Sudden Aggression Towards Dogs (large Breed)

[Montana]

I think you guys have misinterpreted me saying correcting the problem. A friend with similar experience advised we should give him treats in the presence of the other dogs to let him know it's ok. I didn't mean correcting as in telling him off. I only use positive based training.

I also understand that some dogs aren't interested in being socialble however he always has enjoyed bein in the presence of other dogs and this was really out of character for him I'm not to sure what has caused it.

I don't mind not taking him to dog parks. But we are starting group obedience again in the coming week and I worry how much attention I will get from him with other dogs around. Hence why I asked for opinions and suggestions.

[Montana]

he may have had a fright - and now, he is making his views know first !

I hope the person you consult is experienced and useful :)

Thank you I hope so to :)

[persephone]

That's where this forum is so good :) you can ask for recommendations for anyone from a pet sitter, to a maker of special collars, to a behaviourist , and SOME-ONE will know! Love it :)

[Salukifan]

I think you guys have misinterpreted me saying correcting the problem. A friend with similar experience advised we should give him treats in the presence of the other dogs to let him know it's ok. I didn't mean correcting as in telling him off. I only use positive based training.

I also understand that some dogs aren't interested in being socialble however he always has enjoyed bein in the presence of other dogs and this was really out of character for him I'm not to sure what has caused it.

I don't mind not taking him to dog parks. But we are starting group obedience again in the coming week and I worry how much attention I will get from him with other dogs around. Hence why I asked for opinions and suggestions.

Your former baby puppy is now an adolescent. His reaction to dogs and their reactions to him are changing. What happened then will be different now. From the "play" picture you posted, he's been quite submissive with the big dogs. That's very appropriate behaviour from a baby puppy but maybe he feels like that isn't working for him anymore.

Some of the wild barking you are seeing with other dogs around can also be sheer excitement. I think this is best sorted out with someone experienced which is what you've decided to do. :)

[Dogsfevr]

What is the temp on the parents like ,a number of the White Swiss i see at shows have very poor natures ,spooky,reactive

[Montana]

Parent's seemed good around each other and the puppies and towards people. We don't have a problem at all towards people, sometimes he's a bit unsure but 99% he'll let anyone handle him. His dad was calm when we came into the home aswell, he was asking to play fetch and was later on his dog bed with their pet chicken.. Which really sold the puppy to us because I have rabbits and they seemed really calm.

[Jemmy]

Re: the exercising. My girl has been spooked by a few encounters where off lead dogs have rushed us, etc. We walk in off peak times, I will drive her to new areas so she can get a good sniff in because she loves to smell things.

I pick long straight streets so I can see if someone is coming, if they are I have an emergency u-turn, and go down a side street until they've passed. We're working with a trainer and she's made great progress, but I make sure I set her up for success by giving her more distance from strange dogs on walks than I would expect from her at training. For example at training she can walk less than 5m distance away from another dog with no reaction at all. On a walk I give her more space than that as its not a time to push the boundaries.

I also do lots of trick training - asking her to touch to break her stare (my girls first reaction is a stare, and will then escalate to a bark)

Good luck!

Edited February 2, 2015 by Jemmy

[Montana]

Jemmy that sounds a lot like my boy, starting with the stare but i also try to break it!

Thank you, giving me some hope :)

[Jemmy]

My trainer gave me a tip that if I'm desperate to break a stare, throw the treat across your dog's line of sight. I also carry our favourite tug in my walking bag, use that to get our u-turn done, then once at a safe distance reward with the game of tug. Breaking the stare seems to be critical with my girl.

[The Spotted Devil]

Yes that's why I love LAT - under threshold the dog learns that "stare" gets nothing but acknowledging the scary thing but referring back to me gets awesome rewards. Understand your situation though Jemmy - sometimes you've just got to manage it.

Edited February 2, 2015 by The Spotted Devil

[Jemmy]

Yes that's why I love LAT - under threshold the dog learns that "stare" gets nothing but acknowledging the scary thing but referring back to me gets awesome rewards. Understand your situation though Jemmy - sometimes you've just got to manage it.

I do love LAT, it's given me a lot of confidence as well. I used to worry about her reacting, now I try and use each scenario as a training situation. Most of our 'stares' these days come from handler error in mistiming the click/treat delivery, and general fumble hands

Anyway, there is definitely hope for you Montana, and hopefully your trainer can give you confidence as well!

Edit for phone typos

Edited February 2, 2015 by Jemmy

[Simply Grand]

Why does your dog need to have a positive association with all other dogs? It certainly isn't part of his original breed function to greet strange dogs as friends and the negative experiences he is getting are making him defensive. If he cannot escape the unwanted attention of other dogs and you don't step in, he has little choice but to aggress. Heed what he is telling you and don't place him in situations where he feels he has to be defensive.

Timing wise, this is his second fear period. He needs controlled socialisation with reliable dogs who will not overwhelm him and a dog park is the last place I'd be taking him for that.

When I say you want them to have a positive association with other dogs I don't mean the other dog is the positive thing, I mean that when they see another dog they have a positive reaction rather than a negative or fear based one, as in 'oh there's a dog, that means I get something rewarding to me". It's not about trying to make them love other dogs, or even interacting with them at all if you/they don't want to.

Montana, I thought probably correct as in fix the problem, not actually "correcting" the dog :) have a read of the Exercising Reactive Dogs thread in the training sub-forum, it's got lots of useful information from people who are dealing with reactive dogs. Hopefully your trainer can give you some good advice, timing is really important with this kind of thing and it's really hard to explain without being there in person.

Do let us know how the training session goes!

ETA - here's a quote of myself from that thread briefly explaining how I worked on my Sheltie's reactivity. It's a simplified version and I'm certainly not saying you should follow this as a plan or anything, it's just to give you an idea. (BAT is behavioural adjustment training, it's kind of a similar concept to Look At That but can be more difficult to use in every day real life):

"So, once I figured that out I switched to building a positive association with other dogs, so starting off whenever another dog came anywhere nearby I would just start talking to him to keep his attention on me and shoving treats in his mouth. Then I gradually increased the criteria so that the other dog had to be closer and closer before he started getting the treats and eventually we could have a trigger dog right there sniffing around him while he remained focused on me and getting the treats.

Then I started asking him to hold his attention on me while the other dogs were around but waiting til there had been some interaction (him glancing at the other dog then back to me, him staying focused on me while the other dog sniffed him) then I would give praise and run backwards calling him away THEN give him the treats. So that was the start of the sort of BAT angle, where he was learning that moving away from the other dog rather than reacting was rewarding, both in relieving the stress of the other dog and getting a food reward.

Then it became a matter of watching him closely and catching him in those moments where he has some little interaction with another dog then heaping on the excited praise from wherever I was standing and encouraging him over to me. I also started variable rewarding with the treats then so sometimes he gets a treat and sometimes just pats and praise. "

Edited February 2, 2015 by Simply Grand

[sheena]

This is rather a long read, but a good one. It is a copy & paste from a link from CleanRun on Puppy Socialisation

The Biggest Mistake Of All: SOCIALIZATION.

Dogs need to be socialized. That means that dogs need to SEE the world, and handle it with social grace. We need to teach them the skills and habits necessary for participating within our society. Unfortunately socialization got misunderstood as interacting and playing. While puppies do need to play with other puppies, this is a teenie, tiny piece in their education, but somehow became the only piece.

Here is a socialization list that I have been compiling for the last three puppies that I raised. This is the type of thing that I teach in my puppy class.

1) Ridden in a wheelbarrow.

2) Many, many bridges of different surfaces, widths, heights, gaps inbetween planks etc. She can now take a slippery plank over my pond at a gallop, and stay on!

3) Climbing Driftwood at the beach for footing, balance, and learning how to use her body

4) Climbing rocks at botanical beach. This rock is thin sheets, so you need to focus on your feet and balance.

5) Sooke Home Hardware

6) Pet Smart where she shopped - but be careful of overly-friendly strangers who may not heed your instructions

7) The Gorge Waterway past heavy traffic, an odd pedestrian bridge, people, bikes, dogs, joggers etc

8) Canadian Tire, with a slippery, shiny entrance that she didn't even notice

9) Many types of floor surfaces

10) Only one dog-park trip with most pass-bys done in my arms, and several on the ground with very safe, kind dogs.

11) One walk with a friend and her dog

12) Children, and sat outside playgrounds

13) Hung out with chickens, ducks, and goats. When the goats were really scary, she was on my lap being protected

14) Been tossed into a giant box stuffed full with Teddy Bears, then got covered with Teddies and had to crawl her way out

15) Had towels thrown over top of her head. We have now graduated to entire sheets

16) Been held for cuddling and kisses every night

17) Had her toe-nails worked on weekly, with a dremel

18) Been cuddled and kissed while she chews on her bones

19) We walk at a new beach, forest or Mountain every single day. We are yet to repeat a walk.

20) Got stuffed into my jacket so I was 'wearing her', and we went for a bike ride with the big dogs running beside us

21) Is crated every single day for varying lengths of times

22) Has travelled in two vehicles, in different types of crates or seating arrangements.

23) Has been to Dintner Nurseries, and made friends with all the staff inside.

24) Because she is so friendly, she has had to learn the art of walking past people without always saying hello. We walk past at least four out of five people without greeting, otherwise her friendliness with be annoying when she is big and strong.

25) Maybe one of the most important things: She can pee and poop on grass, gravel, asphalt, or cement, on a leash, or free. This makes traveling very simple.

26) Every day she is presented with small problems that she must solve... how to get her ball that rolled under the couch, how to get the marrow out of her bone, how to stay on a bridge without falling off, how to climb over a downed tree that is higher than she thinks she can climb. I help her but NEVER do it for her. And I only help enough so that she has the confidence to do the rest. If she puts in no effort, I will not help her.

27) She is learning to come running back fast on her name, no matter the distraction. If she is running with my dogs, saying 'hello' to the chickens, seeing a person that she want to run to - 'Come' means chase me.

28) The Boardwalk in Sooke. It is a walk on a raised bridge - and is a fabulous experience for puppies.

29) She is learning that scratching up at, and holding onto my adult dog's heads while you passionately kiss them is not allowed.

30) Play Dates with trusted dog-friends

31) Walk on all types of stairs.

32) Been in a boat

33) Go swimming with a slow steady introduction to water

34) gone into the petting zoo to see all the animals, and more importantly, all the children

35) Walked on the weird decks at Fisherman's Wharf and explored this fun place. Be careful your puppy does not get eaten by the seals - and no, I am not joking. Don't allow them on the edge, peering into the water, just incase!

36) Been to two friend’s houses for dinner, and met their dogs when they were calm so that they would not scare her

37) Watched an adult herding sheep. Her eyes almost popped out of her head

38) Been in a kayak, and knows how to jump on and off

39) Been in a hammock

40) Sat on my lap in a swing

41) Gone down a slide, in my lap

42) Numerous games of soccer, including me tackling the ball from her

43) Stayed in hotels, and another house, during vacation

44) This polite puppy has learned to demand what she wants from me. This will be removed when she is less polite!

45) Travelled in the child section of a shopping cart, all around Home Depot

46) Ride in an elevator

47) Go through Automatic Doors

48) Be around someone that smells of cigarette smoke

49) Walk past a person in a wheelchair

50) Ridden around on my lap on the tractor

51) Accidentally seen a bear, and gave a very brave bark!

52) Hung out at the Vets and gotten cookies

Socialization means teaching life skills. I exposed them to every possible skill that she might need to be a functional adult. With all of the exposure and success comes a level of confidence and bravery; they will get to the point where they believe they are invincible. Even when they get into trouble, they know I am right there behind her to help her with her difficulties.

When they feel overwhelmed or scared, we do the experience in my arms, rather than on the floor. By not asking them to brave it, they watch from up high, and then starts wriggling like a mad things wanting to get down and do it themselves. Rather than asking them to try it, by taking that option away and making them feel safe they have to then demand that they be allowed to try it. Because it is their choice they are then brave as soon as they are put down on the ground.

My last puppy never did have one 'bad' experience. Unfortunately, it will happen, and even when it does, they will know that I am there to protect and help them. As they go on their adventures in the world, both good and bad, we are a team, and I have their back.

Monique Anstee

Victoria, BC

[Nekhbet]

He's displaying a developmental lack of confidence and he's telling you he's uncomfortable and overwhelmed. Dogs are not as social as the Disney movies like us to think. It can be strange for some breeds and even some individuals to be surrounded by and immediately make 'friends' with other dogs. That is not the inherent nature of the canine and a lot of German Shepherds are not 'run with the pack and make best buddies' types at a dog park. The fact your dog was a flip over onto his back kind of dog does not show a dog that was always comfortable to be there in the first place either - he was stressed. Now his stress is still there but he's ramping up the behavior to make them go away.

Don't go taking him to the dog park. This is not a testosterone fuelled aggression problem this is a dog that is not coping with an overwhelming environment you insist on putting him into and he's in the middle of changing from a puppy to an adult. There's new behaviors coming out now which are normal in a guarding breed which is what you purchased.

Keep socialising him and if in doubt call a behaviorist with experience in guarding breeds. Feeding him treats at the dog park will not create a positive association with other dogs, it's not that simplistic.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Nekhbet