Four Corners: Greyhound Racing: Live Baiting Revelations

[labadore]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

There was discussion on this somewhere on FB and below is a rough list of concerns/questions that will need to be addressed-

1. How will the dog be housed? Tasmania can get really cold, especially down in the southern midlands. Dogs will need access to proper indoor areas in winter.

2. How many dogs will this facility hold? If they plan to take every dog offered, space for at least 200 dogs will be needed, along with exercise/day yards to accommodate that number.

3. Will day/exercise yards be graded/maintained for the safety of the dogs? Many greys are a bit clumsy at the best of times, allowing dogs to gallop in rocky paddocks could be costly at the vet.

4. How will the dogs be monitored when out in day/exercise yards? This applies especially if left out in pairs or groups. Muzzles will not prevent squabbles.

5. Assuming this is going to be a kennel situation, how will dogs actually be prepared for life in a home? This applies to housetraining, socialisation, etc.

6. Are the dogs going to be properly temperament and prey drive assessed by an experienced person? I've heard some very worrying stories about greys coming out of Brightside, lack of testing is going to prove entirely unsustainable very quickly, once untested dogs are being put out to the public in large numbers (and the inevitable problems start to occur).

7. What will happen to dogs that fail prey drive or temperament assessment? Will they be housed indefinitely in a shelter situation? If so, the shelter will need to expand on a regular basis to account for the growing number of dogs.

8. Assuming it will be larger numbers of dogs, how will it be managed to ensure individual welfare requirements are met? This especially applies for failed dogs where minimum standards of welfare are not sufficient to maintain the actual welfare. In such dogs, will there be plans in place to ensure their receive adequate mental/physically/social stimulation?

9. Given Animals Australia and Brightside are animal rights organisations, what will the dogs be eating? Vegan kibble? Regular kibble? Fresh meat? Assuming even a low quality kibble ($1.50 per dog/day), feed bills could easily run into the tens of thousands per year, possibly much higher.

10. Where will funding for their care come from? From my experience, each dog costs at least $500 to rehome and this is without any wages being paid and assuming the dog is rehomed within a few weeks of becoming available. To provide adequate care for each dog, there must be staff available to feed, water, exercise and provide social contact for each dog. Volunteers are great but cannot be relied upon for the daily care of the dogs. Considering costs of staff, food, preventative vet care (wormers, flea treatment, etc). I did some very quick numbers and assuming only two staff (working 8 hour days) and the dogs being fed a very basic food and receiving basic preventative vet care, the yearly running cost would be $222,856. This does not include routine vet work for each dog or things like beds, coats, toys, collars, leads, muzzles, emergency vet expenses or anything else. That number also does not include building or maintaining the kennels, power, water. It'd be difficult to calculate an actual number per year but it would probably be in the millions, if it's done properly.

All valid concerns and will need to be addressed by the animal rights organisations in setting up and running this sanctuary, otherwise they themselves will be coming in for criticism.

Labadore with respect these are not just concerns they are cold, hard facts. There is no room for "otherwise" when you propose to shut down an industry that has thousands of dogs that all of a sudden need somewhere to go and a good percentage of them are not rehomable.

Please don't miscontrue my post just because we are on opposing sides of this debate .

With regard to proposing to shutdown the industry, nowhere have I proposed that it be shutdown immediately. In fact, in some of my earlier posts, I have metioned that it should be shutdown over a period of time in a "phased-in" approach to avoid the issue of thousands of dogs being dumped at once by their so called "caring owners". Most rational thinking people who oppose the greyhound racing industry and want it shutdown, want it shutdown in a phased-in approach.

I find it interesting that pro greyhound racing people like to insinuate that if the industry did shutdown, it would be immediately and this is obviously a "scaremongering" tactic aimed at anti greyhound racing people like myself, rather than applying commonsense and logic to their argument.

Obviously pro greyhound racing people have a vested interest in this industry continuing, so I suppose it makes sense they use the arguments and scaremongering that they do to try and ensure its survival. Tis a shame that the killing and suffering of thousands of poor greyhounds in this industry will continue and don't rate a mention from the proponents of this awful industry.

[WreckitWhippet]

dogs suffer in the industry, dogs suffer warehoused in kennels in the name of "rescue" , neither is right, neither is acceptable... unless of course it's in the name of "saving" them and then it's don't ask questions

[Rebanne]

Labadore, even if greyhound racing was phased out, there will be massive dumping of dogs. People won't wait until it's their turn. As soon as any restrictions are imposed people will be out and so too their dogs So if racing ends, quickly or slowly, there had better be very good plans put in place to help the dogs. Very,very good plans.

[Maddy]

Please don't miscontrue my post just because we are on opposing sides of this debate .

With regard to proposing to shutdown the industry, nowhere have I proposed that it be shutdown immediately. In fact, in some of my earlier posts, I have metioned that it should be shutdown over a period of time in a "phased-in" approach to avoid the issue of thousands of dogs being dumped at once by their so called "caring owners". Most rational thinking people who oppose the greyhound racing industry and want it shutdown, want it shutdown in a phased-in approach.

I find it interesting that pro greyhound racing people like to insinuate that if the industry did shutdown, it would be immediately and this is obviously a "scaremongering" tactic aimed at anti greyhound racing people like myself, rather than applying commonsense and logic to their argument.

Obviously pro greyhound racing people have a vested interest in this industry continuing, so I suppose it makes sense they use the arguments and scaremongering that they do to try and ensure its survival. Tis a shame that the killing and suffering of thousands of poor greyhounds in this industry will continue and don't rate a mention from the proponents of this awful industry.

There are no words for how incredibly angry and disgusted this comment makes me.

Some of us here have put our lives in rescuing greyhounds and for someone like you to come along and suggest our concerns for their welfare are scaremongering to keep the industry going.. you really are clueless.

I suppose at the end of the day, no skin off your nose if this shelter all goes to shit because you won't have to help clean up that mess

Edited to add:

I've said this god knows how many times before but some people still haven't got it so here it is again: I am not pro racing, I am not involved in the industry, I do not benefit (financially or otherwise) from greyhound racing.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Maddy

[labadore]

Labadore, even if greyhound racing was phased out, there will be massive dumping of dogs. People won't wait until it's their turn. As soon as any restrictions are imposed people will be out and so too their dogs So if racing ends, quickly or slowly, there had better be very good plans put in place to help the dogs. Very,very good plans.

See Rebanne, this is always the argument about shutting down the industry and I accept there will be casualties, even if the industry is phased out, rather than shutdown immediately, but what about the thousands of greyhounds that will continue to be bred, mass killed and thousands more suffering year in year out, if the industry is allowed to continue? Also we keep hearing that greyhound racing people "love their dogs and treat them like family", so why would they all of sudden have no compunction in abandoning their dogs en-masse if the industry were to be shutdown/phased out?

Please don't miscontrue my post just because we are on opposing sides of this debate .

With regard to proposing to shutdown the industry, nowhere have I proposed that it be shutdown immediately. In fact, in some of my earlier posts, I have metioned that it should be shutdown over a period of time in a "phased-in" approach to avoid the issue of thousands of dogs being dumped at once by their so called "caring owners". Most rational thinking people who oppose the greyhound racing industry and want it shutdown, want it shutdown in a phased-in approach.

I find it interesting that pro greyhound racing people like to insinuate that if the industry did shutdown, it would be immediately and this is obviously a "scaremongering" tactic aimed at anti greyhound racing people like myself, rather than applying commonsense and logic to their argument.

Obviously pro greyhound racing people have a vested interest in this industry continuing, so I suppose it makes sense they use the arguments and scaremongering that they do to try and ensure its survival. Tis a shame that the killing and suffering of thousands of poor greyhounds in this industry will continue and don't rate a mention from the proponents of this awful industry.

There are no words for how incredibly angry and disgusted this comment makes me.

Some of us here have put our lives in rescuing greyhounds and for someone like you to come along and suggest our concerns for their welfare are scaremongering to keep the industry going.. you really are clueless.

I suppose at the end of the day, no skin off your nose if this shelter all goes to shit because you won't have to help clean up that mess

Edited to add:

I've said this god knows how many times before but some people still haven't got it so here it is again: I am not pro racing, I am not involved in the industry, I do not benefit (financially or otherwise) from greyhound racing.

Your anger and disgust is misplaced, why don’t you redirect that anger and disgust to the industry that is responsible for you having to rescue greyhounds and is responsible for mass killings and sufferings of thousands of greyhounds every year.

[Maddy]

Your anger and disgust is misplaced, why don’t you redirect that anger and disgust to the industry that is responsible for you having to rescue greyhounds and is responsible for mass killings and sufferings of thousands of greyhounds every year.

How is my anger at your comments misplaced? The racing industry didn't say those things, you did.

[HazyWal]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

There was discussion on this somewhere on FB and below is a rough list of concerns/questions that will need to be addressed-

1. How will the dog be housed? Tasmania can get really cold, especially down in the southern midlands. Dogs will need access to proper indoor areas in winter.

2. How many dogs will this facility hold? If they plan to take every dog offered, space for at least 200 dogs will be needed, along with exercise/day yards to accommodate that number.

3. Will day/exercise yards be graded/maintained for the safety of the dogs? Many greys are a bit clumsy at the best of times, allowing dogs to gallop in rocky paddocks could be costly at the vet.

4. How will the dogs be monitored when out in day/exercise yards? This applies especially if left out in pairs or groups. Muzzles will not prevent squabbles.

5. Assuming this is going to be a kennel situation, how will dogs actually be prepared for life in a home? This applies to housetraining, socialisation, etc.

6. Are the dogs going to be properly temperament and prey drive assessed by an experienced person? I've heard some very worrying stories about greys coming out of Brightside, lack of testing is going to prove entirely unsustainable very quickly, once untested dogs are being put out to the public in large numbers (and the inevitable problems start to occur).

7. What will happen to dogs that fail prey drive or temperament assessment? Will they be housed indefinitely in a shelter situation? If so, the shelter will need to expand on a regular basis to account for the growing number of dogs.

8. Assuming it will be larger numbers of dogs, how will it be managed to ensure individual welfare requirements are met? This especially applies for failed dogs where minimum standards of welfare are not sufficient to maintain the actual welfare. In such dogs, will there be plans in place to ensure their receive adequate mental/physically/social stimulation?

9. Given Animals Australia and Brightside are animal rights organisations, what will the dogs be eating? Vegan kibble? Regular kibble? Fresh meat? Assuming even a low quality kibble ($1.50 per dog/day), feed bills could easily run into the tens of thousands per year, possibly much higher.

10. Where will funding for their care come from? From my experience, each dog costs at least $500 to rehome and this is without any wages being paid and assuming the dog is rehomed within a few weeks of becoming available. To provide adequate care for each dog, there must be staff available to feed, water, exercise and provide social contact for each dog. Volunteers are great but cannot be relied upon for the daily care of the dogs. Considering costs of staff, food, preventative vet care (wormers, flea treatment, etc). I did some very quick numbers and assuming only two staff (working 8 hour days) and the dogs being fed a very basic food and receiving basic preventative vet care, the yearly running cost would be $222,856. This does not include routine vet work for each dog or things like beds, coats, toys, collars, leads, muzzles, emergency vet expenses or anything else. That number also does not include building or maintaining the kennels, power, water. It'd be difficult to calculate an actual number per year but it would probably be in the millions, if it's done properly.

All valid concerns and will need to be addressed by the animal rights organisations in setting up and running this sanctuary, otherwise they themselves will be coming in for criticism.

Labadore with respect these are not just concerns they are cold, hard facts. There is no room for "otherwise" when you propose to shut down an industry that has thousands of dogs that all of a sudden need somewhere to go and a good percentage of them are not rehomable.

Please don't miscontrue my post just because we are on opposing sides of this debate .

With regard to proposing to shutdown the industry, nowhere have I proposed that it be shutdown immediately. In fact, in some of my earlier posts, I have metioned that it should be shutdown over a period of time in a "phased-in" approach to avoid the issue of thousands of dogs being dumped at once by their so called "caring owners". Most rational thinking people who oppose the greyhound racing industry and want it shutdown, want it shutdown in a phased-in approach.

I find it interesting that pro greyhound racing people like to insinuate that if the industry did shutdown, it would be immediately and this is obviously a "scaremongering" tactic aimed at anti greyhound racing people like myself, rather than applying commonsense and logic to their argument.

Obviously pro greyhound racing people have a vested interest in this industry continuing, so I suppose it makes sense they use the arguments and scaremongering that they do to try and ensure its survival. Tis a shame that the killing and suffering of thousands of poor greyhounds in this industry will continue and don't rate a mention from the proponents of this awful industry.

Who are these "rational" thinking people who oppose the greyhound racing industry you speak of? The ones that track down people IRL and threaten their families, make anonymous phone calls at 1am and say things like "watch your back scum" those ones? Like the charmer that told me yesterday to get a f*cking real job and stop using my greyhounds for profit, even though I had clearly written that I was in greyhound rescue, not a trainer or owner of racing greys. When I once again explained that fact I was then told that I really do want to get into the industry and that I am just a low piece of sh*t. The poster then deleted the whole thread, when they realize that they maybe god forbid wrong they delete and block. That's how they roll. Can you point out the rational part of that conversation? Scaremonger is a good word actually because that's what the anti extremists do best and as I have said a million times, their threats and intimidation of people makes them no better than the industry they so vehemently despise.

Edited March 13, 2015 by HazyWal

[melzawelza]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

There was discussion on this somewhere on FB and below is a rough list of concerns/questions that will need to be addressed-

1. How will the dog be housed? Tasmania can get really cold, especially down in the southern midlands. Dogs will need access to proper indoor areas in winter.

2. How many dogs will this facility hold? If they plan to take every dog offered, space for at least 200 dogs will be needed, along with exercise/day yards to accommodate that number.

3. Will day/exercise yards be graded/maintained for the safety of the dogs? Many greys are a bit clumsy at the best of times, allowing dogs to gallop in rocky paddocks could be costly at the vet.

4. How will the dogs be monitored when out in day/exercise yards? This applies especially if left out in pairs or groups. Muzzles will not prevent squabbles.

5. Assuming this is going to be a kennel situation, how will dogs actually be prepared for life in a home? This applies to housetraining, socialisation, etc.

6. Are the dogs going to be properly temperament and prey drive assessed by an experienced person? I've heard some very worrying stories about greys coming out of Brightside, lack of testing is going to prove entirely unsustainable very quickly, once untested dogs are being put out to the public in large numbers (and the inevitable problems start to occur).

7. What will happen to dogs that fail prey drive or temperament assessment? Will they be housed indefinitely in a shelter situation? If so, the shelter will need to expand on a regular basis to account for the growing number of dogs.

8. Assuming it will be larger numbers of dogs, how will it be managed to ensure individual welfare requirements are met? This especially applies for failed dogs where minimum standards of welfare are not sufficient to maintain the actual welfare. In such dogs, will there be plans in place to ensure their receive adequate mental/physically/social stimulation?

9. Given Animals Australia and Brightside are animal rights organisations, what will the dogs be eating? Vegan kibble? Regular kibble? Fresh meat? Assuming even a low quality kibble ($1.50 per dog/day), feed bills could easily run into the tens of thousands per year, possibly much higher.

10. Where will funding for their care come from? From my experience, each dog costs at least $500 to rehome and this is without any wages being paid and assuming the dog is rehomed within a few weeks of becoming available. To provide adequate care for each dog, there must be staff available to feed, water, exercise and provide social contact for each dog. Volunteers are great but cannot be relied upon for the daily care of the dogs. Considering costs of staff, food, preventative vet care (wormers, flea treatment, etc). I did some very quick numbers and assuming only two staff (working 8 hour days) and the dogs being fed a very basic food and receiving basic preventative vet care, the yearly running cost would be $222,856. This does not include routine vet work for each dog or things like beds, coats, toys, collars, leads, muzzles, emergency vet expenses or anything else. That number also does not include building or maintaining the kennels, power, water. It'd be difficult to calculate an actual number per year but it would probably be in the millions, if it's done properly.

All valid concerns and will need to be addressed by the animal rights organisations in setting up and running this sanctuary, otherwise they themselves will be coming in for criticism.

Labadore with respect these are not just concerns they are cold, hard facts. There is no room for "otherwise" when you propose to shut down an industry that has thousands of dogs that all of a sudden need somewhere to go and a good percentage of them are not rehomable.

Please don't miscontrue my post just because we are on opposing sides of this debate .

With regard to proposing to shutdown the industry, nowhere have I proposed that it be shutdown immediately. In fact, in some of my earlier posts, I have metioned that it should be shutdown over a period of time in a "phased-in" approach to avoid the issue of thousands of dogs being dumped at once by their so called "caring owners". Most rational thinking people who oppose the greyhound racing industry and want it shutdown, want it shutdown in a phased-in approach.

I find it interesting that pro greyhound racing people like to insinuate that if the industry did shutdown, it would be immediately and this is obviously a "scaremongering" tactic aimed at anti greyhound racing people like myself, rather than applying commonsense and logic to their argument.

Obviously pro greyhound racing people have a vested interest in this industry continuing, so I suppose it makes sense they use the arguments and scaremongering that they do to try and ensure its survival. Tis a shame that the killing and suffering of thousands of poor greyhounds in this industry will continue and don't rate a mention from the proponents of this awful industry.

Who are these "rational" thinking people who oppose the greyhound racing industry you speak of? The ones that track down people IRL and threaten their families, make anonymous phone calls at 1am and say things like "watch your back scum" those ones? Like the charmer that told me yesterday to get a f*cking real job and stop using my greyhounds for profit, even though I had clearly written that I was in greyhound rescue, not a trainer or owner of racing greys. When I once again explained that fact I was then told that I really do want to get into the industry and that I am just a low piece of sh*t. The poster then deleted the whole thread, when they realize that they maybe god forbid wrong they delete and block. That's how they roll. Can you point out the rational part of that conversation? Scaremonger is a good word actually because that's what the anti extremists do best and as I have said a million times, their threats and intimidation of people makes them no better than the industry they so vehemently despise.

HazyWal, it's obvious you've experienced some really shitty stuff, but there are plenty of rational people that would like to see the industry phased out for the welfare of the dogs involved. Unfortunately the crazies in any 'cause' are the loudest and most obvious and often drown out those trying to have a rational conversation.

[HazyWal]

The thing is Melz unless you're in the middle of it you really have no idea how bad it is. I'm sure the breed you love and work damn hard for including the abolishment of BSL would be frustrating and heartbreaking but I don't jump in and tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing because I have no idea. That's the difference. When it comes to greyhounds everyones an expert these days. There are a lot of people arguing with at least three of us here that between us have over 30 years in greyhound rescue but apparently WE have no idea. Does that get up my nose? damn straight it does.

Edited March 13, 2015 by HazyWal

[Rebanne]

Labadore, even if greyhound racing was phased out, there will be massive dumping of dogs. People won't wait until it's their turn. As soon as any restrictions are imposed people will be out and so too their dogs So if racing ends, quickly or slowly, there had better be very good plans put in place to help the dogs. Very,very good plans.

See Rebanne, this is always the argument about shutting down the industry and I accept there will be casualties, even if the industry is phased out, rather than shutdown immediately, but what about the thousands of greyhounds that will continue to be bred, mass killed and thousands more suffering year in year out, if the industry is allowed to continue? Also we keep hearing that greyhound racing people "love their dogs and treat them like family", so why would they all of sudden have no compunction in abandoning their dogs en-masse if the industry were to be shutdown/phased out?

most of the owner/trainers will do the right thing, the big guys aren't going to hang onto 100's of dogs, they'll be the first to dump and run. I'm just pointing out that I don't think it will make any difference if the industry is shut down straight away or phased in. Casualties will be very, very high. And the public need to be prepared for that. These are, after all, working dogs and lots of people can't afford to keep and feed working dogs who don't work, what ever sort of work they should do. Government will have to chip in with big bucks somewhere along the line.

[labadore]

Our numbers are similar Maddy.

With regards to the property in Tasmania, while I know that requests are being made for financial assistance to establish the infrastructure, has there been any discussion anywhere as to where the money will come from to feed the dogs and to desex them etc? And to pay staff to clean the kennels etc? Who would wear the cost of flying greyhounds to Tasmania? And back to the mainland to be adopted?

There was discussion on this somewhere on FB and below is a rough list of concerns/questions that will need to be addressed-

1. How will the dog be housed? Tasmania can get really cold, especially down in the southern midlands. Dogs will need access to proper indoor areas in winter.

2. How many dogs will this facility hold? If they plan to take every dog offered, space for at least 200 dogs will be needed, along with exercise/day yards to accommodate that number.

3. Will day/exercise yards be graded/maintained for the safety of the dogs? Many greys are a bit clumsy at the best of times, allowing dogs to gallop in rocky paddocks could be costly at the vet.

4. How will the dogs be monitored when out in day/exercise yards? This applies especially if left out in pairs or groups. Muzzles will not prevent squabbles.

5. Assuming this is going to be a kennel situation, how will dogs actually be prepared for life in a home? This applies to housetraining, socialisation, etc.

6. Are the dogs going to be properly temperament and prey drive assessed by an experienced person? I've heard some very worrying stories about greys coming out of Brightside, lack of testing is going to prove entirely unsustainable very quickly, once untested dogs are being put out to the public in large numbers (and the inevitable problems start to occur).

7. What will happen to dogs that fail prey drive or temperament assessment? Will they be housed indefinitely in a shelter situation? If so, the shelter will need to expand on a regular basis to account for the growing number of dogs.

8. Assuming it will be larger numbers of dogs, how will it be managed to ensure individual welfare requirements are met? This especially applies for failed dogs where minimum standards of welfare are not sufficient to maintain the actual welfare. In such dogs, will there be plans in place to ensure their receive adequate mental/physically/social stimulation?

9. Given Animals Australia and Brightside are animal rights organisations, what will the dogs be eating? Vegan kibble? Regular kibble? Fresh meat? Assuming even a low quality kibble ($1.50 per dog/day), feed bills could easily run into the tens of thousands per year, possibly much higher.

10. Where will funding for their care come from? From my experience, each dog costs at least $500 to rehome and this is without any wages being paid and assuming the dog is rehomed within a few weeks of becoming available. To provide adequate care for each dog, there must be staff available to feed, water, exercise and provide social contact for each dog. Volunteers are great but cannot be relied upon for the daily care of the dogs. Considering costs of staff, food, preventative vet care (wormers, flea treatment, etc). I did some very quick numbers and assuming only two staff (working 8 hour days) and the dogs being fed a very basic food and receiving basic preventative vet care, the yearly running cost would be $222,856. This does not include routine vet work for each dog or things like beds, coats, toys, collars, leads, muzzles, emergency vet expenses or anything else. That number also does not include building or maintaining the kennels, power, water. It'd be difficult to calculate an actual number per year but it would probably be in the millions, if it's done properly.

All valid concerns and will need to be addressed by the animal rights organisations in setting up and running this sanctuary, otherwise they themselves will be coming in for criticism.

Labadore with respect these are not just concerns they are cold, hard facts. There is no room for "otherwise" when you propose to shut down an industry that has thousands of dogs that all of a sudden need somewhere to go and a good percentage of them are not rehomable.

Please don't miscontrue my post just because we are on opposing sides of this debate .

With regard to proposing to shutdown the industry, nowhere have I proposed that it be shutdown immediately. In fact, in some of my earlier posts, I have metioned that it should be shutdown over a period of time in a "phased-in" approach to avoid the issue of thousands of dogs being dumped at once by their so called "caring owners". Most rational thinking people who oppose the greyhound racing industry and want it shutdown, want it shutdown in a phased-in approach.

I find it interesting that pro greyhound racing people like to insinuate that if the industry did shutdown, it would be immediately and this is obviously a "scaremongering" tactic aimed at anti greyhound racing people like myself, rather than applying commonsense and logic to their argument.

Obviously pro greyhound racing people have a vested interest in this industry continuing, so I suppose it makes sense they use the arguments and scaremongering that they do to try and ensure its survival. Tis a shame that the killing and suffering of thousands of poor greyhounds in this industry will continue and don't rate a mention from the proponents of this awful industry.

Who are these "rational" thinking people who oppose the greyhound racing industry you speak of? The ones that track down people IRL and threaten their families, make anonymous phone calls at 1am and say things like "watch your back scum" those ones? Like the charmer that told me yesterday to get a f*cking real job and stop using my greyhounds for profit, even though I had clearly written that I was in greyhound rescue, not a trainer or owner of racing greys. When I once again explained that fact I was then told that I really do want to get into the industry and that I am just a low piece of sh*t. The poster then deleted the whole thread, when they realize that they maybe god forbid wrong they delete and block. That's how they roll. Can you point out the rational part of that conversation? Scaremonger is a good word actually because that's what the anti extremists do best and as I have said a million times, their threats and intimidation of people makes them no better than the industry they so vehemently despise.

HazyWal, it's obvious you've experienced some really shitty stuff, but there are plenty of rational people that would like to see the industry phased out for the welfare of the dogs involved. Unfortunately the crazies in any 'cause' are the loudest and most obvious and often drown out those trying to have a rational conversation.[/b]

The thing is Melz unless you're in the middle of it you really have no idea how bad it is. I'm sure the breed you love and work damn hard for including the abolishment of BSL would be frustrating and heartbreaking but I don't jump in and tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing because I have no idea. That's the difference. When it comes to greyhounds everyones an expert these days. There are a lot of people arguing with at least three of us here that between us have over 30 years in greyhound rescue but apparently WE have no idea. Does that get up my nose? damn straight it does.

Do you know the meaning of "can't see the forest for the trees? I believe it applies here and to the industry as whole. You don't need to be a greyhound expert to have an opinion on this industry and its failings, it is glaringly obvious for all to see. People from outside the industry/situation can view things more objectively and that is the reason why people from outside the industry have been brought in to conduct the various State inquiries into the Greyhound Racing industry and why the State greyhound boards in NSW and VIC were sacked/resigned as nothing will change if they stayed in place and reform needs to start from the top down if there is any chance of reform happening.

The industry has done an abysmal job of self regulating and cleaning up its act despite the numerous warnings it has had over the years and meanwhile thousands of poor greyhounds continue to suffer . The old "go away and don't try to tell us who have been doing this for x number of years/head in the sand stuff" doesn't cut it anymore and no industry/company/person is above scrutiny from the outside.

The whole idea of a forum is so people can express their views on a subject and people should be able to express their views without being labelled as "anti-extremists/animal rights nutters etc" just because they have opposing views on the subject matter being discussed. Whilst I accept there are "extremists" in any group, there are actually a large number of us more "moderate" people who campaign for some kind of social change on issues we feel passionate about and this is one such issue I feel passionately about.

[labadore]

Labadore, even if greyhound racing was phased out, there will be massive dumping of dogs. People won't wait until it's their turn. As soon as any restrictions are imposed people will be out and so too their dogs So if racing ends, quickly or slowly, there had better be very good plans put in place to help the dogs. Very,very good plans.

See Rebanne, this is always the argument about shutting down the industry and I accept there will be casualties, even if the industry is phased out, rather than shutdown immediately, but what about the thousands of greyhounds that will continue to be bred, mass killed and thousands more suffering year in year out, if the industry is allowed to continue? Also we keep hearing that greyhound racing people "love their dogs and treat them like family", so why would they all of sudden have no compunction in abandoning their dogs en-masse if the industry were to be shutdown/phased out?

most of the owner/trainers will do the right thing, the big guys aren't going to hang onto 100's of dogs, they'll be the first to dump and run. I'm just pointing out that I don't think it will make any difference if the industry is shut down straight away or phased in. Casualties will be very, very high. And the public need to be prepared for that. These are, after all, working dogs and lots of people can't afford to keep and feed working dogs who don't work, what ever sort of work they should do. Government will have to chip in with big bucks somewhere along the line.

This is the conumdrum though isn't it as there are already very very high casualties year in year out for the greyhounds in this industry and these casualties will continue each year the industry continues operating if it is not shutdown/phased out. No doubt these issues will be part of the discussions in the independent State inquiries.

[HazyWal]

Labadore I give up.

I wish you well with greyhound rescue, it's a tough gig believe me...or not. I have devoted a few years to fostering, transporting, fundraising and adopting my own two hounds. I live and breathe these beautiful dogs, I have cried a river of tears over the feeling of helplessness and had many a sleepless night but the "us and them" attitude has worn me down. Time to sit back on the lounge with my greys and let the experts handle this it seems.

[moosmum]

It bothers me a lot when people call for an industry to be shut down when it isn't conforming to accepted standards of responsibility.

Thats a dangerous course to promote. The purpose of these dogs is not the problem.

Expectation preceeds result, and expectation changes.

A participants success will ultimatly depend on them meeting the expectations from the environment as long there is sufficient pressure to conform to its ideals.

Erroding purpose for dogs does nothing to promote them.

Edited March 13, 2015 by moosmum

[Maddy]

It bothers me a lot when people call for an industry to be shut down when it isn't conforming to accepted standards of responsibility.

Thats a dangerous course to promote. The purpose of these dogs is not the problem.

Expectation preceeds result, and expectation changes.

A participants success will ultimatly depend on them meeting the expectations from the environment as long there is sufficient pressure to conform to its ideals.

Erroding purpose for dogs does nothing to promote them.

Silly Moosmum and her silly logic.

It's not as if the animal rights people have their sights set on other dog issues, like conformation showing or dog sports. Oh wait..

[melzawelza]

The thing is Melz unless you're in the middle of it you really have no idea how bad it is. I'm sure the breed you love and work damn hard for including the abolishment of BSL would be frustrating and heartbreaking but I don't jump in and tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing because I have no idea. That's the difference. When it comes to greyhounds everyones an expert these days. There are a lot of people arguing with at least three of us here that between us have over 30 years in greyhound rescue but apparently WE have no idea. Does that get up my nose? damn straight it does.

I understand what you're saying, and know that you guys are right in the thick of things. But I also think that fresh eyes can also do a world of good. It's possible for people to not be able to see the forest for the trees when in the thick of it. (Not saying this is you guys necessarily, I'm more talking generally). There are a lot of progressive movements in rescue on a whole and it's often the people that have been doing it for 20+ years that stay stuck in their ways and won't move forward, which is a detriment to the dogs.

I see a lot of parallels between your dogs and my dogs. There were (and still are) people who say that banning dog fighting was the worst thing that could have been done for the dogs. Lots of dog fighters loved and looked after their dogs and kept them as pets. The dogs received veterinary care but are now much less likely to after the bans. The dogs ended up demonised in the media - BSL came in... There were definitely a lot of negatives for the dogs that came out of the banning of dog fighting as a sport. But there aren't too many people would argue now, 40+ years later, that dog fighting should still be legal because of those reasons.

Anyway, at the end of the day all I was saying to you is that there are plenty of normal, non-crazy, non-AR nuts who would like to see an end to Greyhound racing, that don't threaten trainers, that won't attack you and other Grey rescuers etc etc. Your post stated that they don't exist.

[m-j]

It bothers me a lot when people call for an industry to be shut down when it isn't conforming to accepted standards of responsibility.

Thats a dangerous course to promote. The purpose of these dogs is not the problem.

Expectation preceeds result, and expectation changes.

A participants success will ultimatly depend on them meeting the expectations from the environment as long there is sufficient pressure to conform to its ideals.

Erroding purpose for dogs does nothing to promote them.

Here here!!! I couldn't agree more.

In many ways the industry has the mind set of the "old days" where animals didn't have needs, they were animals, Back when leaving dogs on chains day in day out was accepted, dogs not needing training until they were 6mths old and then nailing them to the wall for doing natural dog behaviours labelled as naughty by humans, Koehler in the 50's, 60's and 70's and others like him. I did some things I'm not proud to say I did because that's what I was told that's what you needed to do. As a dog training instructor (obedience and behaviour, not racing), in the last twenty odd years I have heard some pretty sad stories from very nice people who were given bad advise because of these attitudes. When I first started using positive motivation I copped a heap of flack, those that I still know have changed through being shown what to do and seeing results, not from me but others. These attitudes have changed, not overnight, but they did, I believe this industry's attitude can also with the right type of pressure in the right place.

[mita]

The purpose of the greyhounds is to run as they enjoy. The problem is that the context is not just a hobby, as with other dog sports. It's associated with a commercial, gambling industry where to be viable, money takes first place. And that means each greyhound in the industry is not just a dog doing what it enjoys, it's an economic unit, about which major calculations have to be made. How to balance that with modern expectations about dogs' welfare is the challenge. And, then, how to monitor & police given that they're kept on private property.

I wonder how much parallel can be drawn with the purebred breeding world. Interestingly, some US research showed that the 'best raised' dogs for social purposes and, hence, long-term welfare ... came from registered breeders who regard what they do as a personal, loved hobby, not a business. These breeders are usually living up to the Ethical Guidelines set by Kennel Clubs. Of course, they still have to make economic considerations about their dogs. They'd be foolish & irresponsible not to. But priority can still go on the dogs & their breed.

If only greyhound racing could be re-visioned as a hobby dog sport in a similar mould & with appropriate Ethical Guidelines. With expectations they're to be followed, & monitored, as far as humanly possible.

Edited March 14, 2015 by mita

[m-j]

The purpose of the greyhounds is to run as they enjoy. The problem is that the context is not just a hobby, as with other dog sports. It's associated with a commercial, gambling industry where to be viable, money takes first place. And that means each greyhound in the industry is not just a dog doing what it enjoys, it's an economic unit, about which calculations have to be made. How to balance that with modern expectations about dogs' welfare is the challenge. And, then, how to monitor & police given that they're kept on private property.

I wonder how much parallel can be drawn with the purebred breeding world. Interestingly, some US research showed that the 'best raised' dogs for social purposes and, hence, long-term welfare ... came from registered breeders who regard what they do as a personal, loved hobby, not a business. These breeders are usually living up to the Ethical Guidelines set by Kennel Clubs. Of course, they still have to make economic considerations about their dogs. They'd be foolish & irresponsible not to. But priority can still go on the dogs & their breed.

If only greyhound racing could be re-visioned as a hobby dog sport in a similar mould & with appropriate Ethical Guidelines. With expectations they're to be followed, & monitored, as far as humanly possible.

Couldn't registration prices be increased so that the extra income can go to an independent body to employ people to police greyhound facilities. The TAB/bookies could give a percentage of income from dog racing to that independent body as they are the big winners from gambling. Change laws so that if you have purchased a greyhound you wish to race it must be from and go through registered greyhound facilities. If you have registered your property as a greyhound facility you must allow unannounced inspections. Since they can record all breeding dog's DNA, they can record and check if all dogs that are racing have been through registered facilities. Increased prices will help prevent breeding on a whim.

I'm guessing we all know that not all show breeders are ethical, look at Crufts this year. I know of a family that put their kids second to the dogs and they suffered for it, plus the dog's life wasn't what I would say was ideal. I've heard whispers about some dog sport competitors just as I had heard whispers about live baiting. I've seen many many dogs not enjoying their experience in the show ring, trial ring or participating in a training session you can see they would rather be anywhere else.

I'm guessing not on the same scale as money but self esteem can be a powerful motivator to win at all costs too, .

[sandgrubber]

Just curious. How is the economic health of greyhound racing in NSW (or Australia in general)? Here in Florida, the industry is barely viable. The legislature is debating whether or not to kick the legs out from under the industry by removing legislation that requires card gambling establishments to provide live greyhound racing. The industry is in decline and will probably fade away if not propped up by gambling houses and legislation. (the issue is called Decoupling by people who want to take away the legislative prop).

See, eg. http://www.grey2kusa.org/action/states/fl.php