TheCheekyMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 A friend of mine, her dog has been suffering seizures it has happened three times now, does anyone know what she should do or is there a Vet in Sydney which is experienced in this field or is there any tests she should get done? any suggestions or advice would be great thanks in advanced. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Has she been to a vet at all? I think most vets have seen/treated dogs who have seizures - and her dog's normal vet would be my suggestion as a first step , as they would know the dog best . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightstar123 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Yes a good general practice vet can deal with this. At a minimum the dog should have a physical and neurological exam plus full blood tests. Possibly also fasting blood glucose or liver function tests depending on the situation. It may well be epilepsy but it could also be due to toxins, infectious disease, liver disease, cancer etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) Also get the thyroid tested. Latest stats are that 77% of dogs with a seizure disorder are hypothyroid, but it is not something that most vets know to test for. You usually have to ask. Jean Dodds in the US does a full thyroid panel including the test for autoimmune thyroiditis (which can't be tested in Aus) and it works out cheaper to send the blood to her for the whole lot than to get the tests done in Aus. Edited February 2, 2015 by DeltaCharlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbedWire Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 The thought of a dog having seizures used to alarm me but now that I own one who is probably now officially an epileptic it doesn't worry me too much. Her first seizure (around 18 months of age) I denied and put down to her eating something that didn't agree with her, but then when more came especially one big one where, suspecting that she had been poisoned, I put her in the car and drove like a madwoman to the vet, but by the time I got there it was all over. She has had a blood test done (not sure what for. I tend to rely on my vets) and it was all normal. I now just keep a record of when she has seizures, or the ones I notice anyway, and how long they last for and if they last more than a few minutes or become more frequent there is a medication that the vet can prescribe, (forget the name), but it needs to be given at the same time each day and she would need monthly blood tests. I am reluctant to put her on this because she has a vet phobia, and really I can live with the seizures which probably bother me more than her. I just keep her safe while they are happening and tell her I love her afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Thank you guys ill pass this on. No i dont think she has taken her to the vet yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 DeltaCharlie I still have got to organise our paper work for this. We are going away for 5 weeks so I'll have to do this when I get back. Very interested in seeing the results actually. 77% amazing stats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Also get the thyroid tested. Latest stats are that 77% of dogs with a seizure disorder are hypothyroid, but it is not something that most vets know to test for. You usually have to ask. Jean Dodds in the US does a full thyroid panel including the test for autoimmune thyroiditis (which can't be tested in Aus) and it works out cheaper to send the blood to her for the whole lot than to get the tests done in Aus. +1 This is one of the first things I would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbesotted Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Also get the thyroid tested. Latest stats are that 77% of dogs with a seizure disorder are hypothyroid, but it is not something that most vets know to test for. You usually have to ask. Jean Dodds in the US does a full thyroid panel including the test for autoimmune thyroiditis (which can't be tested in Aus) and it works out cheaper to send the blood to her for the whole lot than to get the tests done in Aus. +1 This is one of the first things I would do. +3 definitely the way to go. also check out this site..chock full of information and assistance. they have an excellent reputation. http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/site_map.htm Helen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have a 10 yr old epileptic who gets mild focal seizures. This started about four years ago. She does fine on a very very low dose of phenobarbitol. She has always tested clean for everything, but she will seize if I take her off her meds. 'Seizures' covers a lot of ground. Everything from a fixed stare that lasts a minute or so to a full grand mal seizure complete with snapping and incontenence; and from once in a lifetime to clusters that become more and more frequent and end up happening several times a day. Cause is generally hard to diagnose unless it's an obvious poisoning case. If it's epilepsy, blood tests won't show anything. If the problem isn't immediately critical (some seizures are so severe they can kill) the first thing to do is observe closely. Time the seizure and note dates. Take video. Note anything that may have happened to cause seizure (flea treatment, eating odd stuff, etc.) If seizures are infrequent (less than once a month) and not so severe that you're really freaked out, many vets end out recommending doing nothing but observe. Usually the seizure has passed by the time you get to the vet, so all they can do is run tests. The more info you can provide them and the more experience they have had with neorological problems the better. You can do tests up the yin yang and find nothing. Epilepsy is often called ideopathic epilepsy . . . meaning cause unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have a 10 yr old epileptic who gets mild focal seizures. This started about four years ago. She does fine on a very very low dose of phenobarbitol. She has always tested clean for everything, but she will seize if I take her off her meds. 'Seizures' covers a lot of ground. Everything from a fixed stare that lasts a minute or so to a full grand mal seizure complete with snapping and incontenence; and from once in a lifetime to clusters that become more and more frequent and end up happening several times a day. Cause is generally hard to diagnose unless it's an obvious poisoning case. If it's epilepsy, blood tests won't show anything. If the problem isn't immediately critical (some seizures are so severe they can kill) the first thing to do is observe closely. Time the seizure and note dates. Take video. Note anything that may have happened to cause seizure (flea treatment, eating odd stuff, etc.) If seizures are infrequent (less than once a month) and not so severe that you're really freaked out, many vets end out recommending doing nothing but observe. Usually the seizure has passed by the time you get to the vet, so all they can do is run tests. The more info you can provide them and the more experience they have had with neorological problems the better. You can do tests up the yin yang and find nothing. Epilepsy is often called ideopathic epilepsy . . . meaning cause unknown. Idiot Dog has the same sort of seizures and also seems to do very well on the phenobarb, although a fairly high dose because we were having the odd breakthrough seizure. Interestingly, not only were his bloods normal, they were actually really good. On paper, he's healthy as a horse but he's very much reliant on the phenobarb. Personally, I wouldn't be bothering with stuff like thyroid testing (no offense to the Jean Dodds fans) but checking for the obvious stuff like a portosystemic shunt or underlying infection. Some causes of seizure can be treated so it's worth getting the dog to a vet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Zig had a few seizure type episodes and they are scary. I was given valium to begin with. If he had 3 close together (within a six month period - I think, not sure now), then he would have to go onto epilepsy medication for his life. Lucky for us, he seems to have outgrown them. I hope your friend gets the dog some help, it needs to be treated (and hopefully her dog will outgrow them as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I am curious, why would you not bother with a simple test that could provide answers to so many questions and symptoms? Given that research suggests such a high number of fitting dogs with thyroid issues (which is not a standard pre-breeding test in most breeds) I would be testing that first. I don't know the stats of fitting dogs with shunts or infections but can't imagine they would be as high as 77%. If they were people wouldn't even refer to "epilepsy" as the majority of them would have a diagnosis and only 23% would be idiopathic, less once you take out the brain tumours, dogs with severe allergies (i know of a dog who seized whenever he ate lamb), skull malformations, brain injuries etc. I think the key is to test for as much as you can, starting at the most common causes and working your way down (within your means of course, not everyone can afford an mri or ct to rule out tumours and malformed skulls etc). Having a dog with a severe seizure disorder is not fun, and you do everything you can to find answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I am curious, why would you not bother with a simple test that could provide answers to so many questions and symptoms? Given that research suggests such a high number of fitting dogs with thyroid issues (which is not a standard pre-breeding test in most breeds) I would be testing that first. I don't know the stats of fitting dogs with shunts or infections but can't imagine they would be as high as 77%. If they were people wouldn't even refer to "epilepsy" as the majority of them would have a diagnosis and only 23% would be idiopathic, less once you take out the brain tumours, dogs with severe allergies (i know of a dog who seized whenever he ate lamb), skull malformations, brain injuries etc. I think the key is to test for as much as you can, starting at the most common causes and working your way down (within your means of course, not everyone can afford an mri or ct to rule out tumours and malformed skulls etc). Having a dog with a severe seizure disorder is not fun, and you do everything you can to find answers. I'll be blunt about it- I think Jean Dodds is a quack. Whatever good she may have done in the past, she now just pushes her own product. And that's fine but when someone has commercial interests in a type of testing (or product), their ability to remain unbiased and objective is compromised. Bruce Syme is another, although at least he just pushes expensive calf museli, rather than diagnostics. Then there's the fairly relevant issue of medication- some epilepsy medications cause the hypothyroidism in humans. Jean Dodds, however, is fairly vague about the facts because suggesting seizures or epilepsy are a symptom of hypothyroidism just broadens her own market. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10461631 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Fair enough :) I only suggested her as she is cheapest. There is also a lab in the UK that will do the autoimmune thyroiditis test. Interestingly enough the vet who initially suggested the thyroid testing is not a fan of Jean Dodds either, however, thyroid function is a contributing factor in seizures and cannot be ignored. The t4/free t4 levels can be tested in Australia, but it costs about the same as the whole package at Jean Dodds. Autoimmune Thyroiditis can appear in dogs that have normal t4 levels and mimics the symptoms of hypothyroidism so if the dog comes back ad normal that test then needs to be run, easier to get it all done at once. Phenobarb can lower the t4 levels and give a false reading, however it gas no impact on the free t4 levels so it is still possible to get an accurate diagnosis. It is one if the reasons why I would test thyroid function first though, because then the blood is taken before any anticonvulsants are in the system, so it becomes a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Fair enough :) I only suggested her as she is cheapest. There is also a lab in the UK that will do the autoimmune thyroiditis test. Interestingly enough the vet who initially suggested the thyroid testing is not a fan of Jean Dodds either, however, thyroid function is a contributing factor in seizures and cannot be ignored. The t4/free t4 levels can be tested in Australia, but it costs about the same as the whole package at Jean Dodds. Autoimmune Thyroiditis can appear in dogs that have normal t4 levels and mimics the symptoms of hypothyroidism so if the dog comes back ad normal that test then needs to be run, easier to get it all done at once. Phenobarb can lower the t4 levels and give a false reading, however it gas no impact on the free t4 levels so it is still possible to get an accurate diagnosis. It is one if the reasons why I would test thyroid function first though, because then the blood is taken before any anticonvulsants are in the system, so it becomes a non-issue. Can you provide links to some studies that confirm this? Everything I've read suggests hypothyroidism does not contribute to seizures and in hyperthyroidism, it is very rare- with the recommendation that thyroid testing be done after all other avenues have been explored. If someone has done studies that prove seizures in dogs can be controlled 77% of the time with thyroid medication, I'd be very interested in seeing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I have no internet at the moment (telstra promises they will investigate by the 19th of Feb...) only my phone, but I will see what I can do. I know I have read studies on it, I just need to locate them :) The statement about 77% of seizuring dogs tested being hypothyroid is just that. No mention of them being controlled by thyroxine alone so not sure where that stat came from. Some dogs can be controlled with thyroxine and no need for anticonvulsants, others may need a lower dose of it. It would be a pretty useless stat though as every dog is different and will respond differently. What good would it do an owner to know that a certain % of dogs no longer require anticonvulsants but they are unlucky and still do? I think in that respect you would take each case on it's own merits and go from there. One thing I will say though is that thyroxine is no where near as harmful to the body long term as something like phenobarb, so even if it cannot be weaned off completely, if that dose can be lowered as a result of taking thyroxine as well then it can only be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The only information I can find all leads back to Jean Dodds so yeah, I'm very skeptical. The statement about 77% of seizuring dogs tested being hypothyroid is just that. No mention of them being controlled by thyroxine alone so not sure where that stat came from. Exactly. 77% of tested dogs being hypothyroid (probably from the medication) does not suggest that hypothyroidism causes seizures or that thyroxine is going to be of any benefit. You have a correlation that is explained by a medication involved and nothing I can find suggests any causation. As an aside.. here is a list of symptoms/disorders jean Dodds attributes to hypothyroidism: Weakness, stiffness, laryngeal paralysis, facial paralysis, tragic expression, knuckling or dragging feet, muscle wasting, megaesophagus, head tilt, drooping eyelids, seizures, mental dullness, exercise intolerance, neurologic signs, polyneuropathy, lethargy, weight gain, cold intolerance, mood swings, hyperexcitability, stunted growth, chronic infections, dry/scaly skin and dandruff, coarse/dull coat, bilateral symmetrical hair loss, rat tail, puppy coat, hyperpigmentation, seborrhea or greasy skin, pyoderma or skin infections, myxedema, chronic offensive skin odor, infertility of either sex, lack of libido, testicular atrophy, hypospermia aspermia, prolonged interestrus interval, absence of heat cycles, silent heats, pseudopregnancy, weak, dying or stillborn pups, slow heart rate (bradycardia), cardiac arrhythmias, cardiomyopathys, constipation, diarrhea, vomiting, bleeding, bone marrow failure, low red blood cells, low white blood cells, low platelets, corneal lipid deposits, corneal ulceration, uveitis Keratococonjunctivitis, sicca or dry eye, infections of eyelid glands, lgA deficiency, loss of smell (dysosmia), loss of taste, glycosuria, chronic active hepatitis, other endocrinopathies adrenal, pancreatic, parathyroid. Just about every vague or common symptom you can think of. The majority of these things would have likely causes elsewhere but by listing every common complaint she can think of as being something possibly linked to hypothyroidism, she's just created herself a huge market of dogs that "should" be tested. I doubt I'm going to change the minds of any Jean Dodds believers here but hopefully, other people who are considering wasting their money (or risking their dog's health based on her recommendations) will think very carefully before they do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightstar123 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 In my experience central nervous system deficits (which could cause seizures) due to hypothyroidism are very rare in dogs (with the exception of myxedema coma). Peripheral nervous system problems like laryngeal paralysis, facial paralysis and vestibular syndromes do seem slightly more commonly observed. This seems to be supported by recent research. As far as I understand, phenobarbitone can suppress both total T4 and free T4 (equilibrium dialysis). This doesn't mean that a dog on phenobarb with low TT4 and FT4 is hypothyroid, it can be clinically normal. TT4 and FT4 will usually normalise 1-4 weeks after discontinuing treatment with phenobarb. Hypothyroidism is a common disease but it is also hugely over diagnosed, due to the difficulties interpreting the range of diagnostic tests available and the sometimes vague clinical signs. In the case of seizures, I think it would be little illogical to overlook all the more common causes such as liver disease, low blood glucose/calcium, toxins, infectious diseases, epilepsy, tumours etc and suspect thyroid disease. If the more common causes had been ruled out then thyroid testing could be performed, particularly if the dog showed other much more common clinical signs of hypothyroidism such as skin abnormalities. Generally you want your vet to follow a logical diagnostic process when they spend your money, after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 You are all gems thank you love it when you get so much information on this forum it really does help to give people their next course of action. Well she took a video of it and saw the vet, they will be getting blood test I did mention to her the thyroid whether or not she does it Im not sure. Its only happened once and apparently exactly a month ago and same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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