Four Corners: Greyhound Racing: Live Baiting Revelations

[Rebanne]

Ernie has taken 2 feral rabbits in our back yard and badly damaged a bush Turkey. He's a Labrador retriever- not a dog I would suspect of having a hunting drive. If it's small and it squeaks, I think it's instinct.

On the other hand, that bush Turkey was a monster.

Dogs are dogs and IMO most working dogs have great prey drive but it's been refocused by humans. Really why would a Lab run out and retrieve a dead bird if there wasn't something in it for him? Originally the breed probably got to share the bird. The cast away by a herding dog is something wolf packs would do. It's just been honed for centuries.

[Steph M]

I don't think anyone is saying the whole thing isn't barbaric, more refuting the suggestion these dogs need to never be released to the public. Such a sad notion.

[dogbesotted]

I don't think anyone is saying the whole thing isn't barbaric, more refuting the suggestion these dogs need to never be released to the public. Such a sad notion.

the humans are barbaric while the dogs are victims. It is so "safe" declare that these greys are dangerous.. how many have prior to this been rehomed by reputable rehoming organisations? and these would all have passed their rehoming tests.

These people cheated as much as if they injected their dogs with performance enhancing drugs, they also broke the law regarding animal abuse and torture, and they thought it was "funny". They have tarnished an industry that was supposedly attempting to glamorise itself.. while some of their pin up boys and girls were involved in outright cheating and illegal activities... this is no different to Lance Armstrong and the cycling drug cheats.. until you come to the animal abuse.. why is there no huge outcry ?? the law abiding trainers and owners have been shafted and so has the industry. The offenders need to be on the receiving end of maximum penalties plus being excluded from any racing activity for life... and dare i say in order to avoid the waterhouse whitewashes.. their family members should be excluded as well. It is not acceptable to transfer ownership etc to a family members and continue their putrid influence.

I suggest that concerned people write to their various parliamentary members, the ministers in charge of racing and newspapers condemning the owners but supporting greyhound rehoming...

H

Edited February 21, 2015 by dogbesotted

[mita]

[ actually think a lot of greyhounds that have gone through GAP and other rescues have been trained with rabbits even if they were already dead, they are encouraged to bite onto the arm and you can use squeakers that sound very much like an animal dying. I fostered dogs straight from the trainer, I had 4 cats. I would bet money that they had all at least had a "bite on" as it was legal then. It is a testimony to their wonderful temperament that they all passed GAP. There would be no way of knowing which dog was blooded and which wasn't. Super keen doesn't mean they have killed, just that they are super keen. I know of quite a few GAP dogs that have gone out to rural properties that kill rabbits. They don't then try to kill small dogs or children when around them. In fact one was a "school" dog. One that went into schools to teach small children how to interact with dogs.

Rebanne, we need evidence which is why I support the idea of an enquiry before we can say that greys who've passed thro' GAP have been blooded... or not. And advice from experts in dog behaviour.

The evidence is in that there's a cross-over between dogs' prey drive leading to killing of small animals & the most commonly bitten group... small children. Not to mention small dogs.

This needs to be thrashed out, according to rigorous evidence, not just what any of us (including me) think. And deep down, it applies to any dog, not just greys. Maybe it comes down to rigorous testing of individual greys ... I don't know.

[mita]

I believe the poor greyhounds caught up in the fallout should be given every chance to find a new home through GAP or other such greyhound rescues. No doubt some of the already successfully rehomed greyhounds were trained using these "blooding" methods and this should not rule them out from being given a chance to be assessed for rehoming.

I don't mean to be rude... but how can you say 'no doubt' when there's not evidence?

This question needs to be thrashed out.... with evidence and expertise. And, I agree with you that it not only applies to greys, it applies to other dogs as well. The breed shouldn't be singled out for things that just generally apply to dogs.

I certainly was comfortable with our small dogs living next door to greyhounds that I knew, without doubt, were not blooded with small animals.

I could have no doubt as the trainer was strong in opposing it as totally unnecessary to motivate greys to run. He took pride in the fact that he was thought too 'soft' with his greys, treating them like companion pets. And socializing his puppies with children & with our small dogs. Yet some became state sprint champions.

Even tho' I wouldn't have had expert opinion to go on, I would've been uncomfortable if he'd been a trainer who blooded his greys. Which is why, now that the issue has hit the headlines, I welcome an enquiry, which would gather evidence & expert opinion.

Edited February 21, 2015 by mita

[dogbesotted]

not a grey hound but rather a pitbull. Years ago just as breed specific murder was beginning here. I became guardian of a 6yo pitbull named jake , who had been a fighting dog for most of his 6 years. My son rescued him from his owner who was being raided by the RSPCA and police and who eventually did actual jail time. Now according to pitbull mythology Jake should have been the worst of the worst because as people would say.. he had been blooded and therefore was dangerous. Jake was simply one of the very best dogs I have ever had the pleasure of living with .. and yep i have a multi dog house and working maremmas. Despite juvenile maremma challenges Jake never once set a paw wrong...

six years of fighting and then to a soft bed and he loved it!

Greys would be similar.. we should not murder the victims just to make ourselves think we are doing something about a problem that is caused by human beings. The test is a Rebanne states " It is a testimony to their wonderful temperament that they all passed GAP"

H

Edited February 21, 2015 by dogbesotted

[Rebanne]

[ actually think a lot of greyhounds that have gone through GAP and other rescues have been trained with rabbits even if they were already dead, they are encouraged to bite onto the arm and you can use squeakers that sound very much like an animal dying. I fostered dogs straight from the trainer, I had 4 cats. I would bet money that they had all at least had a "bite on" as it was legal then. It is a testimony to their wonderful temperament that they all passed GAP. There would be no way of knowing which dog was blooded and which wasn't. Super keen doesn't mean they have killed, just that they are super keen. I know of quite a few GAP dogs that have gone out to rural properties that kill rabbits. They don't then try to kill small dogs or children when around them. In fact one was a "school" dog. One that went into schools to teach small children how to interact with dogs.

Rebanne, we need evidence which is why I support the idea of an enquiry before we can say that greys who've passed thro' GAP have been blooded... or not. And advice from experts in dog behaviour.

The evidence is in that there's a cross-over between dogs' prey drive leading to killing of small animals & the most commonly bitten group... small children. Not to mention small dogs.

This needs to be thrashed out, according to rigorous evidence, not just what any of us (including me) think. And deep down, it applies to any dog, not just greys. Maybe it comes down to rigorous testing of individual greys ... I don't know.

You're talking rubbish, do you know how many greyhounds have been adopted out by the various ethical adoption groups? many, many hundreds and there was bound to be some in there blooded. Whether the humans did it to them or they caught their own bird or rabbit in the backyard, paddock, run. Do you think all those dogs have not been individually tested? My biggest killer of birds was my medium size crossbred, she was deadly but she never even looked like biting a child. Her prey drive was higher then my GSD's and most of my Greyhounds. Seems like you think the only good greyhound came out of your neighbours yard and and all the rest are killers just waiting to happen. I bet some of your neighbours dogs would have killed a bird or two in their lifetimes and maybe a few bunnies as well depending where they were adopted out to.

[mita]

[

You're talking rubbish,... I bet some of your neighbours dogs would have killed a bird or two in their lifetimes and maybe a few bunnies as well depending where they were adopted out to.

First, I speak to you courteously. And I expect you to do the same to me.

Note that I've said I want these matters to be thrashed out with evidence & expert opinion in an enquiry. And have made it clear I do not represent 'expert' opinion. Just what I've tried to make out of discussions on this issue. Also note that I've also referred to small dogs, not only small children.

That's fair comment that I could over-generalize from my experience of living next door to greys raised & kept in a particular way.

Edited February 21, 2015 by mita

[Rebanne]

[

You're talking rubbish,... I bet some of your neighbours dogs would have killed a bird or two in their lifetimes and maybe a few bunnies as well depending where they were adopted out to.

First, I speak to you courteously. And I expect you to do the same to me.

Note that I've said I want these matters to be thrashed out with evidence & expert opinion in an enquiry. And have made it clear I do not represent 'expert' opinion. Just what I've tried to make out of discussions on this issue.

That's fair comment that it's likely I could over-generalize from my experience of living next door to greys raised & kept in a particular way.

I don't care what you expect. You are talking rubbish. There is no way to tell if any dog has been blooded, no way. Even if it is the ravishing beast you expect it to be does not mean it has been blooded. I refuse to get myself banned over you, you are so not worth it. End of conversation

[mita]

[

You're talking rubbish,... I bet some of your neighbours dogs would have killed a bird or two in their lifetimes and maybe a few bunnies as well depending where they were adopted out to.

First, I speak to you courteously. And I expect you to do the same to me.

Note that I've said I want these matters to be thrashed out with evidence & expert opinion in an enquiry. And have made it clear I do not represent 'expert' opinion. Just what I've tried to make out of discussions on this issue.

That's fair comment that it's likely I could over-generalize from my experience of living next door to greys raised & kept in a particular way.

I don't care what you expect. You are talking rubbish. There is no way to tell if any dog has been blooded, no way. Even if it is the ravishing beast you expect it to be does not mean it has been blooded. I refuse to get myself banned over you, you are so not worth it. End of conversation

Not end of conversation. You will not speak rudely to me. Especially as I'm as interested in hearing your opinions, as anyone else's. Why on earth should you be worried about getting banned for giving opinions that you have every right to give, same as me?

[anniek]

I certainly was comfortable with our small dogs living next door to greyhounds that I knew, without doubt, were not blooded with small animals.

How do you know for sure? Did this fellow break in his own pups or did they go to be broken in when they were young?

[mita]

I certainly was comfortable with our small dogs living next door to greyhounds that I knew, without doubt, were not blooded with small animals.

How do you know for sure? Did this fellow break in his own pups or did they go to be broken in when they were young?

He had a network of colleagues he worked with who shared his belief that it wasn't necessary to blood greyhounds. He sent his pups, at a certain age, to one of those on a country property. We were in outer suburbia. He has since moved to a country property himself, having retired, so he can do it full time.

Please note my later comment that while, at the time, I would've been uncomfortable living next door, with small dogs, to someone who blooded their greys... it was not based on having any expert opinion. Which is why a I welcome an enquiry that will gather that.

[labadore]

I believe the poor greyhounds caught up in the fallout should be given every chance to find a new home through GAP or other such greyhound rescues. No doubt some of the already successfully rehomed greyhounds were trained using these "blooding" methods and this should not rule them out from being given a chance to be assessed for rehoming.

I don't mean to be rude... but how can you say 'no doubt' when there's not evidence?

This question needs to be thrashed out.... with evidence and expertise. And, I agree with you that it not only applies to greys, it applies to other dogs as well. The breed shouldn't be singled out for things that just generally apply to dogs.

I certainly was comfortable with our small dogs living next door to greyhounds that I knew, without doubt, were not blooded with small animals.

I could have no doubt as the trainer was strong in opposing it as totally unnecessary to motivate greys to run. He took pride in the fact that he was thought too 'soft' with his greys, treating them like companion pets. And socializing his puppies with children & with our small dogs. Yet some became state sprint champions.

Even tho' I wouldn't have had expert opinion to go on, I would've been uncomfortable if he'd been a trainer who blooded his greys. Which is why, now that the issue has hit the headlines, I welcome an enquiry, which would gather evidence & expert opinion.

Given that this "blooding" method of training has been going on for many years by a number of trainers, some whom have been caught and others that won't be, it would extremely naive to believe that any greyhounds trained using this method have not been rehomed through GAP or other greyhound rescues. As long as they pass the GAP/rescue tests, they should be able to be rehomed irrespective of the training methods used. The hard concrete evidence isn't there as the "blooding" training method has been illegal for quite some time and despite rumours and innuendo throughout the greyhound racing industry on this training method, until the Four Corners program, there was supposedly no evidence that this cruel and inhumane training method was being used, so how would GAP or any other greyhound rescue know what training methods were being used. Even if they knew/suspected, as long as the greyhound being assessed for rehoming passed their tests that all that should matter, not the training method used.

[gapvic]

I do not consider myself an expert, but I have been working with greyhounds for over 17 years now and have assessed over 6500 dogs. I absolutely believe that there is no correlation whatsoever between predatory behaviour and aggression towards children. Predatory behaviour, or prey drive, is NOT aggression but completely different. We all saw in that dreadful, shocking footage, the child standing at the side of the trial track while a greyhound was given the rabbit to kill. Did the greyhound redirect onto the child? No. We saw the trainers taking the dogs off the arms. Did the greyhounds then redirect onto the trainers? No. Go to a coursing meeting - you'll see young children walking keyed up, excited greyhounds down to the slipper. Would they be allowed to do this if they were at risk of being bitten? No.

Greyhounds for years have been allowed to grab onto a dead rabbit on the arm when being trialed. Does it make any difference to the greyhound if the rabbit is alive or not? I'm doubtful. Does that make the greyhound dog a cold blooded killer that will hurt a child? Absolutely not.

This old mentality that if a dog has killed something it now has "the taste of blood" and will therefore be a risk to children needs to go.

Almost every breed of dog will kill something at some point in his life. Does that mean they are now dangerous and shouldn't be kept as a pet? No.

Over the years we have had dogs come to our Program, and pass assessment, that were owned or trained by some of the people named in Victoria. I've no idea what training methods were used on these dogs, and I'm not going to speculate. But they passed our assessment.

Greyhounds are a calm, gentle, adaptable dog. The vast majority understand the difference between a lure and a small dog or a child.

Edited February 21, 2015 by gapvic

[mita]

The hard concrete evidence isn't there as the "blooding" training method has been illegal for quite some time and despite rumours and innuendo throughout the greyhound racing industry on this training method, until the Four Corners program, there was supposedly no evidence that this cruel and inhumane training method was being used, so how would GAP or any other greyhound rescue know what training methods were being used. Even if they knew/suspected, as long as the greyhound being assessed for rehoming passed their tests that all that should matter, not the training method used.

That's fair comment. Which is why I welcome an enquiry. Not just in Victoria.

I'd generalized from a trainer who was vocal in how he had no truck with blooding...& he shared that with his network of friends. I'd just assumed those trainers offering dogs to GAP were of his same mind. That's why I agreed for my small dog to be a small dog tester for GAP. Only grey I witnessed being a bit twitchy with the small dog, was one that come thro' the RSPCA & was being given the GAP assessment protocol.

I have to be honest, tho', if this issue had arisen at that time, I would have withdrawn my small dog as a tester for GAP until an expert enquiry was over. Which may well conclude what you've said.... or not. Certainly no GAP grey in the small sample I saw gave any worry at all.

[mita]

I do not consider myself an expert, but I have been working with greyhounds for over 17 years now and have assessed over 6500 dogs.

That would count as expertise in opinion sought by an Enquiry.

[Rebanne]

I do not consider myself an expert, but I have been working with greyhounds for over 17 years now and have assessed over 6500 dogs. I absolutely believe that there is no correlation whatsoever between predatory behaviour and aggression towards children. Predatory behaviour, or prey drive, is NOT aggression but completely different. We all saw in that dreadful, shocking footage, the child standing at the side of the trial track while a greyhound was given the rabbit to kill. Did the greyhound redirect onto the child? No. We saw the trainers taking the dogs off the arms. Did the greyhounds then redirect onto the trainers? No. Go to a coursing meeting - you'll see young children walking keyed up, excited greyhounds down to the slipper. Would they be allowed to do this if they were at risk of being bitten? No.

Greyhounds for years have been allowed to grab onto a dead rabbit on the arm when being trialed. Does it make any difference to the greyhound if the rabbit is alive or not? I'm doubtful. Does that make the greyhound dog a cold blooded killer that will hurt a child? Absolutely not.

This old mentality that if a dog has killed something it now has "the taste of blood" and will therefore be a risk to children needs to go.

Almost every breed of dog will kill something at some point in his life. Does that mean they are now dangerous and shouldn't be kept as a pet? No.

Over the years we have had dogs come to our Program, and pass assessment, that were owned or trained by some of the people named in Victoria. I've no idea what training methods were used on these dogs, and I'm not going to speculate. But they passed our assessment.

Greyhounds are a calm, gentle, adaptable dog. The vast majority understand the difference between a lure and a small dog or a child.

[melzawelza]

All dogs should be assessed as individuals without the connotations or assumptions of breed, past experiences or training.

Dogs rescued from fight busts in the US are now often given the chance to be assessed as individuals by behaviour experts for suitability of rehabilitation (if needed) and rehoming. It doesn't matter what they've been trained to do or how many fights they've been in - what matters is their individual behaviour and how it manifests AWAY from the context in which they are used to performing certain behaviours.

As an example, I remember Donna from BADRAP explaining that when they attended a shelter to do assessments on a number of dogs rescued from a bust, the shelter staff asked if they could watch and learn. T

They set up a barricade between the 15-20 staff and where the dogs would be assessed to attempt to lessen any stress from their presence.

Donna & Tim found that each dog they brought out seemed to 'switch on' as soon as they brought them out. Their behaviour changed and they seemed to be becoming stressed and started looking around, as if looking for another dog.

They suddenly realised that the barricade and 'audience' sitting watching was extremely similar to the experiences they would have had during matches, and the dogs were anticipating another dog to appear and a fight as soon as they found themselves in that situation.

They took it all away and re tested the dogs without that situational cue and they were very different, many in fact being quite social with the other dogs and many others showing promise with some behavioural guidance. (The majority of these dogs are suitable for rehoming and many are rehomed with other dogs or animals. Some don't even need rehab/training!). They learned that in that specific context they were expected to (and encouraged to) show aggression towards the other dog, and that other dog was likely to show aggression to them. Take them away from that and so many of them just aren't interested in it all.

Dogs don't generalise well and context is everything. A Greyhound that has killed a small animal on a mechanical lure in a very specific circumstances may not show huge prey drive in other contexts and certainly may not show it to small animals of their own species or human beings.

It's not that hard - assess them as individuals just like the dogfighting victims are assessed as individuals. It doesn't matter if they've been 'blooded' or not, just like it doesn't matter how many fights the dogs rescued have been in or whether they've been in fights at all. What matters is their current behaviour in various contexts that they may experience as pet dogs.

Edited February 21, 2015 by melzawelza

[Lhok]

The hard concrete evidence isn't there as the "blooding" training method has been illegal for quite some time and despite rumours and innuendo throughout the greyhound racing industry on this training method, until the Four Corners program, there was supposedly no evidence that this cruel and inhumane training method was being used, so how would GAP or any other greyhound rescue know what training methods were being used. Even if they knew/suspected, as long as the greyhound being assessed for rehoming passed their tests that all that should matter, not the training method used.

That's fair comment. Which is why I welcome an enquiry. Not just in Victoria.

I'd generalized from a trainer who was vocal in how he had no truck with blooding...& he shared that with his network of friends. I'd just assumed those trainers offering dogs to GAP were of his same mind. That's why I agreed for my small dog to be a small dog tester for GAP. Only grey I witnessed being a bit twitchy with the small dog, was one that come thro' the RSPCA & was being given the GAP assessment protocol.

I have to be honest, tho', if this issue had arisen at that time, I would have withdrawn my small dog as a tester for GAP until an expert enquiry was over. Which may well conclude what you've said.... or not. Certainly no GAP grey in the small sample I saw gave any worry at all.

Unless you have hard evidence that his dogs never had done it you really can't say they have or haven't been blooded. Not having a go at you or your friend but even on the four corners program when asked most of them said they didn't do it and and were vocal against the practice. It was only when they were found out that they took to the no comment lines.

The issue above is the reason why no one will know either way which dogs have or haven't been blooded except for the ones that we saw in those videos. We also know there were many dogs on the property but we still have no idea which of them have or haven't been blooded the only ones who do know are the ones who are facing charges/investigation and I honestly don't think they will come completely clean on everything.

--Lhok

Edited February 21, 2015 by Lhok

[dogbesotted]

I do not consider myself an expert, but I have been working with greyhounds for over 17 years now and have assessed over 6500 dogs. I absolutely believe that there is no correlation whatsoever between predatory behaviour and aggression towards children. Predatory behaviour, or prey drive, is NOT aggression but completely different. We all saw in that dreadful, shocking footage, the child standing at the side of the trial track while a greyhound was given the rabbit to kill. Did the greyhound redirect onto the child? No. We saw the trainers taking the dogs off the arms. Did the greyhounds then redirect onto the trainers? No. Go to a coursing meeting - you'll see young children walking keyed up, excited greyhounds down to the slipper. Would they be allowed to do this if they were at risk of being bitten? No.

Greyhounds for years have been allowed to grab onto a dead rabbit on the arm when being trialed. Does it make any difference to the greyhound if the rabbit is alive or not? I'm doubtful. Does that make the greyhound dog a cold blooded killer that will hurt a child? Absolutely not.

This old mentality that if a dog has killed something it now has "the taste of blood" and will therefore be a risk to children needs to go.

Almost every breed of dog will kill something at some point in his life. Does that mean they are now dangerous and shouldn't be kept as a pet? No.

Over the years we have had dogs come to our Program, and pass assessment, that were owned or trained by some of the people named in Victoria. I've no idea what training methods were used on these dogs, and I'm not going to speculate. But they passed our assessment.

Greyhounds are a calm, gentle, adaptable dog. The vast majority understand the difference between a lure and a small dog or a child.

thankyou!!!

H