Pets Die In Sa Boarding Kennel Fire

[cavNrott]

Do we know if the owner of the kennels was out fighting fires elsewhere. Did he actually say that anywhere or is it just Chinese whispers?

This man made a very bad error of judgement and my heart breaks for the animals who met a horrible death because of this. Especially for the owners who wanted to collect their animals the previous day. They'll be blaming themselves for not collecting their animals despite the reassurance of the kennel owner. I could not even imagine the state I would be in if my dogs died this way. I've never put any of my dogs in boarding kennels, I'd rather be at home with them than take a holiday without them.

I haven't seen the Facebook page where everyone has gone 'sue him' crazy. Emotions are running high and I understand why they're yelling about taking legal action but they need to settle down. Hysteria won't help anyone.

[Jed]

But the point is we can not guarantee what happened, we don't know yet. Everything is pieced together and a story cobbled together.

I absolutely understand people affected would be mad, I would be too I am sure. Doesn't give me the right to comment as an external party who doesn't know what happened.

Also it might be a little generous to remember these guys lost their home as well, would you say the same of general homeowners?

That they should have done more? Would you assail them with such suggestions on how they could have avoided their loss? No, because it is heartless.

I am not suggesting people not ask questions, but not taking facebook as gospel and a little sensitivity would not go astray.

Of course people can comment if they want to.

And I might point out that you are commenting, by the way.

Yes, they lost their home, and probably a lot of other things, and their pets. Yes, I think they probably should have done more. I am not asking them, I don't know them. I am having an opinion on a newsworthy event which is of interest to me.

I have not taken any information from facebook.

Just because you don't agree with these points of view doesn't make them wrong. Comment on the situation, but why comment on others points of view?

And, hopefully, this post might give guidance to people in similar situations in the future. I would now call around and collect my dog if it was in a fire threatened area in a boarding kennel. And I would ask prior to sending the dog what evacuation means were in place.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

The kennels in the ACT that got burnt (separate fire to the big 2003 fires), the guy who ran that - was a fire fighter - the fire was "over there" not burning towards his place so off he went...

and then the wind changed. And he didn't have enough time to get back and save all the dogs. Saved some but couldn't save all. I think, until you're in it - it's hard to believe how quickly and unpredictably a fire can get out of hand.

Personally I think fires are extremely dangerous - I am happy to learn from other people's mistakes in under estimating the danger and be overly paranoid.

But 10 evacuations a year because of catastrophic fire declaration days for nothing - would not help. You can't wait until a fire breaks out - on the catastrophic day like last Friday - you won't have time should the wind go in your direction.

One of my cousins - knows if a fire breaks out in Harden (NSW) - it's only a matter of time before his back paddocks get burnt out. So he has time to get all the stock off and down to an area where the fire is less likely to go and is better protected (has water and fire fighting equipment). He can also tell the local version of CFS where to set the back burn lines if they don't know already. So some kinds of fires are predictable.

But ones like the ACT 2003 fires are not. They make their own weather, and they blast embers 100s of KM ahead of the main front - starting new fronts. Bare paddocks of dust burst into flame as anything organic explodes.

We're lucky with this one that it's not on the back of several years of no watering the garden water restrictions and drought. But we haven't had proper rain since August. Expecting some Thurs/Friday. Which will probably make a mess, and hopefully will help contain the current fires tho it might start some new ones (thunderstorms).

This is what can happen on a catastrophic day when everything goes wrong:

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3774941.htm

[Jed]

Hazy Wal I have sent you a PM.

[Rebanne]

Do we know if the owner of the kennels was out fighting fires elsewhere. Did he actually say that anywhere or is it just Chinese whispers?

This man made a very bad error of judgement and my heart breaks for the animals who met a horrible death because of this. Especially for the owners who wanted to collect their animals the previous day. They'll be blaming themselves for not collecting their animals despite the reassurance of the kennel owner. I could not even imagine the state I would be in if my dogs died this way. I've never put any of my dogs in boarding kennels, I'd rather be at home with them than take a holiday without them.

I haven't seen the Facebook page where everyone has gone 'sue him' crazy. Emotions are running high and I understand why they're yelling about taking legal action but they need to settle down. Hysteria won't help anyone.

But sometimes people have to put there pets in kennels for other reasons then holidays. I did recently because of my daughter's wedding. Usually the dogs come with me to her place, but this one time she didn't want them there. I wasn't going to go against her wishes nor was I going to miss my only child's wedding. So into the kennels they went.

[labadore]

The kennels in the ACT that got burnt (separate fire to the big 2003 fires), the guy who ran that - was a fire fighter - the fire was "over there" not burning towards his place so off he went...

and then the wind changed. And he didn't have enough time to get back and save all the dogs. Saved some but couldn't save all. I think, until you're in it - it's hard to believe how quickly and unpredictably a fire can get out of hand.

Personally I think fires are extremely dangerous - I am happy to learn from other people's mistakes in under estimating the danger and be overly paranoid.

But 10 evacuations a year because of catastrophic fire declaration days for nothing - would not help. You can't wait until a fire breaks out - on the catastrophic day like last Friday - you won't have time should the wind go in your direction.

This what I don't understand and quite frankly am angrily amazed at, why would you as a kennel owner, be off fighting fires, when your priority obligation/responsibility is to protect the pets in your care. Of all people, firefighters should know how unpredictable fires can be, so if they owned a kennel why would they be off their property fighting fires. Pet owners are entrusting them into their care and paying money for their business to keep their pet's safe. Even if they ignored all the warnings that everyone else was heeding, despite the fire not being at their doorstep and not evacuating, it is gross negligence at best to essentially abandon their duty of care to the pets in their care and go off fighting fires away from their property

[sandgrubber]

Many years back I tried to work out evacuation plans for a boarding kennel in WA. The sorts of problems AlphaBet described in her excellent post had me tearing out my hair. Others didn't seem to think it was much of a problem . . . dogs could go to the showgrounds or to other kennels . . . problem solved.

Seems to me that prevention of catastrophic kennel fires requires more than individual kennels making evacuation plans (which they may or may not be able to execute).

Laws should be changed to permit evacuation in sheep or cattle transport vehicles in case of fire emergency. Even a stakebed truck would be better than leaving animals to be killed.

Livestock transporters might be willing to volunteer services for emergency evacuations. .. or is that unrealistic? I don't know any livestock transporters.

Some location (fairgrounds? showgrounds? racetrack? fenced sports fields?) should be designated as an evacuation sites.

Phone trees or the internet equivalent should be set up to call in volunteers in case of such emergencies . . . to take in animals or tend to animals kept at evacuation centers.

Some sort of network of kennel owners might allow for accommodation of animals that must be evacuated.

Maybe councils should require an evacuation plan before granting a kennel license and state or national organizations should work up a basic plan format that was logistically workable..

[Diva]

I think the best response to the evacuation challenge is likely to be an industry-wide one. I was in the position many years ago of evacuating a kennel I was minding when a bushfire approached. It was the transport provided by dog show and obedience people and the space offered in their kennels that made it possible, and even then the road blocks meant I had to do something illegal to get back in for the last dogs. The police on roadblocks dont make exceptions because you have dogs to get to.

It was a small kennel compared to what is being talked about here, and even then the time, resources and people it took to move all the dogs was very considerable, I can't imagine it being possible to do it without a network. Maybe this is something their industry association needs to take on.

As for Canberra 2003, well I was here for that too. Such fires in such conditions just cannot be fought until the conditions moderate, but authorites were broadcasting reassurances even as the fire hit. The first emergency warnings were for people to return to their homes in certain suburbs and prepare to fight. Those suburbs were already burning and residents fleeing for their lives. If dog kennels had been in the way of that they would not have had any idea of the level of risk until too late. The fire was moving at 20 to 30 kms an hour, generating cyclonic winds, and throwing embers well ahead. A nightmare.

[OSoSwift]

Not all owners have someone who is here who can be an emergency contact /pick up.

If I had the ability to send any of the animals in my boarding facility either home or to the owners choice of carer - hell yes it would be yes please and thank you.

The least amount of animals I have to evacuate or defend the better. If that was said I do not understand the reasoning for that. If my area is under fire danger I want them out of there if at all possible.

[labadore]

Do we know if the owner of the kennels was out fighting fires elsewhere. Did he actually say that anywhere or is it just Chinese whispers?

This man made a very bad error of judgement and my heart breaks for the animals who met a horrible death because of this. Especially for the owners who wanted to collect their animals the previous day. They'll be blaming themselves for not collecting their animals despite the reassurance of the kennel owner. I could not even imagine the state I would be in if my dogs died this way. I've never put any of my dogs in boarding kennels, I'd rather be at home with them than take a holiday without them.

I haven't seen the Facebook page where everyone has gone 'sue him' crazy. Emotions are running high and I understand why they're yelling about taking legal action but they need to settle down. Hysteria won't help anyone.

But sometimes people have to put there pets in kennels for other reasons then holidays. I did recently because of my daughter's wedding. Usually the dogs come with me to her place, but this one time she didn't want them there. I wasn't going to go against her wishes nor was I going to miss my only child's wedding. So into the kennels they went.

Yeah lots of other reasons why dogs are kennelled. A few years back, I had to urgently rush back to NZ when my younger sister died and I had to put my 3 Labs into the kennel during this time and kennels have always been my first option if I have ever need to go away whether it be emergency trips, business or holidays outside of OZ. I had another emergency trip back years ago when my mother was seriously ill and subsequently died and this was during the busy xmas new year period and the kennels were full, so I had to find an alternative option for my Lab boy I had at the time and was lucky enough to do that thru one of the pet sitting businesses where they get minded in the pet sitter's home. However that may not have been an option if I had multiple dogs at the time.

Reason I personally have used kennels is that I know my dogs are in a safe and secure environment being looked after by dog knowledgeable people. Hmmm this tragedy makes me rethink that somewhat

[OSoSwift]

Personally if I was evacuating dogs and that required them to not be in open crates on not on an open trailer I wouldn't care, they would be safely removed, I would deal with any fines later.

Edited January 6, 2015 by OSoSwift

[LisaCC]

1420508299[/url]' post='6624174']

1420507129[/url]' post='6624145']

Do we know if the owner of the kennels was out fighting fires elsewhere. Did he actually say that anywhere or is it just Chinese whispers?

This man made a very bad error of judgement and my heart breaks for the animals who met a horrible death because of this. Especially for the owners who wanted to collect their animals the previous day. They'll be blaming themselves for not collecting their animals despite the reassurance of the kennel owner. I could not even imagine the state I would be in if my dogs died this way. I've never put any of my dogs in boarding kennels, I'd rather be at home with them than take a holiday without them.

I haven't seen the Facebook page where everyone has gone 'sue him' crazy. Emotions are running high and I understand why they're yelling about taking legal action but they need to settle down. Hysteria won't help anyone.

But sometimes people have to put there pets in kennels for other reasons then holidays. I did recently because of my daughter's wedding. Usually the dogs come with me to her place, but this one time she didn't want them there. I wasn't going to go against her wishes nor was I going to miss my only child's wedding. So into the kennels they went.

Yes, I'm boarding Nova for the first time during fire season, for my brothers wedding. I'm not going to miss that. Am I worried, especially after all this? Yes. But I can't take him with me, and he's boarding with Alphabet who has emailed me an extensive fire plan. I'll probably be a stressed out dog owner anyway, but I trust him more boarding there than if I was to leave him in a kennel at Wagga, or even house sat for that matter.

[HazyWal]

But the point is we can not guarantee what happened, we don't know yet. Everything is pieced together and a story cobbled together.

I absolutely understand people affected would be mad, I would be too I am sure. Doesn't give me the right to comment as an external party who doesn't know what happened.

Also it might be a little generous to remember these guys lost their home as well, would you say the same of general homeowners?

That they should have done more? Would you assail them with such suggestions on how they could have avoided their loss? No, because it is heartless.

I am not suggesting people not ask questions, but not taking facebook as gospel and a little sensitivity would not go astray.

Sensitivity? Like rolling your eyes and calling bullshit because you don't agree with Labadore, BTW that's Labadore without a random R, that kinda sensitivity? If you had actually read my post you would've seen that I said "I" couldn't...me....HazyWal, if you could without a backward step then good for you. This man's story wasn't a cobbled together story it was a heartbreaking account of what happened, to his dog. An account of how he feels it was avoidable because after all, he's the one grieving, he's the one living the nightmare. This is a very emotional subject, people will sit on each side of the fence some will sit on it, that's what a discussion forum is.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

This what I don't understand and quite frankly am angrily amazed at, why would you as a kennel owner, be off fighting fires, when your priority obligation/responsibility is to protect the pets in your care.

I think the usual ethos of the people in the CFS or equivalent is if a fire breaks out on your neighbours place or the neighbours neighbours place - you go help fight it.

Because if everyone pitches in they have the best chance of stopping the fire and saving the most ground possible.

Unfortunately that means some CFS volunteers lose their own house when the fire does something unpredictable. I'm not even entirely sure that all of them would have stayed home if they knew it was coming for their place, depending on what else was at stake (eg the local village hospital and patients at Gumeracha).

I'm pretty sure both kennel owners if they had any idea the fire could travel as far and in the direction it did - they would not have gone. It's not like any of us can remember when the fire went from Sampson flat to Tea Tree gully in an afternoon any time before.

Probably hasn't ever happened before. But we're in a decade where every year sets a record for hot and dry.

[redangel]

Having read the discussion I see how highly emotive this is...I can only imagine how the owners of the dogs are feeling.

I cannot cast judgement as all the assertions flying around with this incident the facts are not established and much may be hearsay.

I do know that if I was faced with having a dog in kennels that was at high risk of fire in the area I would expect the business owner to be present and monitoring the situation on location where my dog is. I would expect a fire plan.

I guess in the review of the SA incident, facts on the events leading up to and on that day will eventually become clear.

My only experience with fire zones is that I have many friends in the Victorian Dandenongs. Even where there is no direct active fire they choose to evacuate and take refuge with their animals outside the risk region because if Ash Wednesday has taught anything is that things change or escalate very quickly.

[Little Gifts]

There has to be common sense used too. If I was a volunteer fire fighter and fires were in my area I'd probably want to be there to help. But if I had say 100 animals on my property and only a single, not yet adult person to care for them (feed, water, exercise, medicate and clean even without the added stress of a natural disaster) then I'd probably have to put my hand down and say no, I am needed at home. What if I as the only adult got trapped away from my home or even injured/killed while fighting that fire? What if the fire turned and threatened my home and I wasn't there to help? If I ran a kennel and my main adult helper had to go out of town at the busiest time of year then I'd probably also have to consider how many animals I was able to care for during that time. Would I have the time and physical capabilities to feed, water, exercise, medicate and clean the cages of 100 animals? Surely there is a yardstick for such things - x number of staff to x number of animals? These things exist for a reason - to ensure all the animals needs are met.

I'm not saying the kennel owners deserve our vilification but they had a lot of charges in their care and they had a responsibility to make sensible decisions regarding their care. I would personally be very angry if I found out there was only a teenage girl looking after so many animals for a period of time. Remove the fire from the equation and that poor girl didn't have a chance in hell of addressing any crisis situation that may have arisen. What if a gate got accidentally left open and a dog fight happened or a dog ran off? Even if one of the animals fell ill she wasn't old enough to drive a car and get them to the vet. I think the maximum I've cared for in an overnight situation is 14 rescue dogs and a load of cats in a cattery (who looked after themselves) and it is a lot of work. They didn't have a handful of pets on the premises - they had around 100 and they were their primary carers at that time so had to consider their needs as a priority at all times.

I've been involved in numerous disasters involving cyclones and floods up here in Queensland in a professional capacity and have seen the results of animals left behind. I only have one fire experience - trapped in a car in a bush fire in the NT many years ago. So yes an evacuation plan needs to look all pretty and clever but when it comes down to it, if those dogs went into crates, piled up on the back of a ute and were driven to a safe and shady location, stayed confined but got food, water and toilet breaks then most owners and the authorities would've understood. I say most because some will never get how an emergency works. But I for one could never get over the thought of one of my dogs trapped in a cage while it was consumed by fire.

In my experience making poor decisions is not uncommon during natural disasters. Lots of people don't evac because it has never happened in their area before or it all happens too quickly and they get frozen by fear. But when you are talking about a business and innocent lives are involved we have to expect more erring on the side of caution. You wouldn't expect a boarding school or a hospital, a rural retreat or even a business where the staff lived on site to just wait and see, particularly when evac plans would take a long time to action and other places are evaccing around them. You also wouldn't expect all the key decision makers to be offsite doing other stuff. They would be onsite, kept informed and ready to spring into action when it was needed. So while I appreciate the owners must be shattered by what has happened I think several negligent decisions were made that left these kennels and the animals in them at unnessecary risk. It is something to be learnt from. My heart goes out to all (including the owners) who lost an animal at these kennels.

[Steph M]

But the point is we can not guarantee what happened, we don't know yet. Everything is pieced together and a story cobbled together.

I absolutely understand people affected would be mad, I would be too I am sure. Doesn't give me the right to comment as an external party who doesn't know what happened.

Also it might be a little generous to remember these guys lost their home as well, would you say the same of general homeowners?

That they should have done more? Would you assail them with such suggestions on how they could have avoided their loss? No, because it is heartless.

I am not suggesting people not ask questions, but not taking facebook as gospel and a little sensitivity would not go astray.

Sensitivity? Like rolling your eyes and calling bullshit because you don't agree with Labadore, BTW that's Labadore without a random R, that kinda sensitivity? If you had actually read my post you would've seen that I said "I" couldn't...me....HazyWal, if you could without a backward step then good for you. This man's story wasn't a cobbled together story it was a heartbreaking account of what happened, to his dog. An account of how he feels it was avoidable because after all, he's the one grieving, he's the one living the nightmare. This is a very emotional subject, people will sit on each side of the fence some will sit on it, that's what a discussion forum is.

I am terribly sorry my phone corrected Labadore's user name without my noticing, I am not sure why that offended you so greatly, but do accept my apologies.

You're right though, I could have been more sensitive, understandably I am pretty over seeing someone already down kicked further. Like I said, it doesn't benefit anyone but is totally self serving.

I also have no idea why you are assuming I directed anything toward you, you seem to have taken my post pretty personally and I am sorry for that too.

I actually didn't even read your post to be honest, I missed it.

Can I also point out not once did I suggest the other people involved were not living a horrible hellish tale and suggest I do not feel the utmost sympathy for them too.

It is horrible for everyone, but the vitriol I was referring to doesn't make it better on them either, I would be willing to bet the opposite actually.

[grumpette]

Okay I am going to comment from the perspective of a volunteer fire fighter here in Victoria and a pet owner.

Firstly, every volunteer has the ability and right to decide which incident they choose to attend. They are not forced to respond to every incident. They may not be capable of attending the incident due to lack of skill, injury or other commitments. They may look at the fire behaviour, the terrain, the predicted wind direction and decide that the fire is likely to impact on their house, and thus decide not to get on the truck, but to defend their house and the neighbours' houses.

In 2009 we responded to the fire burning 2 suburbs away in Whittlesea. We left the dogs at home. The neighbours were home and they knew we had gone out on the truck. We were out for 4 hours. Then we knew that the wind was changing and the fire was heading towards Kinglake. There was nothing more that we could do where we were, as the fire was all around us, one of our trucks was trapped, so we pulled back to the fire station, rescuing a person along the way. OH and I decided that we were going back to Kinglake to get the dogs and bring them back to the safety of the fire station, as it was well prepared and defendable. Members of the community were starting to come to the station to seek refuge as all roads off the mountain were blocked by fire and falling trees. We made it back to Kinglake. I put two crates, a water bowl, two leads, two dogs and a computer hard drive in my car, while OH wet the house down. 10 minutes later I left to head back towards the station. I made it. The OH did not. I got a message on my phone saying "House on fire. Trapped on Glenburn Rd. Cannot get out". I did not hear from him or see him for another 6 hours. Should we have turned out originally to the fire 2 suburbs away and left the dogs? Yes because the neighbours were prepared to take them with them when they left. They were doing this when we arrived back. Should we have left the fire station when the fire was headed towards our home to get the dogs when the community was gathering there and needed protection? Yes because there was a truck there, a very large pump and 220,000 litres of water, all operated by very competent and experienced fire fighters. If we had not gone home, 3 houses would not have been saved, neither would the pub and neither would 2 separate people and a gorgeous dog, because of the efforts of my OH.

However, this year there was a large fire in a highly populated area that is extremely hilly, which started on a deemed "extreme" day. Very dear friends of ours were away interstate and they had organised to have a pet sitter stay at their home and look after all the pets: dogs, ducks, chickens and birds. The pet sitter was a volunteer fire fighter. The fire started in their area. The pet sitter left the property and the animals to fend for themselves and got on the truck to fight the fire. We received a frantic interstate call from our friends asking if we could go and defend their house and protect the animals. We did. Their house is fully sprinklered and defendable. Should the pet sitter have gone on the truck? Hell no. They were getting paid to protect the animals in this exact situation.

You see it all depends on your current responsibilities and the circumstances. If the kennel owner was indeed a CFS volunteer then it was his responsibility to use his knowledge and experience to protect those animals that he was responsible for, not to be on a truck trying to protect others in the community.

Edited January 6, 2015 by grumpette

[Sheridan]

I have no idea what happened or if it was anyone's fault. The person who lit the incinerator on a hot day, possibly. One thing I am pretty sure about is that despite some pet owners being supportive, others who lost their pets won't be.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Sheridan

[Little Gifts]

Grumpette my sister was also an SES team leader for many years and family always came first. If one of the volunteers or one of their family had been affected by a disaster that took priority. No-one expected them to stay and help out and attempts were always made where possible to give them resources to deal with the crisis. I assume volunteer fire fighters would have a similar unwritten code.

I suspect I would've done the same thing as you did - you assess the risk, consider your options and make an informed choice as it is happening. What you don't do is make assumptions or get complacent. No disaster event will ever be the same as another.