Stitch Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 My old girl who suffers from IBD and also food allergies isn't doing well at the moment. She has a rumbling gut and is off her food. She is not responding to Zantac and although she improves with antibiotics, she gets worse again once they are stopped. She is due for teeth cleaning on Thursday and the gut specialist said he could do a gut biopsy at the same time. She has had this gut problem for many years however it is made worse by the fact she gets a skin allergy to dry dogfood and we presume chicken, so I have had to cook roo for her. I found I could feed her Ziwi Peak and also Natural Balance but that also seems to be problematical at the moment. Can anyone tell me exactly what information can be obtained by doing a biopsy? Vets have never been able to tell me exactly what is wrong with her gut...it all goes under the heading of IBD. After doing a biopsy will the vet know what is wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The biopsy will give more information but there is a chance it could either be non specific information, or not tell you anything new (neither of which are 'bad' things). Would the biopsies be collected at the same time as endoscopic exam, or with abdominal surgery? They will show evidence of inflammation, potentially evidence of neoplasia, some gut infections and general information about the structure and layering of the different regions of the gut. Endoscopic biopsies are easier to collect and allow examination of the inside of the gastrointestinal tract, but are limited in how much of the gut can be examined. For ruling in or out inflammatory bowel disease (which tends to be more generalised) then these are sufficient. If IBD is the diagnosis then it means that further treatment such as other antibiotics or prednisolone may be warranted. If the sample are 'normal' then it may be more of an irritable bowel situation. Feel free to ask more questions, it's not a small subject :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Thank you for that Rappie. You are right it isn't an easy subject. My girl has been battling it for years but recently it is getting worse. I have a supply of Metrozine always on hand and I have started her on it again this morning but it has got to the stage that it needs more. Whether that means starting her on Prednisone or something else I don't know. Over the years I have taken her consistently to vet specialists but stopped short of a biopsy as I never seem to get a real answer from the vets. I have a feeling that a biopsy would be equally ambiguous. I really don't know what is the best course of action. Prednisone is a drug that I would have liked to avoid but things can't continue as they are. Between the food allergies which cause extreme itching and the gut problems I just don't know which way to turn. The specialist vet doesn't have any answers, it is all very hit and miss. I get the distinct impression that there is no answer and I don't want to think of that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Unfortunately the only way to find out if there is something there is do a biopsy, so long as you are aware it may not be definitive (but it may also get a specific diagnosis too!). The metronidazole is used a lot for gut problems but for more than one reason - although it does treat the type of bacteria we find one gut, it also has a non specific anti-inflammatory effect which often leads to improvement in dogs with inflammatory bowel disease. In terms of treatment 'more' probably involves prednisolone but sometimes also other medications like tylosin (another type of antibiotic). A biopsy gives the opportunity to get a diagnosis that says yes, pred is likely. The alternative if all the other trials (diet, antibiotic, fencpbendazole etc) have been done and the treating vet feels that inflammatory bowel disease is most likely then it is sometime reasonable to do a trial with steroid (or other meds) and monitor the response. Sometimes this still might be the outcome if the biopsy is ambiguous. Edited January 5, 2015 by Rappie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) I don't know if this would help but my first Italian was eventually diagnosed with IBD. Until that point he was on limited diets and all sorts, nothing held the bloody diarrhoea at bay for long. Initially he was put on cortisone and a nightmare couple of years followed but I changed vets and they tried different meds. he was then put on 3 doses a day of an old drug called "Salazapyrin" - not sure if that spelling is correct. He was also on a special diet and the combination of the two kept him pretty well apart from one episode most years where he'd end up on a drip for a few days, usually after getting hold of someone's discarded food whilst out on a walk. Has your vet tried a medication like that? Edited January 5, 2015 by Her Majesty Dogmad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xyz Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 You really have nothing to loose by doing the biopsies (except an emptier wallet!). Endoscopic exam and biopsies are fairly benign procedure, and at the worst you will get no new information, and have ruled out some of the more easily diagnosed problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 Treatment of choice has pretty much been Zantac & Metrozine, with Amoxyclav given occasionally and a combination of Amoxyclav, Baytril & Famotidine given on one occasion because the faecal sample showed an over abundance of a particular bacteria causing blood flecks in the poos. She had to have something for the nausea this medication cocktail caused as well but I don't remember the name of it. I never know from one day to the next if she is going to be well or have a flare up. Her farts are plentiful and deadly poor girl! and her stomach is always rumbling. And yes, vet fees are omnipresent!! I am hoping that if she gets her teeth scaled then her stomach might settle down a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Did your vet ever tell you about something called Carafate? I virtually lived in the vets with my IG with IBD, I can't even begin to estimate how much it all cost (this was in 2000-2004 before it was stabilised), it was thousands for sure. Plus you carry around the continual guilt that you can't seem to get it right and your pet is constantly suffering. My vet told me about Carafate which is available over the counter. Get a syringe, crush up half a tablet and mix with water and give to your dog as soon as they go off their food or you hear stomach rumblings - this is what got me through for a long time plus the Salazapyrin and special diet of course. With my current IG who cannot have an endoscopy to diagnose (similar symptoms to IBD but not as bad as my first IG), I give her the Carafate at the first sign that all is not well and she recovers within half a day - without it is 1-2 days recover per episode and they happen regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 I just Googled that HMD and it sounds similar to Zantac??? I am waiting (and waiting) for the specialist vet to get back to me so I will ask him about carafate & salazaparin. We just seem to lurch along, waiting for the next bout of diarrhoea or being off her food to occur. There just has to be something that will ease her problems?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) I just Googled that HMD and it sounds similar to Zantac??? I am waiting (and waiting) for the specialist vet to get back to me so I will ask him about carafate & salazaparin. We just seem to lurch along, waiting for the next bout of diarrhoea or being off her food to occur. There just has to be something that will ease her problems?? And this is how I lived for several years, I would never want to do it again. Different vets have different ideas on IBD, I had been to 3 different surgeries (the 2nd one put him on Salazapyrin) and the current one told me about Carafate, I've been going there since 2004. The first vet practice told me that NOTHING except the Hills Ultra ZD biscuits could pass his lips. He was very miserable and life was very hard, he was starving and wouldn't eat. I eventually found that someone in the US had a blog about her battle with IBD and she had tried sweet potato = I did that too and it was a real success. As time went on, I eventually tried tuna (in spring water) once a week, just to give him some variety without making him sick. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, it is a truly distressing disease. Edited January 5, 2015 by Her Majesty Dogmad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) My girl has the 2 problems...the IBD and she gets itchy from certain dry dogfoods...even the hypoallergenic ones that are supposed to have hydrolysed protein. Isn't it wonderful how all these terms just roll off your tongue after living with IBD, etc.!! Nothing is a perfect fit...even the kangaroo is not a perfect fit. My girl loses weight on it and doesn't really like it anyway. I was cooking it with sweet potato but I didn't this time to see if she would like it better that way. She moves it round the dish with her nose but only eats it when she gets desperate. Is there a dry dogfood other than Hills or Royal Canin Hypoallergic varieties that is OK? I have tried her on Natural Balance but she gets itchy on that one too and that is supposed not to have anything in it that they can get allergic/itchy too. Maybe the idea is to rotate the dry dogfood??? I might try her on Hills z/d again. Last time she was on Hills her poos were still a bit runny. RC Hypo was better for the IBD but a disaster for the skin problems. Edited January 5, 2015 by Stitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 The specialist vet got back to me at 8pm. He surely does work long hours and I was very grateful that he did phone. He says that my girl can be on Metrozine permanently if it keeps the IBD at bay....which is good seeing as I started her on it this morning. He said that if the Metrozine settles everything down in 3 weeks cut back to 1/2 of the dose and see if that still works. If not then boost it up again to the full dose. If the long term trial of Metrozine doesn't work this would be an indicator to then going ahead and do an endoscopic biopsy. So at this stage she will have her teeth cleaned on Thursday and continue with the Metrozine. I think I will try her on the Hills Z/d again although I find it really makes their teeth dirty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 It has to be the Ultra ZD and you can buy in a canned version. I used other dry dog foods (very exy) that were fish or duck based. The problem with IBD is the meat protein, you can get away with the odd serve of unusual meat protein which is why the duck was ok occasionally. You can buy grain free food at Petbarn, fish based - maybe give it a try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazydoglady99 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Hey Stitch.. I have been talking to Sharlene from petessentials today. A hair analysis can tell you pretty much EVERYTHING going in inside your dogs body. It takes 1 week and costs $180. I too have a very sick little dog and have run out of ideas/specialists etc. I am going to get my whole family tested along with the pets!! Email Sharlene at [email protected] and she will tell you if it might be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Thank you for all your replies. I have never liked feeding canned dogfood but I will have a look at the Hills Ultra z/d. Not really convinced about the hair sample thing. The saliva sample from the USA based vet seems to be more reliable although vets here don't support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 hair testing seems a good resource :) It was thru testing hair samples that Emperor napoleon was found to have suffered from arsenic poisoning - it is used forensically I believe to check mineral /toxin levels ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Maybe great for working out toxins etc. but don't see how it could work for food intolerances or sensitivities? The Skin specialist and Internal medicine vets say it is not reliable for these problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crazydoglady99 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) * Edited January 7, 2015 by crazydoglady99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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