labadore Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 My 7 year old Lab boy who I adopted in April this year has sustained a ruptured CCL (confirmed with xrays and drawer test) and I am now debating surgery vs conservative management (i.e. non surgical) treatment options and doing lots of research on both options. Either way, am looking at physio for him which ideally includes use of an underwater treadmill and acupuncture and Sydney Animal Physiotherapy has both, so just after opinions on any Sydney doler's experiences with this place/physios. He is currently on an anti-inflammatory (Meloxicam), JointGuard powder, Fish oil capsules, Evening Primrose Oil capsules (recommended by his Dermatologist for his allergies) and I have already placed an online order for 2 x RoseHip Vital Canine 500g powder (luckily on special), so hopefully all these supplements will also help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VizslaMomma Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Kristine have the only underwater treadmill in Sydney. She offers a combined approach to treatment and can think outside the box if needed. I found her very apporachable and caring. She did absolute wonders with a dog belonging to a friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Kristine comes highly recommended by people I know who are experienced dog people/rescuers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavsRcute Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I prefer Helen Nicholson from K9 physiotherapy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Yes but I too prefer Helen Nicholson for the fact she's a vet and a physio so I have seen a more rounded approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) Helen is great but she is not a vet- although I think she does have a dual qualified vet and physio on staff. There's no doubt that Helen is highly qualified but she's a PhD doctor Edit: clearly time has slipped past me. Edited January 1, 2015 by Rappie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Ah you're right - she has a vet/ physio on the team in Naomi Boyd (who is also lovely!). It was her training that stood her out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labadore Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Thanks everyone. Whilst lack of Veterinary qualification does concern me somewhat, hopefully the animal physio experience of both Kristine and Helen along with their recommendations by the dog community make up for this and if I decide that the Veterinary qualification is more important, then there is the option of Naomi Boyd who does have the dual qualification. However, the big plus for Sydney Animal Physiotherapy is the underwater treadmill (only one in Sydney) as Hydrotherapy has so many benefits for rehabilitating dogs with orthopaedic injuries and I am really in favour of using Hydrotherapy as part of his treatment whether I opt for a surgical or non surgical option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Labadore is the knee stable? My understanding is you could throw lots of money on rehab but if the knee isn't stable your better off having surgery done to stabilise things before undertaking rehab. If your not keen on the bone cutting surgery a lateral suture repair with suitable rehab can work well as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VizslaMomma Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) Edited January 1, 2015 by VizslaMomma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Thanks everyone. Whilst lack of Veterinary qualification does concern me somewhat, hopefully the animal physio experience of both Kristine and Helen along with their recommendations by the dog community make up for this and if I decide that the Veterinary qualification is more important, then there is the option of Naomi Boyd who does have the dual qualification. However, the big plus for Sydney Animal Physiotherapy is the underwater treadmill (only one in Sydney) as Hydrotherapy has so many benefits for rehabilitating dogs with orthopaedic injuries and I am really in favour of using Hydrotherapy as part of his treatment whether I opt for a surgical or non surgical option. I have not had any contact with Kristine so cannot comment on her, but I have made many referrals to Helen and have had no issue with her qualifications or the service that she provides. She is an expert in her 'realm' and does what she does very well, working alongside veterinary medical and surgical specialists as well as taking referrals from private practitioners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xyz Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I would seriously think about going straight to surgery, in a young healthy dog like a 7yo lab if he has the correct surgery (TTA etc) he will be almost back to normal in 6 weeks, and lead a normal pain free life. The longer you wait the more damage will be done within the joint. Follow up physio with Kristine would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labadore Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Labadore is the knee stable? My understanding is you could throw lots of money on rehab but if the knee isn't stable your better off having surgery done to stabilise things before undertaking rehab. If your not keen on the bone cutting surgery a lateral suture repair with suitable rehab can work well as well. I would seriously think about going straight to surgery, in a young healthy dog like a 7yo lab if he has the correct surgery (TTA etc) he will be almost back to normal in 6 weeks, and lead a normal pain free life. The longer you wait the more damage will be done within the joint. Follow up physio with Kristine would be great. Thanks for your posts. I don't want to get into a debate in this thread about surgery as advised above I am currently researching and evaluating both surgical and non surgical options. I will probably be starting another thread asking dolers with dogs who underwent CCL surgery what the outcome was. I will say I am not keen on bone cutting surgery (not monetary related) and have sought a 2nd opinion from a very experienced vet with extensive experience in performing surgery on large breeds like GSD's, Rotties and Labs with CCL injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 It wasn't really a debate from my perspective. Have just spent a lot of time talking to various rehab/specialists etc both within Australia and over in the US. My parents were keen with my old girl who was otherwise super active to avoid surgery but in the end after 2 weeks of her being miserable they agreed to go ahead with a lateral suture repair. Her knee is still strong over 12 months later. All the best with your decision. There is some interesting video produced by a rehab guru in the states where they used a stifle brace during rehab but that was only a partial tear. Happy to answer any questions or help with info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabbit Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Helen Nicholson and Naomi Boyd are both absolutely fantastic. Couldn't recommend them highly enough - both professionally, and as lovely people. Helen's undergrad degree was in human physio, and her Masters and PhD in animal physio. Naomi has degrees in both vet and physio. I have been working with them both regularly at ARH Homebush for some time, for various sport and hyperactive dog related injuries. They were recommended to me by a vet nurse who runs a dog hydrotherapy pool. We had had limited results with a well known dog chiro, plus massage and acupuncture. After starting physio with Helen and also changing chiros, the results were dramatic. I particularly like that responsibility for my dog's injury rehab rested with me - follow the daily program, do the weekly reports back, see the results. When I've slacked off (buying/selling/moving house etc) I see the difference too. When an injury has occurred, I've had an immediate response to my panic call - sent through a video, get an assessment of whether a consult is needed or not, and move forward with a plan. Nowadays, we don't do weekly reports as we're past the injury rehab program. We just go back for fine tuning, and for little niggles and soreness that my cannonball dog inflicts on himself :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I am currently Rehabbing a Great Dane X with complete CCL rupture bilaterally. The biggest factor in surgery being the only option is Meniscal damage- if that is found then I won't even try rehab only. Then how far along the process it is and how comfortable be the dog is in the mean time. So far we are having a significant amount of success using acupuncture, herbs and exercise. It is a big job for the owner because it does rely on them being committed 100%. Edited January 7, 2015 by Jumabaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labadore Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 It wasn't really a debate from my perspective. Have just spent a lot of time talking to various rehab/specialists etc both within Australia and over in the US. My parents were keen with my old girl who was otherwise super active to avoid surgery but in the end after 2 weeks of her being miserable they agreed to go ahead with a lateral suture repair. Her knee is still strong over 12 months later. All the best with your decision. There is some interesting video produced by a rehab guru in the states where they used a stifle brace during rehab but that was only a partial tear. Happy to answer any questions or help with info. Thanks Ness, I have done so much research on CCL injury and treatment options, my head hurts :D Helen Nicholson and Naomi Boyd are both absolutely fantastic. Couldn't recommend them highly enough - both professionally, and as lovely people. Helen's undergrad degree was in human physio, and her Masters and PhD in animal physio. Naomi has degrees in both vet and physio. I have been working with them both regularly at ARH Homebush for some time, for various sport and hyperactive dog related injuries. They were recommended to me by a vet nurse who runs a dog hydrotherapy pool. We had had limited results with a well known dog chiro, plus massage and acupuncture. After starting physio with Helen and also changing chiros, the results were dramatic. I particularly like that responsibility for my dog's injury rehab rested with me - follow the daily program, do the weekly reports back, see the results. When I've slacked off (buying/selling/moving house etc) I see the difference too. When an injury has occurred, I've had an immediate response to my panic call - sent through a video, get an assessment of whether a consult is needed or not, and move forward with a plan. Nowadays, we don't do weekly reports as we're past the injury rehab program. We just go back for fine tuning, and for little niggles and soreness that my cannonball dog inflicts on himself :) Thanks Wabbit, it is good to get details of doler's experiences with the recommended physios I am currently Rehabbing a Great Dane X with complete CCL rupture bilaterally. The biggest factor in surgery being the only option is Meniscal damage- if that is found then I won't even try rehab only. Then how far along the process it is and how comfortable be the dog is in the mean time. So far we are having a significant amount of success using acupuncture, herbs and exercise. It is a big job for the owner because it does rely on them being committed 100%. Thanks Jumabaar, this is one of my concerns as well with just conservative management, over time meniscal damage may be done. Since I posted last week, I have actually made an appointment with David Lidbetter for my boy next week for a consult to discuss all things surgical and have him examine my boy as well. Being the extremely knowledgeable and highly experienced animal orthopaedic specialist he is, he will be able to answer all the questions I have. Even though I am not keen on the bone cutting surgery options and have received details on the type of surgery (modified Paatsama technique) from the very experienced Vet I took him to for a 2nd opinion and he did the xrays and drawer test as well, from all my research, it appears that that the TPLO or TTA bone cutting options will be the only type of surgeries to return him to full function after the relevant recovery period. They also have a rapid (2-3 days) return to weight bearing unlike the Lateral Suture Techniques which is important for my bad back :D and the research indicates bone healing is more efficient than ligament healing. My boy is a typical ball/toy obsessed Labrador who just loves fetching/retrieving and is extremely focussed and takes his fetching activities very seriously :laugh: and I was advised by the 2nd opinion vet, during the consult and also in his follow report, that if he has the modified Paatsama technique surgery that it would be prudent not to have him fetching/retrieving as there is strong evidence that the right cruciate may rupture in the future. I had already curtailed/stopped his fetching/retrieving/playing activities since he first pulled up lame and know that with conservative management and the modified Paatsama technique surgery option that fetching and highly energetic activities won't be happening which makes me very sad for him as fetching activities and energetic outings were the highlight of his day as they are for my other Lab boy. I have also been minding a friend's 3 year old Lab for a few weeks, who is very playful and fetching mad as well and I feel so bad putting my injured boy in the crate and taking the others outside to play fetch or taking them to the dog parks and other outings whilst he stays home. He understandably gets upset and also can't join in when the other two rumble and play rough, I have to keep him out of harm's way. Luckily they all love to lie down and play bitey faces and necks on the carpet and rugs in my office and family room, so at least he can partake in some play which isn't aggravating his injury or doing him any harm and I vigilantly monitor this play and interaction as I am home and he goes into the crate when I am not home. Even though prior to his injury he and my 5 year old Lab boy played a lot together and had lots of dog park and other outings, having our Lab visitor these last few weeks has really brought it home how much he is missing out on. The 3 of them get on so fabulously and genuinely love each others company and play so well together and I don't want to deprive him of all things that Labradors love to do so much, hence having to seriously consider these bone cutting surgery options. Anyway I am looking forward to the consult with David armed with my folder with all the info and questions I have compiled :laugh: Post surgery recovery will be a key topic of discussion with David as will potential of CCL injury in other leg and then I will followup with Physio treatment options which hopefully will include some hydrotherapy. Will give an update after my visit with David next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xyz Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I also wasn't meaning a debate, sorry if you took it like that!!! I work for specialist surgeons and see the difference in immediate recovery and long term prognosis from dogs that have surgery quite soon post rupture, vs dogs that owners have tried conservative treatment. My own lab had 1 episode of lameness over a weekend, followed by a day of not quite walking right, I suspected CCL rupture, (albeit very early!), GA xrays and straight to surgery (TTA) on the Monday! No lameness notable by Wednesday, -despite a RJ bandage, 6 weeks modified exercise (10 minute walks 3x daily, increasing to 30 mins 3x daily by 5 weeks and physio, and crated or tied at other times), then just 2-3 weeks of no rough play or jumping/twisting and was back at obedience at 8 weeks post op, and back in the show ring 11 weeks post op and a 100% leg!!( only slightly still visable shaved patch was epidural area, black dog and hair grew back really quickly!!!). Hard with 4 other dogs but quite manageable! Good luck with your consult, and good on you for getting all the information for your boy :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labadore Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) I also wasn't meaning a debate, sorry if you took it like that!!! I work for specialist surgeons and see the difference in immediate recovery and long term prognosis from dogs that have surgery quite soon post rupture, vs dogs that owners have tried conservative treatment. My own lab had 1 episode of lameness over a weekend, followed by a day of not quite walking right, I suspected CCL rupture, (albeit very early!), GA xrays and straight to surgery (TTA) on the Monday! No lameness notable by Wednesday, -despite a RJ bandage, 6 weeks modified exercise (10 minute walks 3x daily, increasing to 30 mins 3x daily by 5 weeks and physio, and crated or tied at other times), then just 2-3 weeks of no rough play or jumping/twisting and was back at obedience at 8 weeks post op, and back in the show ring 11 weeks post op and a 100% leg!!( only slightly still visable shaved patch was epidural area, black dog and hair grew back really quickly!!!). Hard with 4 other dogs but quite manageable! Good luck with your consult, and good on you for getting all the information for your boy :) I just wanted the thread to stay focussed on the Physio subject and not veer into the surgery arena whilst I was still doing research on the surgical options vs conservative management whilst still trying to get his allergies under control under the guidance of Linda Vogelnest at Sash. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't proceed with the surgery straight away as the allergies needed to get sorted first as the poor boy was battling chronic ear infections and skin irritations and came to me in a pretty anxious state after being bounced around a few homes He has had a rough trot and just as we were turning a corner on both the allergies and anxiety issues, he ruptures his CCL Anyway we had the consult with David Lidbetter last week (Wed) which was great as he answered all the many questions and addressed the concerns I had :D and a couple of days later, I booked him in for a TPLO which was originally scheduled for tomorrow. However, yesterday I had to reschedule to Tuesday next week as I am a bit concerned about some itchiness he still has on left side which is the same side of his ruptured CCL so he uses that leg to scratch himself and I need to give him another week for the itchiness to abate. He has essentially been on an elimination diet for a few months to find the food/combos that work best for his allergies and since the diagnosis of his ruptured CCL, I have put him back on the Hills prescription Z/D with Kangaroo which seems to work the best for him in dramatically reducing his skin irritations and level of itchiness and his chronic ear infections have been cleared up with treatment and regular ongoing maintenance, so hopefully an extra week will do the trick with the skin irritations. The TPLO recovery will be traumatic enough for him without having to deal with itchiness that he may not be able to scratch. Am monitoring him closely and hopefully the skin irritation and level of itchiness continue to subside and we can proceed with the TPLO surgery next Tuesday. :) Great news about your Lab's excellent outcome, very happy for you both Edited January 19, 2015 by labadore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xyz Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 He sounds like a really lucky dog to have found you! Good luck post op, it's really not that bad as long as they are crate trained :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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