chase and I'd be just banging my head against a brick wall there.

I wonder if that could be inserted into an article that looked into behavioral assessment of greyhounds.

It's reasonable to say greys have marked prey drive and the strength of the drive varies across the breed. Just as the traits of other breeds vary across the breed.

There's a bell-shaped curve for strength of specific trait distribution among humans. Most lumped around the middle...with weaker & much stronger at the two extremities. Think of intelligence as one example.

Same would be true for dogs ... like greys re drive.

I can't see why you should be attacked when you're pointing out that the top extremity exists.

In fact, if a thousand greyhounds were tested on drive & the extent of drive scores plotted along a graph... you'd see a bell-shaped curve forming. Most clustered around the middle...with fewer stronger to very strong up one end, and fewer weaker to very weak ones at the other.

Behaviour testing 'admits' that extreme ends exist across the one group. Which is what you're saying for the top end. And given that a very strong trait has some genetic base...not going to be 'managed out' by training. There's also that bottom end of the bell-shape, where there are those with a weaker drive... who'll never be managed into having high drive.

So it's reasonable for you to be saying that some greys are not suitable for the requirements of regular households and standard access to the society. .. because some will have an exceptionally high drive.

You're right, tho... as 'simple' as this is & it's nothing you don't know already ... it's how it's received. I have illusions that drawings of bell-shaped curves might help!

Definitely. I've had two girls (from the same trainer) who were safe with pretty much everything, you could throw a squeaky toy and they'd just look at it with that sad confused hound look- there was just no drive there at all. On the other hand, I've had dogs so drivey that we've had to cut tests short and send the test dog home because even once he was removed from their sight, they were completely wound up and very difficult to handle.

Most dogs are somewhere in the middle and even then, you still get oddities like the cat safes who aren't chook safe, the rabbit safes who aren't cat safe and so on. I think more than one or two things might factor into prey drive (and how it is expressed) and that complicates things a bit more when trying to explain prey drive to people who aren't familiar with it.

The trouble is, some people refuse to admit prey drive is even a thing, even though that the basic drive to attain food contributes to many other behaviours we see (a lot of them play behaviours- things like death shaking their squeaky toys or playing tug).

[mita]

[ I think more than one or two things might factor into prey drive (and how it is expressed) and that complicates things a bit more when trying to explain prey drive to people who aren't familiar with it.

I agree.... that's exactly the same for humans, too. One or other factors can affect how prey drive is expressed, even at the strongest levels. I thought of mentioning that, but I knew it would muddy the simple bell-shaped curve explanation with its concrete picture, for those not familiar....& who might have been resistant to anything else but a blank slate idea.

[*kirty*]

Who cares if they have to wear a muzzle?? The dogs don't care one iota.

[mita]

Animal Liberation Qld has just said the positive greyhound video (from Animals Australia) on their website, has clocked up 600.000 hits across Qld. OK, it's not nuanced but its getting a view to the public.

If you have any additional comments that might fill it out, consider posting on that Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/animalliberationqld

[Maddy]

[ I think more than one or two things might factor into prey drive (and how it is expressed) and that complicates things a bit more when trying to explain prey drive to people who aren't familiar with it.

I agree.... that's exactly the same for humans, too. One or other factors can affect how prey drive is expressed, even at the strongest levels. I thought of mentioning that, but I knew it would muddy the simple bell-shaped curve explanation with its concrete picture, for those not familiar....& who might have been resistant to anything else but a blank slate idea.

Yeah, I'm not sure how you'd chart prey drive to account for all the factors, in a way the average person can understand. The amount of people who confuse prey drive for aggression is considerable, which I've always found odd. Many people eat meat but would never consider themselves aggressive towards cows and if anything, want their meat to die the quickest, most humane death possible.

Who cares if they have to wear a muzzle?? The dogs don't care one iota.

And this.

Put some liver treats in the basket of a UK yard muzzle and you can teach them to put their head in the muzzle themselves. Most of mine have loved their muzzles because muzzles mean either walks or trips somewhere.

[Rebanne]

Who cares if they have to wear a muzzle?? The dogs don't care one iota.

And this.

Put some liver treats in the basket of a UK yard muzzle and you can teach them to put their head in the muzzle themselves. Most of mine have loved their muzzles because muzzles mean either walks or trips somewhere.

Totally agree

[Greyt]

Despite the fact that greyhounds are dogs and dogs are predators, they cannot believe a greyhound would willingly kill unless its brain had somehow been damaged by the training process and god forbid you even consider pointing out that some have such high levels of drive that they aren't even safe to rehome.

I've explained again and again that greyhounds are a breed that was developed for prey drive, keenness to chase was a trait selected for over many generations and they simply can't be compared to something like a labrador (or pick your pet breed of dog) or treated in the same way.

I pick,

Afghan

Basenji

Borzoi

Deerhound

Ibizan

Irish Wolfhound

Italian Greyhound

Pharoah Hound

Saluki

Whippett

All fast, all bred to hunt independently, lots have terrible recall.

None are routinely kept in tiny cages for 20 hours per day.

Kirty sums it up well, "As for your other comments, of course their behaviour is due to their upbringing. Everybody knows that. The same is true for all dogs. However no other breed of dog is routinely raised in kennels and runs, not properly trained or socialised, taught to chase and potentially kill small animals - and then turfed out into the community. When raised as a pet as part of a family, they are no different to any other dog. But when raised in the manner described above, care must be taken when rehoming."