Four Corners: Greyhound Racing: Live Baiting Revelations

[WreckitWhippet]

The purpose of the greyhounds is to run as they enjoy. The problem is that the context is not just a hobby, as with other dog sports. It's associated with a commercial, gambling industry where to be viable, money takes first place. And that means each greyhound in the industry is not just a dog doing what it enjoys, it's an economic unit, about which calculations have to be made. How to balance that with modern expectations about dogs' welfare is the challenge. And, then, how to monitor & police given that they're kept on private property.

I wonder how much parallel can be drawn with the purebred breeding world. Interestingly, some US research showed that the 'best raised' dogs for social purposes and, hence, long-term welfare ... came from registered breeders who regard what they do as a personal, loved hobby, not a business. These breeders are usually living up to the Ethical Guidelines set by Kennel Clubs. Of course, they still have to make economic considerations about their dogs. They'd be foolish & irresponsible not to. But priority can still go on the dogs & their breed.

If only greyhound racing could be re-visioned as a hobby dog sport in a similar mould & with appropriate Ethical Guidelines. With expectations they're to be followed, & monitored, as far as humanly possible.

Couldn't registration prices be increased so that the extra income can go to an independent body to employ people to police greyhound facilities. The TAB/bookies could give a percentage of income from dog racing to that independent body as they are the big winners from gambling. Change laws so that if you have purchased a greyhound you wish to race it must be from and go through registered greyhound facilities. If you have registered your property as a greyhound facility you must allow unannounced inspections. Since they can record all breeding dog's DNA, they can record and check if all dogs that are racing have been through registered facilities. Increased prices will help prevent breeding on a whim.

I'm guessing we all know that not all show breeders are ethical, look at Crufts this year. I know of a family that put their kids second to the dogs and they suffered for it, plus the dog's life wasn't what I would say was ideal. I've heard whispers about some dog sport competitors just as I had heard whispers about live baiting. I've seen many many dogs not enjoying their experience in the show ring, trial ring or participating in a training session you can see they would rather be anywhere else.

I'm guessing not on the same scale as money but self esteem can be a powerful motivator to win at all costs too, .

You must already allow inspections. At any given time a GRNSW official can walk onto my property, demand to see the papers of any Grey present, they can also ask where any Greyhounds are that are listed as being in my care.

All owner/trainers and public trainers have their kennels inspected. The down fall is that since my initial inspection I have not seen them since.

GRNSW has now introduced a "breeders licence" , I will see the extent to which this might positively impact on litters and their care when I renew my licence next month.

[moosmum]

The money involved does make a difference, but I think what makes more of a difference is that its an industry seperated by breed.

The grey breeders have unique situation in that their main support has always been from an insular industy, seen as seperate from other purposes people keep dogs. With their own specialist facilities, vets, legislation and trainiers change is going to be slower simply because greys are seen as an exception from most other dogs and this is reinforced by a breeders support networks.

Again, The community does not make exceptions based on breed in what it considers exceptable practices in keeping, breeding or caring for domestic dogs.

If good basic practices are seen as universal to all breeds or crosses of dogs, a hobby style of keeping smaller numbers for the pleasure of dogs and human ( a love of dogs) becomes the priority.

Taking care to breed for considered reason because they recognise there are limmitted homes available.

Becoming more critical in their choices and less likely to take chances.

Concentrating on making the most of an individual dog rather just plowing thru the work load.

Becoming more aware of their responsibilities to the community and the dogs.

Expectations placed on dog owners and breeders are not divided by breed or lack of.Insisting that there IS a division and refusing to work together, or insisting your interest in dogs is somehow exceptional,can only marginalize one group after another.

[mita]

Went looking for any statement of Ethical Guidelines for those involved in greyhound racing...like the Kennel Clubs have for p/b dog breeding. Couldn't find any but they have an Animal Care & Ethics Committee. I'd expect such a committee should have Ethical Guidelines as a core document.

I stumbled on a paper from Southern Cross University on greyhounds in racing, from an Animal Law perspective. Lot of points already made in this thread, but worth a read. I was gobsmacked by the money involved ... $1.035 billion wagered on greyhounds in NSW during 2012-13 financial year. Also seems Australia is the 3rd largest producers of racing greyhounds in the world. Behind the US and Ireland. Given our small population by comparison with the US, we're not all that far behind them...big implications for the 'wastage' & rehoming issues.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aCLLdlL1yIsJ:http://scu.edu.au/law-justice/download.php?doc_id%3D15433%26site_id%3D63%26file_ext%3D.pdf%2BNSW+Greyhound+Racing+Animal+Care+%26+Ethics+Committee&hl=en-AU&gbv=2&&ct=clnk

Edited March 15, 2015 by mita

[moosmum]

I wonder how much parallel can be drawn with the purebred breeding world. Interestingly, some US research showed that the 'best raised' dogs for social purposes and, hence, long-term welfare ... came from registered breeders who regard what they do as a personal, loved hobby, not a business. These breeders are usually living up to the Ethical Guidelines s

Different parts of the same problem.

If you rule out environmental influence you loose purpose and value, eventualy becoming redundant.

One way Greyhound racing authorities could have catered to the environment would be events held for novices to race un- registered dogs in conjunction with events( after training and testing for suitability and safety )

This would create interest in the sport and possible graduation to a professional involment in it,

Increase attendence to race events( and profitability of holding them)

and allow the public to influence the sport towards more acceptable practices. The sport influences the publics perceptions of it, and while the public gains tangible, personal value from it, they will support it.

As for most successful outcomes being from breeders who regard what they do as a personal, loved hobby..... Yes, Thats what gave rise to specialist purpose for domestic dogs, and later pedigrees. Its not the other way around. The word pedigree in that statement is redundant. Its practice that make the difference.

Its practice that created specialist breeds and pedigrees.

The pedigree system did not give rise to good practice, but only came about because they exsisted. To say good practice is contingent on pedigree denies any other purpose than pedigree, and suppresses those good practices outside of the pedigree system ( and within,since practice becomes inccidental to the pedigree )

If this is not an example of the physics of biology at work I don't know what is. But it IS gaining momentum and I still haven't had any valid arguments showing where I'm wrong.

If these are the results of a closed system in dog breeding,and breeders themselves are unable to see and understand how they are affected by biological laws, How they affect their environment, then there is little hope for the rest of humanity who have been making the same mistakes repeatedly in all aspects of civilization.

Edited March 19, 2015 by moosmum

[OSoSwift]

The purpose of the greyhounds is to run as they enjoy. The problem is that the context is not just a hobby, as with other dog sports. It's associated with a commercial, gambling industry where to be viable, money takes first place. And that means each greyhound in the industry is not just a dog doing what it enjoys, it's an economic unit, about which calculations have to be made. How to balance that with modern expectations about dogs' welfare is the challenge. And, then, how to monitor & police given that they're kept on private property.

I wonder how much parallel can be drawn with the purebred breeding world. Interestingly, some US research showed that the 'best raised' dogs for social purposes and, hence, long-term welfare ... came from registered breeders who regard what they do as a personal, loved hobby, not a business. These breeders are usually living up to the Ethical Guidelines set by Kennel Clubs. Of course, they still have to make economic considerations about their dogs. They'd be foolish & irresponsible not to. But priority can still go on the dogs & their breed.

If only greyhound racing could be re-visioned as a hobby dog sport in a similar mould & with appropriate Ethical Guidelines. With expectations they're to be followed, & monitored, as far as humanly possible.

Couldn't registration prices be increased so that the extra income can go to an independent body to employ people to police greyhound facilities. The TAB/bookies could give a percentage of income from dog racing to that independent body as they are the big winners from gambling. Change laws so that if you have purchased a greyhound you wish to race it must be from and go through registered greyhound facilities. If you have registered your property as a greyhound facility you must allow unannounced inspections. Since they can record all breeding dog's DNA, they can record and check if all dogs that are racing have been through registered facilities. Increased prices will help prevent breeding on a whim.

I'm guessing we all know that not all show breeders are ethical, look at Crufts this year. I know of a family that put their kids second to the dogs and they suffered for it, plus the dog's life wasn't what I would say was ideal. I've heard whispers about some dog sport competitors just as I had heard whispers about live baiting. I've seen many many dogs not enjoying their experience in the show ring, trial ring or participating in a training session you can see they would rather be anywhere else.

I'm guessing not on the same scale as money but self esteem can be a powerful motivator to win at all costs too, .

You must already allow inspections. At any given time a GRNSW official can walk onto my property, demand to see the papers of any Grey present, they can also ask where any Greyhounds are that are listed as being in my care.

All owner/trainers and public trainers have their kennels inspected. The down fall is that since my initial inspection I have not seen them since.

GRNSW has now introduced a "breeders licence" , I will see the extent to which this might positively impact on litters and their care when I renew my licence next month.

I have also had to sign paperwork for Greys I have boarded stating the dates they are in my care etc I agree to my facility being inspected by them if deemd necessary. HAsn't happened yet :)

[dogbesotted]

local paper article:http://www.qt.com.au/news/forget-the-emotion-heres-the-real-facts/2612999/#c1101952

OPINION: Forget the emotion, here's the real greyhound facts

PeterChapman1234

IF MY editorial supporting a $12 million greyhound racing centre of excellence for Ipswich was designed to draw reader feedback it certainly worked.

Unfortunately it seems that those in support of the proposal prefer to remain silent, while Cr Andrew Antoniolli's vocal supporters are prepared to raise the roof condemning the entire greyhound industry.

For the record, let me cut through the false accusations of Antoniolli's public relations team and repeat exactly what my comment was.

I said any councillor who stood in the way of a $12 million development for this city was acting against the best interests of this community.

My major gripe with Cr Antoniolli is the timing of his outburst.

With Logan Council withdrawing its support for the centre after fighting for it for nine years, the timing couldn't be worse for him to raise his official voice and speak negatively about the greyhound industry.

If he did a little research into the Ipswich Greyhound Club he would know that for the past 30 years they have raced on a patched-up outdated circuit that needs to be mothballed.

Three years ago there was talk of building a track for them inside the Bundamba racecourse; this was canned when Labor lost the election.

Now that the door is ajar we should be pushing hard to open it, not speaking negatively about the entire industry.

Let me explain a little about what the centre would mean to Ipswich.

Firstly it would create 350 full-time equivalent positions during construction, then once completed it would provide jobs for 12 full-time staff and an estimated 30 regular part-time opportunities.

Most importantly we would not just be getting one of the best greyhound racing facilities in Australia, we would also be getting a much needed modern convention style auditorium that could be used for numerous functions.

Having dropped into the greyhounds on some Saturday nights, I have noticed just how many functions have been relegated to the old sheds at the showgrounds.

and the comments:

scargo - Ipswich 9 hours ago2 replies

There are for and against in every proposal.

My question is would you take a under aged child to any gambling/ animal racing event?

I did not and I certianatly would not take the grand kids.

Ipswich needs more affordable attractions that the whole family can enjoy, that does not envolve any of the following, animals, gambling, fights, booze.

People are talking about domestic voilence, gambling and voilence in general in the community. Isn't time we removed the triggers and replaced it with family friendly events and places?

That is why I do not want to see Ipswich have a dog track.

Reply

jillHalls - Flinders View 7 hours ago

my grandbabies love the dogs, they pick a colour and cheer all the way, they are 4 and 3year old. As for violence I have never seen any at the dogs. Most people are middle aged or families. Gambling is everywhere, all you have to do is pick up your phone, at least a Ipswich there is only a TAB. My children also loved the dogs 25 years ago they and the other children would run along the front trying to race the dogs home to the finish line. It was great Saturday night that was fun for the family. My son is now a responsible gambler(only a few dollars here and there) my daughter do's not gamble, and I have a few bets now and then. Exposing children to life helps in the long run. I hope Ipswich gets the new dog track!!!!!

Reply

GuclDREhj2JPSYeyDaveS - Australia 4 hours ago

jillHalls - Flinders View 7 hours ago

my grandbabies love the dogs, they pick a colour and cheer all the way, they are 4 and 3year old. As for violence I have never seen any at the dogs. Most people are middle aged or families. Gambling is everywhere, all you have to do is pick up your phone, at least a Ipswich there is only a TAB. My children also loved the dogs 25 years ago they and the other children would run along the front trying to race the dogs home to the finish line. It was great Saturday night that was fun for the family. My son is now a responsible gambler(only a few dollars here and there) my daughter do's not gamble, and I have a few bets now and then. Exposing children to life helps in the long run. I hope Ipswich gets the new dog track!!!!!

... you neglected to mention the more than 10,000 perfectly greyhounds killed each year. Would you take your 3 and 4 year olds to witness the dozens killed each year. And for no reason whatsoever. They aren't a food source, their only crime wasn't been fast enough and so not only do they die but they are completely wasted, nothing but landfill. Sometimes you can't just reduce life to 'picking your favourite colour'.

Reply

helen.brennan.5203 - Australia 6 hours ago

forget the emotion???? the greyhound industry has been rife with rumours of these appalling activities for years.. and it has been ignored. If those charged had been little wanna be successes I could support your comments however BIG trainers have been involved not just in this region but australia wide.. i hold the industry responsible.. and the saying YOU BET:THEY DIE remains true. The industry is also responsible for the killing ( not always by lawful methods) of thousands of otherwise healthy dogs because they are not fast enough or are extraneous to needs.. it is abhorrent and for too long has been tolerated becusse of the gambling lobby... time for a change

Reply

Dezzey - Corrigin 5 hours ago

What is the obsession with building a dog track ? Why not just build a $12 million pokie den instead ?

Reply

jimdodrill - Collingwood Park 4 hours ago1 reply

Here are some real facts Peter:

Greyhound racing begins as a gamble and for most dogs ends in tragedy. Every year in Australia, around 20,000 greyhound pups are bred in the hope of finding a quick runner. But not every dog is suited to racing. And like a lottery ticket that has failed to pay out, most dogs who don't make the grade are discarded.

An estimated 18,000 healthy dogs are killed in the greyhound industry each year — 8,000 pups and young dogs never even make it to the track, and another 10,000 dogs who are 'retired' from racing — simply because they are too slow to win.

Live baiting is the illegal practice of using live animals for the purpose of training greyhounds. Investigations by Animals Australia have revealed that live baiting is a routine and accepted training method used by many Australian greyhound trainers.

Investigators documented piglets, possums and rabbits being tied to lures and trainers releasing dogs to chase the lure then allowing dogs to catch and maul these defenceless animals. Trainers were also documented tying live animals to leads/leashes to taunt and stimulate greyhounds into aggressive behaviour before allowing them to maul the helpless animals.

Doping of dogs and criminal behaviour have also been uncovered in the industry.

Is this what you are promoting for Ipswich?

Reply

jillHalls - Flinders View 3 hours ago

I don't know where you get your figures. For 2014 just over 14,000 dog were born in Australia and New Zealand. Go to Q raceing and get your figures right before you start making silly second hand info, out to the public.

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GuclDREhj2JPSYeyDaveS - Australia 4 hours ago

But you could build a community rec center for that money. There are lots of things you could spend that money on. While I get you have to fight specifically for Ipswich, most of us are concerned about the industry as a whole. Its a dying industry, with interest waning. Have a look at the crowds, compare them to the 90's or 80's. Its nowhere near that level and going backwards. If you plunge $12 million in now, you'll end up with a white elephant in 10 years time.

This, combined with the fact that the RSPCA estimate 12,000 greyhounds are disposed of each year (other organisations put the figure at a higher level), you have to allow a sense of morality to come into the debate. It isn't all about the $$$'s. Sometimes you have to weigh up 'Sure we'll make a little money out of this, but on the downside, we are helping to ensure that greyhounds in their thousands, who are perfectly healthy are put down simply because they didn't make the grade.'

If bull fighting seemed a lucrative industry, would you be championing that to be made legal? I think not. You can not just ignore the HUGE animal welfare issues yet to be addressed by the greyhound racing industry.

Reply

browneyedgirl173 - Ipswich 4 hours ago

Ok a few people in the greyhound industry are guilty of cruelty to dogs. That does not mean everyone in the industry is doing they same. That just like saying all Muslims are terrorists which is certainly not true. A new track would be awesome for our city by bringing more people here and spending money to make our economy grow. And as for it not being suitable for children, omg... As a child I loved going to the races with my parents. Horses or dogs (we raced horses ourselves) a child doesn't think about gambling unless the parents teach them. When I went I was just so excited to see the doggies and horseys run and maybe get to pat one. So before you judge a whole population on something you think is happening everywhere maybe you should do some of your own research and not believe everything you read on facebook or the internet think before you speak/ type. Because anyone can make a website and say this is the truth, when its not.

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DILLIGAFF - Bundamba 4 hours ago

"Unfortunately it seems that those in support of the proposal prefer to remain silent".

Or perhaps bugger all people support it, in light of the damning evidence that has come to light all over the nation.

"With Logan Council withdrawing its support for the centre after fighting for it for nine years, the timing couldn't be worse for him to raise his official voice and speak negatively about the greyhound industry".

Actually the timing is spot on, it is way past time this so called sport was hauled into the spotlight and shown up for what it really is. People have a right to know the real cost of their "entertainment".

"then once completed it would provide jobs for 12 full-time staff and an estimated 30 regular part-time opportunities".

Ask those workers if they still want that job on the back of proven cruelty.

What surprises me Peter is that you still refuse to see this for what it is and has been proven to be, the long term cruelty of dogs and other wildlife used in training, not by one or two trainers, but a systemic effort from within the the whole industry.

Reply

Edited April 21, 2015 by dogbesotted

[westiemum]

Thanks DBS - very interesting reading.

I can't believe that people are actually advocating pumping 12 million of public money into a greyhound track when the industry is under such a cloud and so many questions remain unresolved. What planet are these people on? There are far better more sustainable economy building activities that 12 million would buy which would benefit Ipswich than a dog track.

[moosmum]

Bottom line, its an industry exclusive to greyhounds.

It simply doesn't doesn't hold enough relevence or purpose to the general population for them to support it.

The purpose for the dogs will go, eventualy.

Unless practices can be lifted by the communities expectations.

Oh, I forgot.

Good practices depend on what group you belong to, so there won't be agreement on whats expected.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

It simply doesn't doesn't hold enough relevence or purpose to the general population for them to support it.

really? Neither does dog fighting or cock fighting. Or pig shooting.

But you don't need the general population to support it for it to exist. I think it's better to have it legal with animal welfare requirements than force it underground.

[moosmum]

It simply doesn't doesn't hold enough relevence or purpose to the general population for them to support it.

really? Neither does dog fighting or cock fighting. Or pig shooting.

But you don't need the general population to support it for it to exist. I think it's better to have it legal with animal welfare requirements than force it underground.

Oh, I agree. I don't want to see the end of Greys, or racing.

Poor practice will never be stopped while there are cruel idiots in the world.

We will never stop all crime just by making it illegal. And marginalization of any group makes it harder to tackle or uncover.

But separating groups according to practice marginalizes every one before you begin, making it easier to attack their purpose. Due to their practices?

I just think its about time people woke up to this and start disscussing practices in terms of basic expectations common to domestic dogs. The problems are rarely caused by the purpose. So why elliminate purpose when its practices that need to be tackled?

And no "group" is exempt from common expectation.But they will delay the inevitable by allowing or even encouraging those they feel are are worse offenders to be targeted now.

Distance themselves from that sinking ship, in WIW words. The problem with that is, it shrinks the whole environment. Fewer left when its your own "group" none can relate to because you have watched them sink one by one. Till there are none left to care.

It won't matter how good your practices are to you. Its down to how many of the general population get recognizable value in continuing support.

We don't need A.R. WE allow this.

We errode purpose, and wonder when the value people hold for dogs is also erroding.

Edited April 23, 2015 by moosmum

[mita]

It was lovely seeing a rescued greyhound win, this afternoon. Not at racing, tho'. We were at a doggie event run by the local Qld Police & Neighbourhood Watch, at which lucky tickets for a prize were given out.

Big crowd of people & their dogs there. We spotted a gorgeous greyhound wearing a green GAP collar. Spoke to the owner to congratulate her on this lovely girl. At the end of the afternoon, when the lucky tickets were drawn, we clapped like mad when the lady with the greyhound won. We heard such supportive comments from people standing near us, who also thought it was fantastic.

Edited April 26, 2015 by mita

[Kirislin]

Tooradin's up for sale. http://www.realestate.com.au/property-residential+land-vic-tooradin-201183859

[PossumCorner]

Interesting Kirislin, and under $1million. Hope it doesn't go to developers for subdivision. Would be great if it stays as a larger market garden, and the asparagus growers don't lose their lease.

[Little Gifts]

Some big changes here in QLD today after the response to the final report into the industry was made in state parliament today.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-02/greyhound-live-baiting-queensland-racing-boards-abolished/6514112

[Kirislin]

Interesting Kirislin, and under $1million. Hope it doesn't go to developers for subdivision. Would be great if it stays as a larger market garden, and the asparagus growers don't lose their lease.

I wish I could form a syndicate and buy it and keep it as a round track, straight track and lure coursing complex for all breeds, not just greyhounds. Wouldn't that be fun.

[HazyWal]

Tooradin's up for sale. http://www.realestate.com.au/property-residential+land-vic-tooradin-201183859

There's this one in Tooradin as well. There was another greyhound facility for sale at Tooradin a few months ago that was beautiful but I can't find it again now, maybe sold or withdrawn. Seems a mass exodus of greyhound trainers from Tooradin.

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-lifestyle-vic-tooradin-7740023

[Little Gifts]

Front page news in our local paper yesterday that the new Logan track is no longer going ahead. I do feel bad that all the crappy breeders, trainers and owners have ruined it for those who do care about their dogs.

[Scottsmum]

Update: Three greyhound trainers sentenced for animal cruelty

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-16/three-greyhound-trainers-sentenced-for-animal-cruelty/7033436

[juice]

Good, nasty b##tards!!!! i would have given them longer and huge fines. scumbags.

Edited December 18, 2015 by juice

[Kirislin]

Interesting Kirislin, and under $1million. Hope it doesn't go to developers for subdivision. Would be great if it stays as a larger market garden, and the asparagus growers don't lose their lease.

I wish I could form a syndicate and buy it and keep it as a round track, straight track and lure coursing complex for all breeds, not just greyhounds. Wouldn't that be fun.

still hasn't sold and the price has been dropped. I very much doubt it would meet GRVs current requirements as a greyhound training facility. I still wish I had the dough to turn it into a canine racing and lure coursing park. I'd need to be independently wealthy though because I doubt it would pay for itself.