dogbesotted Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 All dogs should be assessed as individuals without the connotations or assumptions of breed, past experiences or training. Dogs rescued from fight busts in the US are now often given the chance to be assessed as individuals by behaviour experts for suitability of rehabilitation (if needed) and rehoming. It doesn't matter what they've been trained to do or how many fights they've been in - what matters is their individual behaviour and how it manifests AWAY from the context in which they are used to performing certain behaviours. As an example, I remember Donna from BADRAP explaining that when they attended a shelter to do assessments on a number of dogs rescued from a bust, the shelter staff asked if they could watch and learn. T They set up a barricade between the 15-20 staff and where the dogs would be assessed to attempt to lessen any stress from their presence. Donna & Tim found that each dog they brought out seemed to 'switch on' as soon as they brought them out. Their behaviour changed and they seemed to be becoming stressed and started looking around, as if looking for another dog. They suddenly realised that the barricade and 'audience' sitting watching was extremely similar to the experiences they would have had during matches, and the dogs were anticipating another dog and a fight as soon as they saw it. They took it all away and re tested the dogs without that situational cue and they were very different, many in fact being quite social with the other dogs and many others showing promise with some behavioural guidance. (The majority of these dogs are suitable for rehoming and many are rehomed with other dogs or animals. Some don't even need rehab/training!) Dogs don't generalise well and context is everything. A Greyhound that has killed a small animal on a mechanical lure in a very specific circumstances may not show huge prey drive in other contexts and certainly may not show it to small animals of their own species or human beings. It's not that hard - assess them as individuals just like the dogfighting victims are assessed as individuals. It doesn't matter if they've been 'blooded' or not, just like it doesn't matter how many fights the dogs rescued have been in or whether they've been in fights at all. What matters is their current behaviour in various contexts that they may experience as pet dogs. exactly. h Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Unless you have hard evidence that his dogs never had done it you really can't say they have or haven't been blooded. Not having a go at you or your friend What's 'soft evidence'? You are casting judgment on a man you did not know. This man was well known to our family for years, a public servant, and an animal lover generally. His views on anti-blooding were associated with equally strong views about the strategy of keeping greys hungry as appalling, and not destroying greys because they proved poor runners. Edited February 21, 2015 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) assess them as individuals Which is what I posted earlier as a possible solution. Maybe it comes down to rigorous testing of individual greys . Edited February 21, 2015 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) assess them as individuals Which is what I posted earlier as a possible solution. Maybe it comes down to rigorous testing of individual greys . Greys coming from racing are already being assessed as individuals though. I don't see why anything would need to change based on this expose as far as the rehoming of the dogs are concerned. Edited February 21, 2015 by melzawelza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhok Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Unless you have hard evidence that his dogs never had done it you really can't say they have or haven't been blooded. Not having a go at you or your friend What's 'soft evidence'? You are casting judgment on a man you did not know. This man was well known to our family for years, a public servant, and an animal lover generally. His views on anti-blooding were associated with equally strong views about the strategy of keeping greys hungry as appalling, and not destroying greys because they proved poor runners. Hard evidence would be video tapes of the dogs training without live baiting etc. Do I believe there are people out there that do train their dogs without using live baiting. Absolutely but I won't just flat out believe someone based on just being told that. As I said there were people on the video that were outspoken about the use of live baits saying they didn't do it, didn't know anyone who did and that it was illegal to do so. Yet they did know people and they themselves did have dogs that were live baited. The industry as a whole has been tarnished and it will be hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. --Lhok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) assess them as individuals Which is what I posted earlier as a possible solution. Maybe it comes down to rigorous testing of individual greys . Greys coming from racing are already being assessed as individuals though. I don't see why anything would need to change based on this expose as far as the rehoming of the dogs are concerned. I gave that comment in the context of the known 'blooded greyhounds' being taken into care.... & the question of rehoming as pets. I added 'maybe' because I don't count myself as having any expertise. I'm not suggesting any 'change'. I've said I welcome an Enquiry, now that the issue has blown up, because it would clear the air, with the aid of expertise being presented & released in a public report. And I also said earlier: The breed shouldn't be singled out for things that just generally apply to dogs. Edited February 21, 2015 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I do not consider myself an expert, but I have been working with greyhounds for over 17 years now and have assessed over 6500 dogs. I absolutely believe that there is no correlation whatsoever between predatory behaviour and aggression towards children. Predatory behaviour, or prey drive, is NOT aggression but completely different. We all saw in that dreadful, shocking footage, the child standing at the side of the trial track while a greyhound was given the rabbit to kill. Did the greyhound redirect onto the child? No. We saw the trainers taking the dogs off the arms. Did the greyhounds then redirect onto the trainers? No. Go to a coursing meeting - you'll see young children walking keyed up, excited greyhounds down to the slipper. Would they be allowed to do this if they were at risk of being bitten? No. Greyhounds for years have been allowed to grab onto a dead rabbit on the arm when being trialed. Does it make any difference to the greyhound if the rabbit is alive or not? I'm doubtful. Does that make the greyhound dog a cold blooded killer that will hurt a child? Absolutely not. This old mentality that if a dog has killed something it now has "the taste of blood" and will therefore be a risk to children needs to go. Almost every breed of dog will kill something at some point in his life. Does that mean they are now dangerous and shouldn't be kept as a pet? No. Over the years we have had dogs come to our Program, and pass assessment, that were owned or trained by some of the people named in Victoria. I've no idea what training methods were used on these dogs, and I'm not going to speculate. But they passed our assessment. Greyhounds are a calm, gentle, adaptable dog. The vast majority understand the difference between a lure and a small dog or a child. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Why is there need for an enquiry with regard to rehoming blooded greys? If they pass an appropriate assessment (eg the ones GAP have been doing for years) what relevance does their past history hold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Why is there need for an enquiry with regard to rehoming blooded greys? If they pass an appropriate assessment (eg the ones GAP have been doing for years) what relevance does their past history hold? Of course, the individual assessment protocols are presently in place. I witnessed the GAP ones in action. I've said an independent Enquiry should gather the expertise around all issues relating to racing greyhounds ... & clear the air with a public report. Supporting what's already done that benefits the greys... & making recommendations about whatever doesn't. Given that the expose has stirred up a public storm. Edited February 21, 2015 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Too Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 ..... The dogs are the losers in all this. .... I'd really thought that the possums and piglets were the losers. The sympathy expressed has done a big shift from the original victims to the spin-off victims. Of course the massive possible numbers of greys being affected is horrendous, but there are not "that" many people as concerned about the rabbits, guineas, cockerels and other small animals. What happens to the (?hundreds?) already in cages just awaiting being killed in terror and agony around various "facilities". Bet they won't be thoughtfully disposed of - they will be doubly ill treated as lash-out punishment by the thugs involved - let alone deprived food and water which I doubt is ever involved in their management in any case. Grumpette they are good links you have in your posts. Yes, and I know for a fact that cats have been used as live bait in Victoria. My father was told about it back in 1968 and I have been vocally against the cruelty inherent to ALL animals in the greyhound racing 'industry' for over five decades now. How many hundreds of thousands of animals have suffered in that time? J2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossumCorner Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 .... cheated as much as if they injected their dogs with performance enhancing drugs, .... no different to Lance Armstrong and the cycling drug cheats .... This made me laugh - having just read the secondary link from Gapvic's link. Just as widely known, and very pertinent. http://www.australianracinggreyhound.com/tag/positive-swabs .... They have tarnished an industry that was supposedly attempting to glamorise itself.. Another hoot. How can an industry that is low grade sleaze from top to bottom pretend glamour? Reminds me of that lovely expression in "Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow" when she walks into the luxurious Casino, takes a look around and calls it a "gilded piece of shit". Perfect for an industry that runs on gambling, and all the corruption and evil that underpins it. (No different to horse racing, look at the rotten to the core behaviours that surrounded our two "best ever" race-horses, seventy or so years apart). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) As to glamorising. Way back in the thread I posted a link to Racing Qld's 'Girls on the Track' page. And remarked how the two female greyhound trainers were posed more like modelling ... & holding an empty collar and lead. Not a greyhound to be seen. I just looked again & the two women greyhound trainers are not there any more. To be fair, they may have requested to be taken off. It would not be a good time to be exposed on the Net, with so many strong feelings, in all directions. There's a difference between fair comment and abuse & these women may well cop abuse, just for being there. http://www.racingqueensland.com.au/girls-on-track.aspx Edited February 21, 2015 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazyWal Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I haven't been on line much in the last few days but as soon as I am my newsfeed on FB is flooded with panicked greyhound rescues screaming for foster carers and money. These are the same rescues that have been campaigning for the end of greyhound racing and now dogs are starting to come in they are crapping themselves at the enormity of what they have been demanding. They didn't think that far ahead, they didn't think about where dogs will go if the industry was shut down completely they still have NFI. Gone Are The Dogs posted this morning "what happens to the dogs now?" Should've thought about that earlier hey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Greyhound Racing is caught between two welfare problems. The 'industry' itself has problems for the greys and now shutting down the industry will make thousands of greys disposable. Ironic, given that one of the problems has been so many greys put down because they couldn't meet the needs of competitive, money - driven racing. Whichever way, the greys are the losers. Maybe there needs to be a counter campaign that does nothing else except speak up for greyhounds as a breed and their track record at making excellent companion dogs after assessment for suitability. The same kind of assessment that's applied to any dog before a decision to rehome. That would apply whether the industry continues, shrinks, or stops. I notice both Animals Australia & Animal Liberation Qld have positive information about greys themselves on their websites. I think they should turn that into another campaign, to the public, which promotes them as pets. Just whipping up hysteria won't help the dogs. Edited February 21, 2015 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbesotted Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I haven't been on line much in the last few days but as soon as I am my newsfeed on FB is flooded with panicked greyhound rescues screaming for foster carers and money. These are the same rescues that have been campaigning for the end of greyhound racing and now dogs are starting to come in they are crapping themselves at the enormity of what they have been demanding. They didn't think that far ahead, they didn't think about where dogs will go if the industry was shut down completely they still have NFI. Gone Are The Dogs posted this morning "what happens to the dogs now?" Should've thought about that earlier hey? what just stand by and accept that gross animal cruelty and cheating is part of the greyhound racing industry?????? THe very fact that there are big identities and people of influence caught up in this will be more of a blow to the credibility of greyhound racing than anything else. perhaps the BLAME need to be slated exactly where it belongs on the shoulders of the bastards who for money and, it would seem, pleasure broke not only the regulation of their own organisation but also the laws of the state. with the HUGE numbers of greys being bred this appalling tragedy was just waiting to happen.... and now the greys will be the first to suffer as a result of the fallout. on friday i went to collect feed at a local produce store where the owners were whining about how unfair all the fuss was, it was all labors fault,the owners were just starting to make decent money, blah blah blah.. so big mouth here put in her two cents worth about why the sympathy with people who had knowingly cheated, knowingly broken the law of the state, knowingly disregarded the regulation of their own organisation? now they think i am nuts and i did not even yell. just venting a bit H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbesotted Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 .... cheated as much as if they injected their dogs with performance enhancing drugs, .... no different to Lance Armstrong and the cycling drug cheats .... This made me laugh - having just read the secondary link from Gapvic's link. Just as widely known, and very pertinent. http://www.australianracinggreyhound.com/tag/positive-swabs .... They have tarnished an industry that was supposedly attempting to glamorise itself.. Another hoot. How can an industry that is low grade sleaze from top to bottom pretend glamour? Reminds me of that lovely expression in "Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow" when she walks into the luxurious Casino, takes a look around and calls it a "gilded piece of shit". Perfect for an industry that runs on gambling, and all the corruption and evil that underpins it. (No different to horse racing, look at the rotten to the core behaviours that surrounded our two "best ever" race-horses, seventy or so years apart). my comment re the cheating was not inferring that drugs are not used but saying that the live baiting was also cheating. and yes the industry has worked hard to present a more glamorous image regardless of what we may feel about the industry, just a horse racing is presented as glamorous and exciting h Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazyWal Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I haven't been on line much in the last few days but as soon as I am my newsfeed on FB is flooded with panicked greyhound rescues screaming for foster carers and money. These are the same rescues that have been campaigning for the end of greyhound racing and now dogs are starting to come in they are crapping themselves at the enormity of what they have been demanding. They didn't think that far ahead, they didn't think about where dogs will go if the industry was shut down completely they still have NFI. Gone Are The Dogs posted this morning "what happens to the dogs now?" Should've thought about that earlier hey? what just stand by and accept that gross animal cruelty and cheating is part of the greyhound racing industry?????? THe very fact that there are big identities and people of influence caught up in this will be more of a blow to the credibility of greyhound racing than anything else. perhaps the BLAME need to be slated exactly where it belongs on the shoulders of the bastards who for money and, it would seem, pleasure broke not only the regulation of their own organisation but also the laws of the state. with the HUGE numbers of greys being bred this appalling tragedy was just waiting to happen.... and now the greys will be the first to suffer as a result of the fallout. on friday i went to collect feed at a local produce store where the owners were whining about how unfair all the fuss was, it was all labors fault,the owners were just starting to make decent money, blah blah blah.. so big mouth here put in her two cents worth about why the sympathy with people who had knowingly cheated, knowingly broken the law of the state, knowingly disregarded the regulation of their own organisation? now they think i am nuts and i did not even yell. just venting a bit H Where did I say that the cruelty of the racing industry was acceptable? The fact is there are thousands of racing dogs that would need homes if racing was shut down tomorrow and if I turned up on your doorstep tomorrow with half a dozen homeless hounds would you take them? Maybe you would but the hundreds of thousands of people screaming blue murder behind their keyboards would not. I have grown up in a racing family, my father was a bookmaker I am well aware of what goes on so what do I do? I have two adopted greys myself, have fostered many, have driven many miles doing transports of greys on death row in pounds, have done blanket and food drives for greyhound rescue orgs, organised fundraising events yet ask people that are screaming in capslock what THEY are going to do and its *crickets*. As Maddy posted "outrage is free, helping is not" I gave a guy in a pub on Friday a spray when I overheard a stupid comment and then walked away shaking my head, I'm sure they thought I was nuts as well. As I have always said the over breeding of greyhounds needs to stop that's JMO and yes....I am just venting a bit as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbesotted Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I haven't been on line much in the last few days but as soon as I am my newsfeed on FB is flooded with panicked greyhound rescues screaming for foster carers and money. These are the same rescues that have been campaigning for the end of greyhound racing and now dogs are starting to come in they are crapping themselves at the enormity of what they have been demanding. They didn't think that far ahead, they didn't think about where dogs will go if the industry was shut down completely they still have NFI. Gone Are The Dogs posted this morning "what happens to the dogs now?" Should've thought about that earlier hey? what just stand by and accept that gross animal cruelty and cheating is part of the greyhound racing industry?????? THe very fact that there are big identities and people of influence caught up in this will be more of a blow to the credibility of greyhound racing than anything else. perhaps the BLAME need to be slated exactly where it belongs on the shoulders of the bastards who for money and, it would seem, pleasure broke not only the regulation of their own organisation but also the laws of the state. with the HUGE numbers of greys being bred this appalling tragedy was just waiting to happen.... and now the greys will be the first to suffer as a result of the fallout. on friday i went to collect feed at a local produce store where the owners were whining about how unfair all the fuss was, it was all labors fault,the owners were just starting to make decent money, blah blah blah.. so big mouth here put in her two cents worth about why the sympathy with people who had knowingly cheated, knowingly broken the law of the state, knowingly disregarded the regulation of their own organisation? now they think i am nuts and i did not even yell. just venting a bit H Where did I say that the cruelty of the racing industry was acceptable? The fact is there are thousands of racing dogs that would need homes if racing was shut down tomorrow and if I turned up on your doorstep tomorrow with half a dozen homeless hounds would you take them? Maybe you would but the hundreds of thousands of people screaming blue murder behind their keyboards would not. I have grown up in a racing family, my father was a bookmaker I am well aware of what goes on so what do I do? I have two adopted greys myself, have fostered many, have driven many miles doing transports of greys on death row in pounds, have done blanket and food drives for greyhound rescue orgs, organised fundraising events yet ask people that are screaming in capslock what THEY are going to do and its *crickets*. As Maddy posted "outrage is free, helping is not" I gave a guy in a pub on Friday a spray when I overheard a stupid comment and then walked away shaking my head, I'm sure they thought I was nuts as well. As I have always said the over breeding of greyhounds needs to stop that's JMO and yes....I am just venting a bit as well. I hear what you are saying..i was merely posing a question. The numbers of dogs is the problem that needs desperately to be addressed.. thank the gods that horses only have one foal. Yes outrage is free ... i have been involved with helping out at a local "shelter" where the person not only has greyhounds but also what she refers to as domnestics.. ie non greys hounds. The place is like some sort of dog hell. A friend and I would take it in turns to go outside and sob. and yes we have reported this and yes there has been some action but the person does not see this as anything other than persecution. on another tack read this article in the Australian Financial Review dated 7 april 2014. http://www.afr.com/p/lifestyle/sport/going_to_the_dogs_in_good_way_TyS5YOl2lG2gQb1xwMq8Nespecially here: ” The industry, however, has faced heavy criticism in recent times on animal welfare matters, with the ABC’s 7.30 making allegations late last year about widespread doping, animal cruelty and collusion in greyhound racing in NSW. yet the authorities continued to sweep this under the carpet.. and now we know why.. member of the board were also involved. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greytpets Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I do not consider myself an expert, but I have been working with greyhounds for over 17 years now and have assessed over 6500 dogs. I absolutely believe that there is no correlation whatsoever between predatory behaviour and aggression towards children. Predatory behaviour, or prey drive, is NOT aggression but completely different. We all saw in that dreadful, shocking footage, the child standing at the side of the trial track while a greyhound was given the rabbit to kill. Did the greyhound redirect onto the child? No. We saw the trainers taking the dogs off the arms. Did the greyhounds then redirect onto the trainers? No. Go to a coursing meeting - you'll see young children walking keyed up, excited greyhounds down to the slipper. Would they be allowed to do this if they were at risk of being bitten? No. Greyhounds for years have been allowed to grab onto a dead rabbit on the arm when being trialed. Does it make any difference to the greyhound if the rabbit is alive or not? I'm doubtful. Does that make the greyhound dog a cold blooded killer that will hurt a child? Absolutely not. This old mentality that if a dog has killed something it now has "the taste of blood" and will therefore be a risk to children needs to go. Almost every breed of dog will kill something at some point in his life. Does that mean they are now dangerous and shouldn't be kept as a pet? No. Over the years we have had dogs come to our Program, and pass assessment, that were owned or trained by some of the people named in Victoria. I've no idea what training methods were used on these dogs, and I'm not going to speculate. But they passed our assessment. Greyhounds are a calm, gentle, adaptable dog. The vast majority understand the difference between a lure and a small dog or a child. Well said GAPVic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I haven't been on line much in the last few days but as soon as I am my newsfeed on FB is flooded with panicked greyhound rescues screaming for foster carers and money. These are the same rescues that have been campaigning for the end of greyhound racing and now dogs are starting to come in they are crapping themselves at the enormity of what they have been demanding. They didn't think that far ahead, they didn't think about where dogs will go if the industry was shut down completely they still have NFI. Gone Are The Dogs posted this morning "what happens to the dogs now?" Should've thought about that earlier hey? what just stand by and accept that gross animal cruelty and cheating is part of the greyhound racing industry?????? THe very fact that there are big identities and people of influence caught up in this will be more of a blow to the credibility of greyhound racing than anything else. perhaps the BLAME need to be slated exactly where it belongs on the shoulders of the bastards who for money and, it would seem, pleasure broke not only the regulation of their own organisation but also the laws of the state. with the HUGE numbers of greys being bred this appalling tragedy was just waiting to happen.... and now the greys will be the first to suffer as a result of the fallout. on friday i went to collect feed at a local produce store where the owners were whining about how unfair all the fuss was, it was all labors fault,the owners were just starting to make decent money, blah blah blah.. so big mouth here put in her two cents worth about why the sympathy with people who had knowingly cheated, knowingly broken the law of the state, knowingly disregarded the regulation of their own organisation? now they think i am nuts and i did not even yell. just venting a bit H Where did I say that the cruelty of the racing industry was acceptable? The fact is there are thousands of racing dogs that would need homes if racing was shut down tomorrow and if I turned up on your doorstep tomorrow with half a dozen homeless hounds would you take them? Maybe you would but the hundreds of thousands of people screaming blue murder behind their keyboards would not. I have grown up in a racing family, my father was a bookmaker I am well aware of what goes on so what do I do? I have two adopted greys myself, have fostered many, have driven many miles doing transports of greys on death row in pounds, have done blanket and food drives for greyhound rescue orgs, organised fundraising events yet ask people that are screaming in capslock what THEY are going to do and its *crickets*. As Maddy posted "outrage is free, helping is not" I gave a guy in a pub on Friday a spray when I overheard a stupid comment and then walked away shaking my head, I'm sure they thought I was nuts as well. As I have always said the over breeding of greyhounds needs to stop that's JMO and yes....I am just venting a bit as well. I hear what you are saying..i was merely posing a question. The numbers of dogs is the problem that needs desperately to be addressed.. thank the gods that horses only have one foal. Yes outrage is free ... i have been involved with helping out at a local "shelter" where the person not only has greyhounds but also what she refers to as domnestics.. ie non greys hounds. The place is like some sort of dog hell. A friend and I would take it in turns to go outside and sob. and yes we have reported this and yes there has been some action but the person does not see this as anything other than persecution. on another tack read this article in the Australian Financial Review dated 7 april 2014. http://www.afr.com/p/lifestyle/sport/going_to_the_dogs_in_good_way_TyS5YOl2lG2gQb1xwMq8Nespecially here: ” The industry, however, has faced heavy criticism in recent times on animal welfare matters, with the ABC’s 7.30 making allegations late last year about widespread doping, animal cruelty and collusion in greyhound racing in NSW. yet the authorities continued to sweep this under the carpet.. and now we know why.. member of the board were also involved. H The industry probably does need to go (I can't see any reasonable way to ensure compliance on certain welfare issues) but the only way to do it- without landfill in Australia suddenly filling up with dead greyhounds- is for the sport to be slowly phased out. Ban any breeding, accept no new dog registrations after X date and allow the sport to die out by natural attrition, which could take a few years. The trouble is, a lot of people want some sort of immediate resolution and with tens of thousands of dogs to consider, that just isn't possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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