Acceptable Play Between Pup And Older Dog

[Nushie]

So we picked up Brandy on Sunday morning. She is an adorable black bundle of pug cuteness and very smart. At only 8 weeks old she already knows how to go up the stairs (took Jager until 10-12weeks), to sit for treats (although we haven't associated the word with the action, she just knows that her butt has to be on the ground), and she is already going to be the back door when she needs to go out (we are still taking her out every hour but if she needs to go in between she will go and stand and wait at the door).

Jager was a little unsure of her to begin with but has since relaxed and will play with her. But I have some questions about Jager's play style. At the moment when I think they are getting to rough / Jager is bullying, I enforce a bit of a time out. Can you please let me know if the below is normal and if it isn't, how do I teach them not to do it?

1 Jager often brings a chew toy to Brandy and stands about 2 steps away from her, then she chases him and tries to grab it out of his mouth. When she gets bored and stops he will go back to her and start to chew it in front of her and she will chase him again. At the moment I haven't really been stopping it but the toys he tends to use are those nylabone type chew toys (we have stacks as Jager loves them) and I worry that it might cause some guarding issues. If Jager takes them to his crate then I make sure that she stays away so that he can chew in peace.

2 Play normally starts out pretty slow, a bit of paw waving at each other and play biting etc. However after a while Jager does get a little stirred up and will being head butting her, or push her into a corner or into our legs. So she ends up laying on the ground, generally cornered and Jager still bugging her/head butting her. We are stopping this by calling Jager off but generally as soon as he stops/looks away/walks away, she launches herself at him biting his neck and wanting to play again.

3 When she runs around like crazy puppies do, Jager was chasing her down and would bowl her over. He gets this prey look in his eye and for the first 2 days he would be fixated on her and even if we called him off he wouldn't be able to draw his attention off her even though he would stop playing with her, he would just stare at her. We have been breaking this by moving him out of sight of her and waiting for him to calm down again. He seems to reset until she starts running again. This has reduced the past couple of days and he will chase after her and then stop without bowling her over, and when we call him to back off, he will break his gaze on her and return to us. So I assume this is a good improvement.

As a side note, Jager will stop playing with her when she stops playing with him. So if they are playing and she gets distracted or starts chewing on a toy, he will stop and leave her alone. He also stops when we tell him to.

They are never alone unattended. She is in her pen when we aren't home or not supervising.

All food related toys etc are removed before she is allowed out of her pen. Jager gets his food in a Bob-a-lot and also gets stuffed kongs. These are put away in case they start arguments.

When Jager has had enough he will just jump onto the lounge to get away from her.

Jager generally plays really well with other dogs, but most of the dogs we know are larger than he is. I just want to make sure that we start off the best we can.

Photos below.

[Simply Grand]

Oh so cuuuuute! I know lots of people don't really enjoy the puppy stage but I LOVE bringing home a new baby and watching them grow into part of the family. I miss it

From the sounds of it you are all doing fantastically! As she grows they will sort out their standing with each other but as you've acknowledged it's really important that you remain ultimately in charge of everything for both of them. It doesn't sound from what you've said like Jager is bullying her, just figuring out to play with this little mini dog. Being a black female Pug I suspect once she's big enough she'll be giving more than as good as she gets.

With mine I generally let them go for it but I do practice interrupting them with a firm "Enough" cue when they are getting really rowdy so I can stop them if they are really getting OTT or being too noisy and annoying while I'm trying to watch tv :laugh: (so it's basically make some noise to interrupt them, get their attention on me and reward with something else like praise, cuddles or even treats, then practice something incompatible like sitting calmly for eat rubs).

As far as resource guarding goes, it's hard to stop a dog guarding from another dog if they are inclined too and mine will all protect their treasures in their own ways but again I stay in control of it, practicing physically standing between them and moving them away if one finishes their treat and goes towards another one to investigate their, practicing individual "give" so that I can take things off them if I need to etc etc

[BarbedWire]

Nushie, you may find this thread interesting

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/260399-a-new-puppy-advice-please/page__p__6597145__fromsearch__1#entry6597145

Edited February 5, 2015 by sarsaparilla

[BarbedWire]

Please I did not mean to stop this thread. :) The other thread I provided the link for is not quite the same issue. Please post and give the OP some advice.

[Nushie]

Nushie, you may find this thread interesting

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/260399-a-new-puppy-advice-please/page__p__6597145__fromsearch__1#entry6597145

This really helped me with 2 & 3 of my issues. Cause I do think it is bullying and will continue with stopping the play and time-outs.

But does anyone have any advice with number 1? Is he offering to play with her? When she catches him, he doesn't growl or anything, just runs in other direction and trying to get her to chase him? I just need to know if it is something that is playful and I should allow it or should I stop it and take the toy away?

[denali]

Nushie, you may find this thread interesting

http://www.dolforums..._1#entry6597145

This really helped me with 2 & 3 of my issues. Cause I do think it is bullying and will continue with stopping the play and time-outs.

But does anyone have any advice with number 1? Is he offering to play with her? When she catches him, he doesn't growl or anything, just runs in other direction and trying to get her to chase him? I just need to know if it is something that is playful and I should allow it or should I stop it and take the toy away?

Mine do this same thing- i have never thought of it as bad. Just as a chasey game- Deniki loves to chase and Kokoda loves to run haha

He will sometimes catch and tug for a bit before the rounds start again.

So i think it's ok, that is- if it is how my boys play- but from reading it sounds like it is harmless.

[Nushie]

Nushie, you may find this thread interesting

http://www.dolforums..._1#entry6597145

This really helped me with 2 & 3 of my issues. Cause I do think it is bullying and will continue with stopping the play and time-outs.

But does anyone have any advice with number 1? Is he offering to play with her? When she catches him, he doesn't growl or anything, just runs in other direction and trying to get her to chase him? I just need to know if it is something that is playful and I should allow it or should I stop it and take the toy away?

Mine do this same thing- i have never thought of it as bad. Just as a chasey game- Deniki loves to chase and Kokoda loves to run haha

He will sometimes catch and tug for a bit before the rounds start again.

So i think it's ok, that is- if it is how my boys play- but from reading it sounds like it is harmless.

Thanks so much. I assumed it was harmless. It is a game that Jager plays with my other half, generally steals a sock that he is trying to put on and runs away with it and then comes back, just out of snatching reach and then bolts off again with the other half grabs for it. They both love it and end up doing laps around the lounge.

[sandgrubber]

I wouldn't worry about any of the behaviors you have described.

I would worry about a baby puppy on stairs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22620698

Pugs often have bacly constructed hips (see OFA statistics). You don't want to push it.

[Nushie]

I wouldn't worry about any of the behaviors you have described.

I would worry about a baby puppy on stairs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22620698

Pugs often have bacly constructed hips (see OFA statistics). You don't want to push it.

By stairs I didn't mean a whole flight. It is just the 2 steps that separate the lounge/kitchen from the rest of the house. But thank you. I will indeed read up on that.

[YOLO]

Whether we like it or not, dogs tend to develop a "pecking order." The intricacies of this can vary, and it is usually arrived at by mutual consent. ie Each dog decides what they are prepared to put up with. This doesn't have to mean that either dog is particularly dominant, they will decide what they want and what they can tolerate.

Jasper is our older dog. He insists on being first out the door, and Chloe allows this. If he thinks she is the way, he will lick her face until she butts out. She will tolerate the licking for a while, then move. When they play, generally she will rollover, although sometimes they BOTH lie down.

They will compete in fetch (they ARE retrievers) but won't fight over a toy.

It's ok to MODERATE your dogs behaviour, but be very careful that you're not punishing the older dog. He IS senior, that is the way of things, and he WILL push the pup around until their roles are established.

The first issue sounds like simple chasey. Some dogs seem to do it. I discourage it because our dogs are meant to retrieve, NOT "keep" and be chased! LOL

But I think it is basically harmless.

They key phrase for mine is

Jager will stop playing with her when she stops playing with him. So if they are playing and she gets distracted or starts chewing on a toy, he will stop and leave her alone.

That he stops indicates its not bullying.

Sometimes, when Japser and Chloe get a bit TOO excited, I will simply say "play nice you two" and they pay attention to me and settle down for a bit. I only do it because they like nibbling on each other's ears, and like a doting parent I worry that one day they may actually scratch each other.

It's very important that you're not constantly saying "Jager NO," or "Jager STOP." He will think that he is being punished (and he already feels "put out" by the interloper.)

SOME older dogs do get very annoyed by new pups, and even gentle placid dogs have been known to harm (and even kill) young puppies. So you are right to be careful and watchful.

However its my opinion that any such severe annoyance would manifest quickly, and that provided the rough-housing remains good-natured, you should not do too much to interfere.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Big D

[Nushie]

Whether we like it or not, dogs tend to develop a "pecking order." The intricacies of this can vary, and it is usually arrived at by mutual consent. ie Each dog decides what they are prepared to put up with. This doesn't have to mean that either dog is particularly dominant, they will decide what they want and what they can tolerate.

Jasper is our older dog. He insists on being first out the door, and Chloe allows this. If he thinks she is the way, he will lick her face until she butts out. She will tolerate the licking for a while, then move. When they play, generally she will rollover, although sometimes they BOTH lie down.

They will compete in fetch (they ARE retrievers) but won't fight over a toy.

It's ok to MODERATE your dogs behaviour, but be very careful that you're not punishing the older dog. He IS senior, that is the way of things, and he WILL push the pup around until their roles are established.

The first issue sounds like simple chasey. Some dogs seem to do it. I discourage it because our dogs are meant to retrieve, NOT "keep" and be chased! LOL

But I think it is basically harmless.

They key phrase for mine is

Jager will stop playing with her when she stops playing with him. So if they are playing and she gets distracted or starts chewing on a toy, he will stop and leave her alone.

That he stops indicates its not bullying.

Sometimes, when Japser and Chloe get a bit TOO excited, I will simply say "play nice you two" and they pay attention to me and settle down for a bit. I only do it because they like nibbling on each other's ears, and like a doting parent I worry that one day they may actually scratch each other.

It's very important that you're not constantly saying "Jager NO," or "Jager STOP." He will think that he is being punished (and he already feels "put out" by the interloper.)

SOME older dogs do get very annoyed by new pups, and even gentle placid dogs have been known to harm (and even kill) young puppies. So you are right to be careful and watchful.

However its my opinion that any such severe annoyance would manifest quickly, and that provided the rough-housing remains good-natured, you should not do too much to interfere.

Thanks for all of this. It is very helpful and I agree, I have been trying not to constantly keep saying "Jager NO," or "Jager STOP" etc. They have been pretty good this weekend. And if it gets to loud and annoying I have just been calling them both to me. Brandy seems to have just learnt her name and will spin around to me when call her. They both get a treat for coming and sitting. And that seems to calm them down, even if they then go back to play, it seems more sedate. I think we are sorting it all out!

[newfsie]

I do not interevere with play , unless it is too rough for the puppy and I take the puppy away or i say quiet, which my older dogs have learned means to slow down. i am only worried about injuries during rough play. I allow my older dogs to sort out the puppies if it is about toys or food. i find a lot of young dogs are too bombastic as we allow them to be the little treasures. As long at is only grumping and telling off, it is allowed at my place. it puts things back in order........My young dogs are very polite around other dogs and greet stranger dogs politley, because they have had the older dogs in our lot tell them off. I would not allow andy attacks, but i allow telling off. Our BC cross has raised a lot of newfoundland puppies and she is quite firm with them, but also plays with them, until they get too rough or pushy and she tells them off. She is quite old now and we get a lot of younger dogs through, both from Rescue and we own six.

I suppose it does depend a little on how social your older dogs is, but he sounds like he is trying to be quite friendly. i feel it is OK if an older dog growls at a puppy if it goes near his/her food, but i will not allow lunging..growling is warning, i remove the puppy, if it does not move away. Stop the growling by punisheing the dogs that growls and you will get a dog that lunges without warning......that is a real problem. growling is good or even expression :)

I think we often interfere too much and that is why we get the pushy young dogs that think they own the world (just like some kids today).....i love the way my pack works, quite firm, but a lot of play, if it is appropriate. I love watching them........Would never allow a real fight, but I think that often happens because we do interfere and do not allow the natural order.

It is totally different when you bring a adult into a established pack, but i would never worry about a puppy in mine. And I have had many different packs over the years.....Bringing in a badly socialised older dog with attitude requires a totally different system, I get a lot more involved, but it is usually the new dogs that goes into time-out, never my established pack.they know what they are doing and take direction easlily and are very social.

Good book/video to read/watch are from Turid Rugaas.since i found her about 9 years ago, life with a pack of dogs has been easy

Edited February 9, 2015 by newfsie