Puppy School = Barking School?

[davecol]

Hello, great forum and site, I have learned a lot looking through old posts.

I have a question I'm hoping someone can set my mind at ease.

We took our new puppy to puppy school for the first time and one of the dogs was a very full-on barker, deafeningly so.

Since then I do think our girl is barking and whining more than she was (which previously was hardly at all). I'm worried she is learning to misbehave from this other dog.

Is that possible? I'm thinking of not going back if it's going to teach her to misbehave. I'm not sure we'll get much from puppy school anyway. It sounds as if the training I've done in the week and a half we've had her (just from books-come, sit, come/sit at side, heel) takes us through to about week 3 of 4 of puppy school anyway. And she gets her second shot next week so can socialise in public anyway. The Science Diet / yearly vax hard sell doesn't go down well with me either.

If there's one thing that made me resist getting a dog for a long time, it was the neighbours' annoying dogs who bark all day while left home alone (just like I bet this puppy does). So the last thing I want is for our gorgeous girl to turn into one of those.

[Loving my Oldies]

Depends so much on the person running these classes. Some dogs do very quickly learn bad habits.

From what I have read (never experienced first hand) puppy classes are more for socialisation and getting used to other dogs, as well as starting to learn to obey orders when there are plenty of distractions around.

I'd give it another go, and if barking dog is still there, leave - but tell the person taking the class why.

[The Spotted Devil]

I take puppy classes and I agree that it does depend on who is running the class. I do teach a lot of behaviours but if someone has a puppy or dog with a particular problem (barking, nipping etc) I will get them to primarily concentrate on breaking that habit whilst everyone else continues to play the learning games. Yes, pups can learn habits around other dogs but it also may suggest that your pup has a predisposition to barking when highly aroused - a good puppy class will help you to understand that too and give you some tools for working on it. If I have folks in class that have done a lot of training already I just get them to take it to the next level :)

[davecol]

Well tonight has been a nightmare with barking at the kids and refusing to sit even for a meal... a half hour stand off before she finally sat when asked and was quiet for 10 seconds to get her meal... so I think my mind is made up!

[Cosmolo]

I doubt very much that observing the other puppy in one context is creating problems in a completely different context, especially after one session.

In saying that well run puppy classes are there to improve the behaviour of all the puppies in the group so the instructor should be able to effectively manage the barking puppy situation.

[Stressmagnet]

IMNSHO, puppy classes = waste of time.

If you are good with dogs, you can teach them the basics, socialise them in a controlled manner with solid older dogs and take them around and about -- then enrol the pup in an 'advanced puppy class' at around 5-6 months. Usually the one in those classes have owners with pups they've spent some time on, so the puppies are slightly better behaved.

Of course, that's just my exoerience with the pups I've owned on the coast (AmStaff and Lab). You will still get nonsense in the class, but advanced usually means better behaved.

Not always though.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Stressmagnet

[LisaCC]

I do think puppy classes can be useful for socialising wihtout interacting with other dogs, and great for new dog owners, but so many are shit. I avoid ones ran by vets as the "trainers" normally don't know much about dog behaviour anyway.

If you aren't happy with this puppy school, but are having behaviour issues I would suggest seeking out a private trainer in your area that holds puppy/beginner courses and can work on you and your puppy and its problems not just following a basic curriculum that assumes all puppies are the same.

I'm sure you will get some recommendations if you post your general whereabouts :)

[Loving my Oldies]

Well tonight has been a nightmare with barking at the kids and refusing to sit even for a meal... a half hour stand off before she finally sat when asked and was quiet for 10 seconds to get her meal... so I think my mind is made up!

I think perhaps a bit more is going on here than whatever happened at puppy school.

Perhaps talk to a trainer - get advice from someone in your area (or from DOLers) because a lot of "trainers" would have difficulty telling the back end of a dog from the front. Terrible exaggeration, of course, but from what I read and see on my countless walks, some horrors are really being visited upon people who only want to do the best for their dogs.

[BarbedWire]

Personally I complain when dogs bark in class as I then can't hear what is being said. (I have a hearing impairment.) I do know it can be difficult to stop but if nothing is being done about it I would be asking for a refund. I also think dogs with a barking tendency learn to bark from other dogs.

[Loving my Oldies]

Oh, and having read your post again, remember your dog is a puppy and her attention span is very short. Don't spend 1/2 hour trying to get her to do what you want. Just stop, ignore and come back to it a little while later.

For example, you don't tell a dog 20 times to sit. All it is learning is to listen for 20 times LOL.

[davecol]

Thank you all for the comments. I don't think she has behavioural problems - we just wanted puppy school for socialisation, advice and learning how to train her. I won't say where I am as I don't want to hurt the feelings of the lady who was running it who was friendly and obviously just doing what she thought best. (Especially seeing as I might persist with it... doubtful but you never know)

Oh, and having read your post again, remember your dog is a puppy and her attention span is very short. Don't spend 1/2 hour trying to get her to do what you want. Just stop, ignore and come back to it a little while later.

For example, you don't tell a dog 20 times to sit. All it is learning is to listen for 20 times LOL.

Yeah, basically every time she barked or jumped or wouldn't sit I would leave the room (saying "shoosh" if she was barking) then ignored her for however long it took until the noise let up for 10-20 seconds of quiet, then would approach, say "good girl/good shoosh/good girl" (occasionally give a tidbit of food if she kept quiet for longer than average) and try the routine again. Does that sound OK? She's been a little darling this morning but maybe that's more luck than anything!

Edited February 4, 2015 by davecol

[sunny1shine]

we've just finished 5 weeks puppy school with our second dog. We go for the socialisation factor and cause puppies are cute.

The place we used had a largish class around 10 pups and there was lots of barking. The person running the session seemed to do their best by rolling toys towards the barking dogs or scattering treats and the owners were not really doing anything to distract their pups from barking and re-direct their energy. We used it to our advantage rewarding our pup for focussing on me, or for sitting quietly with a toy (which is really what the other owners should be doing).

I've never agreed 100% with anything the people running puppy school say regarding feeding, training etc. But as long as they are good at picking up on which pups should be kept separate and not let off leash with other dogs I get something positive from the experience

[Cosmolo]

Good puppy school's are NOT a waste of time. Criticising all puppy schools based on a handful of experiences is like saying all small dogs are aggressive because you've seen a few that are. Avoiding ones at vets may be a bit of a false sense of security too. Plenty of qualified, quality trainers run classes at vets and there are plenty of unqualified people running classes lacking in quality at a variety of locations including pet stores, parks, private residences etc.

By all means research your trainer/ puppy school choices- everyone should. But try not to bag out a whole industry/ whole group of people/ type of class based on a few dodgy experiences.

davecol i would set up your training sessions a little differently so that the pup is highly motivated to do what you want and you can start to build reinforcement history. The problem with the approach that you describe is that it limits the number of repetitions you can do, takes a longer period of time and doesn't really make it clear enough to the pup what you want from them as they're still bouncing around having fun when they ignore you.

[LisaCC]

1423009641[/url]' post='6641938']

Thank you all for the comments. I don't think she has behavioural problems - we just wanted puppy school for socialisation, advice and learning how to train her. I won't say where I am as I don't want to hurt the feelings of the lady who was running it who was friendly and obviously just doing what she thought best. (Especially seeing as I might persist with it... doubtful but you never know)

1423002630[/url]' post='6641857']

Oh, and having read your post again, remember your dog is a puppy and her attention span is very short. Don't spend 1/2 hour trying to get her to do what you want. Just stop, ignore and come back to it a little while later.

For example, you don't tell a dog 20 times to sit. All it is learning is to listen for 20 times LOL.

Yeah, basically every time she barked or jumped or wouldn't sit I would leave the room (saying "shoosh" if she was barking) then ignored her for however long it took until the noise let up for 10-20 seconds of quiet, then would approach, say "good girl/good shoosh/good girl" (occasionally give a tidbit of food if she kept quiet for longer than average) and try the routine again. Does that sound OK? She's been a little darling this morning but maybe that's more luck than anything!

That's a great reason to go to a puppy's school too! But again, you do need to find an appropriate one.

Your profile says Victoria. There are a few trainers here on DOL in VIC perhaps if one pops into this thread they can PM you about an appropriate training class/ one on one.

I personally would be using a higher reward rate when she's good. A good puppy school/ trainer would also be able to help you with basic manners and house training like this too :)

[Brookestar]

Good puppy school's are NOT a waste of time. Criticising all puppy schools based on a handful of experiences is like saying all small dogs are aggressive because you've seen a few that are. Avoiding ones at vets may be a bit of a false sense of security too. Plenty of qualified, quality trainers run classes at vets and there are plenty of unqualified people running classes lacking in quality at a variety of locations including pet stores, parks, private residences etc.

By all means research your trainer/ puppy school choices- everyone should. But try not to bag out a whole industry/ whole group of people/ type of class based on a few dodgy experiences.

davecol i would set up your training sessions a little differently so that the pup is highly motivated to do what you want and you can start to build reinforcement history. The problem with the approach that you describe is that it limits the number of repetitions you can do, takes a longer period of time and doesn't really make it clear enough to the pup what you want from them as they're still bouncing around having fun when they ignore you.

Agreed totally. GOOD puppy schools are one of the best things you can do for a puppy. The two best ones in my area are run in vet clinics, not by staff but by very highly qualified trainers. I have seen some horrible ones in vet clinics, also seen some horrible ones at pet stores, and also seen brilliant ones in pet stores as well. People need to research the trainers and actually go and watch some classes in action, to see how they control the dogs, what advice they are giving and what is being done.

A dog barking continuously is not helping the individual dog or anyone else to learn. If nothing is working, then one would be getting the handler to take the dog outside, move them away from what is going on. A good trainer should be able to work out why the dog is barking and what needs to be done o calm them down.

Anyone can teach a dog to sit, drop, come when called in a quiet environment at home. Teaching them self control, teaching them to focus when other things are going on around them, teaching them to self calm, is a totally different thing. Any half decent dog trainer will be focussing on those things.

[alpha bet]

A good puppy school is worth every penny you spend. They can help you avoid bad habits and build your pup's social skills which allows him to deal with so many different situations and build both of your ability to work with distractions

But I agree with the above comments, you are best to find one with a dog trainer, not just one being run by a clinic or pet shop where can often be little more than a marketing ploy for building the clinic/wharehouse sales.

Barking should not really be happening much thru classes - if a dogs mouth is going (i.e. barking, mouthing etc) then his brain is not... a good class aims to turn the dog (and humans) brain on.

Find a trainer where there is ongoing classes which will allow you to build you and your dogs relationship past the basic puppy stage.

Good luck