westiemum Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Hi All, I've been having a lot of trouble lately with Sarah, my 13 year old westie who was desexed at the age of 5 after two litters with her breeder and had two bouts of HGE at ages 5 and 6 - I'm not sure if any of that is connected to her current gut/GI/continence difficulties. She is wee incontinent overnight almost every night for the last week - a huge increase on the occasional incontinence she's had for some years. It seems to happen when she's really deeply asleep. Wondering if the Stilboestrol has stopped working. I had to put 'pants' on her last night and the pad was wet this morning. She is on a bland, turkey mince, ground turkey bone and basmati rice diet as anything else - especially red meat seems to make her worse. She walks hunched as if she has a pain in her belly. She has terrible wind that can clear a room, rumbly tummy, occasional yellow diarrhoea and vomiting. The occasional vomiting is bright yellow, foamy and has undigested 'bits' in it. Similarly the intermittent watery poo has a yellow tinge to it too and - and she has become more 'snappy' than usual around food. Last year she lost a lot of weight but since we've been 'home' in the new house she's put it back on again to the point where I think she's almost too heavy. Still eats well and wolfs her breakfast and dinner. Otherwise she seems happy enough and she's still wagging her tail. A friend who is very knowledgeable about dogs and food suggested that I should check for EPI - I'd never heard of it. And certainly when I did a search it seems its a possibility. But I thought I'd check the DOL brains trust first. Has anyone any experience with this or can help me shed some light on what's going on here before we head back to the vet ? As in hindsight, I may not have given the vet enough to go on the first time. so we haven't got to the bottom of it. TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightstar123 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 EPI could certainly be possible, it can cause all of those clinical signs and is frequently caused by chronic pancreatitis. Did she get tested for pancreatitis when she was diagnosed with HGE? Dogs with EPI usually have a ravenous appetite, profuse foul-smelling yellow or grey stools and sometimes seem nervous or irritable due to abdominal pain. Of course there are other conditions that could cause your dog's symptoms though. I would be visiting a good vet for a cTLI test (for EPI) plus full blood tests (complete blood count plus biochemistry) to check how her other organs are functioning. She might respond well to a commercial vet diet like Hills i/d or Royal Canin Gastro Low Fat (depending on the diagnosis) but it seems that finding the best possible diet always takes a bit of trial and error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I looked EPI up... http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/digestive_system/the_exocrine_pancreas/exocrine_pancreatic_insufficiency_in_small_animals.html I have 5 x 100 "Creon 10,000" pills I was offered by my GP after I had my gallbladder out (in case my pancreas got upset during settling after surgery)... never been opened. If your vet reckons they may be usable in dogs (and in particular Sarah), I'd be happy to send them to you. They are human medicine, but may be able to be used in dogs - they are derived from pig pancreas. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Thanks tons T, very kind - my research suggests that Creon is the only pancreatic enzyme for these dogs available in Australia - so yes I'd love them. I'll PM you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 The 5 bottles of Creon have a new home then... lol! Also replied to your PM... Hopefully the vet will give you a dosage regime to try and the tablets will help... and not cost you anything to test with... *grin* They aren't overly expensive in the grand scheme of things really. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) Thanks tons T - I'll discuss with the vet next week and go from there. I'll be surprised if it turns out to be anything else - she really looks pretty text book to me. Will post back when I have some news. Thanks again. In the meantime, I'd still be very interested to hear from anyone with a dog with EPI and how they managed? Edited February 14, 2015 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Enzyplex is also a suitable product I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Thanks cavNrot - yes it is - very interesting. Will do some research tomorrow. Thanks very much for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Gosh Westiemum, your dogs and mine are sure putting us through the wringer I wonder if it might be worth contacting the people Valbitz referred me to. It is still a battle with Danny but because of Valbitz's referral, I now have some product that Danny will eat all the time. I know that eating isn't Sarah's problem, but they might be able to recommend some of their dried goodies and probiotics which could take away her pain and discomfort. www.bmanimals.net.au Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Thanks DD - yes I am getting a bit weary with it all. I'm a raw feeder but if it will help Sarah I'm willing to get her a suitable dry food. DD I've had a quick look at their website and I see they do a duck and turkey variety whichj would be good for Sarah and the salmon and sardine would be good for Mac. How have you found it with Danny? I'm also wondering if some green tripe might help Sarah? Thoughts? TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Thanks DD - yes I am getting a bit weary with it all. I'm a raw feeder but if it will help Sarah I'm willing to get her a suitable dry food. DD I've had a quick look at their website and I see they do a duck and turkey variety whichj would be good for Sarah and the salmon and sardine would be good for Mac. How have you found it with Danny? I'm also wondering if some green tripe might help Sarah? Thoughts? TIA I used to be a raw feeder too, Westimum, but I guess like all things to do with stomachs of any creatures, age and illness bring on changes. Bunter is no yard stick as he will eat virtually anything that is called food, but when Jeune and Tamar will eat something straight off without carrying on as though it needs to go to the Royal Taster in case it is poisoned and then walking around it and sniffing with the greatest of suspicions, I reckon it must be okay. :laugh: Danny wasn't too keen on the green tripe medallions, and his BIGGEST FAVOURITE EVER is the chicken breast . In the past if I have tried to get him to eat anything in the mornings, he has totally turned his head away because he obviously wasn't feeling well, but this morning he has had some dried chicken breast and goat wafers. AND has kept it down. Until Valbitz put me onto these suppliers, I had reached the stage of not offering him anything before late afternoon because he would either refuse it, or if he did eat it, he would bring it up. Valbitz bought my latest supplies for me because my previous order took eleven days to arrive . She included some of the dried turkey (which her dog didn't like) and my dogs loved it. Another food Danny will eat - just a small amount - is the Natural Balance sensitivity kibble. Trinabean meantioned it in a thread when I was getting desparate and I had to google to find a vet who stocked it, but it was just in the next suburb and was well worth trying. Frankly, I know it is drummed into us that raw is best, but all things are general, specifics are more important where diet and health are concerned. Look at ActuallyAngela's thread where she has been trying to find a kibble which suits her dog with tummy problems. :laugh: Keep us informed. I hope that you have the good fortune I have had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) EPI could certainly be possible, it can cause all of those clinical signs and is frequently caused by chronic pancreatitis. Did she get tested for pancreatitis when she was diagnosed with HGE? Dogs with EPI usually have a ravenous appetite, profuse foul-smelling yellow or grey stools and sometimes seem nervous or irritable due to abdominal pain. Of course there are other conditions that could cause your dog's symptoms though. I would be visiting a good vet for a cTLI test (for EPI) plus full blood tests (complete blood count plus biochemistry) to check how her other organs are functioning. She might respond well to a commercial vet diet like Hills i/d or Royal Canin Gastro Low Fat (depending on the diagnosis) but it seems that finding the best possible diet always takes a bit of trial and error. Thanks tons brightstar123 - sorry I missed your post. I'll get Sarah back to the vet this week. At my regular vet there's a new vet who I've seen twice and I was impressed with the way she worked with me - and was very sensible - she actually understood the need to get Mac onto ABs very quickly if he's showing signs of AP. She gave me a small supply to tide me over until I can get him back to the vet when it happens again - and it will happen (he has an open airway after tie-back surgery) - I was impressed with her as its been a sticking point with other vets. I do understand why they are reluctant but I'll always advocate for what I think is best for my dog. And I'm not silly - I know when he shows signs of AP we need to get him to the vet - but it always seems to happen when the vet is closed - and in such an old dog hours can make a difference. . So I'll see if I can get an appointment with her and ask her about those tests. Thanks tons for your help. ETA Sarah's HGE was some years ago and I don't remember her being tested for pancreatitis. You know its funny... over the years we have queried pancreatitis on and off but its been really mild and intermittent so we've never really followed it up and she's always recovered quickly from whatever it was. And I must admit I've been suspicious for a long time that the HGE might have been the source of her 'tummy troubles' - she's always seemed to have a bit of a 'sensitive' tummy. Maybe it is all connected. Edited February 15, 2015 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackiemad Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I take creon, creon 30,000. Under the pbs it's only $35 for 2x 100 tablet bottles. I can't live without it and I get no side effects whatsoever :) not that it's relevant to Sarah, but I thought I'd add it in cos I usually suffer side effects from medication cos my system is so fragile Hopefully they help Sarah, poor little chicken. It sucks when your tummy aches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Thanks DD - yes I am getting a bit weary with it all. I'm a raw feeder but if it will help Sarah I'm willing to get her a suitable dry food. DD I've had a quick look at their website and I see they do a duck and turkey variety whichj would be good for Sarah and the salmon and sardine would be good for Mac. How have you found it with Danny? I'm also wondering if some green tripe might help Sarah? Thoughts? TIA I used to be a raw feeder too, Westimum, but I guess like all things to do with stomachs of any creatures, age and illness bring on changes. Bunter is no yard stick as he will eat virtually anything that is called food, but when Jeune and Tamar will eat something straight off without carrying on as though it needs to go to the Royal Taster in case it is poisoned and then walking around it and sniffing with the greatest of suspicions, I reckon it must be okay. :laugh: Danny wasn't too keen on the green tripe medallions, and his BIGGEST FAVOURITE EVER is the chicken breast . In the past if I have tried to get him to eat anything in the mornings, he has totally turned his head away because he obviously wasn't feeling well, but this morning he has had some dried chicken breast and goat wafers. AND has kept it down. Until Valbitz put me onto these suppliers, I had reached the stage of not offering him anything before late afternoon because he would either refuse it, or if he did eat it, he would bring it up. Valbitz bought my latest supplies for me because my previous order took eleven days to arrive . She included some of the dried turkey (which her dog didn't like) and my dogs loved it. Another food Danny will eat - just a small amount - is the Natural Balance sensitivity kibble. Trinabean meantioned it in a thread when I was getting desparate and I had to google to find a vet who stocked it, but it was just in the next suburb and was well worth trying. Frankly, I know it is drummed into us that raw is best, but all things are general, specifics are more important where diet and health are concerned. Look at ActuallyAngela's thread where she has been trying to find a kibble which suits her dog with tummy problems. :laugh: Keep us informed. I hope that you have the good fortune I have had. OK - have an appointment at the vet on Tuesday night. So I'll get her tested and go from there. Sarah has always had a bit of a dicky tummy so it will be good to get to the bottom of it - so to speak! Interesting that your order took a long time to arrive. I've just tried to use their contact form through their website - twice - and its not going through. So maybe they just need to improve their processes. And yes I think you're right - they do change with illness and age. Anyway before I do anything else I'll see the vet on Tuesday. Thanks all - this has been really helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 I take creon, creon 30,000. Under the pbs it's only $35 for 2x 100 tablet bottles. I can't live without it and I get no side effects whatsoever :) not that it's relevant to Sarah, but I thought I'd add it in cos I usually suffer side effects from medication cos my system is so fragile Hopefully they help Sarah, poor little chicken. It sucks when your tummy aches Thanks mackie - yes I had some experience with that myself in early January - and hell did my tummy hurt - and that sucked! I've always had pretty much a cast iron stomach so it all came as a bit of a shock. But interestingly nothing since. So i'm hoping it was a once off. And yes again now I've started connecting the dots I'd really like to get to the bottom of Sarah's tummy troubles. I hate the thought of her in pain - and I'm now feeling a bit guilty as this has been going on - off and on - for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Westiemum, you can phone them with an order. I don't know if they are open on Sundays, but John mentioned that Monday was their day off, so maybe they would be there today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Thanks DD - I'll see if I can get in touch with them - but I must admit I'm tempted to try the cheer Purina stuff first that was mentioned in Angela's thread!! I'll take her to the vet on Tuesday night and go from there. Thanks tons again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Thanks DD - I'll see if I can get in touch with them - but I must admit I'm tempted to try the cheer Purina stuff first that was mentioned in Angela's thread!! I'll take her to the vet on Tuesday night and go from there. Thanks tons again At $16 a bag, not much to lose and if it doesn't agree with Sarah and none of the other dogs like it or can tolerate it, you can give it to a neighbour :laugh: . I was doing the latter when I was trying to find something that Gussy Cat would eat a couple of years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Good excuse to introduce myself to the new neighbours! ('Here's some dog food - welcome to the neighbourhood'! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I ended up in hospital with pancreatitis once... and that was once too many! It hurts like no other pain on earth! I learned the true meaning of "writhing in pain"... and that enough morphine can actually help you sleep through anything! (tey gave me a LOT of morphine) I've had one pancreas turn since I had my gallbladder out, and that was 24 hours of discomfort... taught me not to pile salami on my lunch too thickly (I did have about 10 slices... errr!) T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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