Nipping

[JodyC]

Hi all,

I have a 13 month old male neutered miniature poodle who comes to school each day (I am an ESO) with me. Problem is he is nipping the smaller kids on the back of the calf. I initially thought it was more of a 'mouthing' than actual bite but now I'm not so sure. I feel He is being dominant as he does it or attempts to nip the smaller children when they are running in the playground. Murphy is now on his lead outside to prevent it happening again but I need to correct the behaviour!

Also my 14 month old granddaughter lives with us, he is fine with her, although she isn't actually running as yet.

Murphy has been handled, paws played with, had his tail pulled, ears played with etc since I got him to try to desensitise him and so far this appears to have worked well as he is very gentle with our granddaughter. He also loves to sleep in the kids laps when they are sitting on the floor in class.

He has a pretty good recall (not as good when he is distracted playing with other dogs, but I continue to work on this) he will walk at my heel on or off lead (I only do this in safe surroundings!) sits on command and I have taught Murphy not to take food from the children or my granddaughter (on occasion he has walked through the children sitting eating their lunch and is now not showing any interest! My gd recently was eating a sandwich and dropped it on the floor, Murphy then sat patiently waiting to be told he could have it!) I make Murphy sit and wait at the door and let him in last to try to establish 'pack order' whenever possible.

I also started dog training class but unfortunately I am no longer able to attend and also her advise was that Murphy would 'grow out' of this behaviour. I feel his biting is getting worse and also feel the issue needs to be addressed rather than 'hope' that he grows out of it!

Does anyone have any advice as to how to fix this? I hope this makes sense, just trying to give as much information as possible!

Many thanks in advance!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I've got no idea what an ESO is - and googling "school ESO" did not help.

Problem is he is nipping the smaller kids on the back of the calf. I initially thought it was more of a 'mouthing' than actual bite but now I'm not so sure.

Dogs do use their mouth like we use our hands but I think dogs putting their mouths on small children is not safe.

I feel He is being dominant as he does it or attempts to nip the smaller children when they are running in the playground.

I'm not sure about "dominant" - he does it because he gets excited and that's how excited puppies play with each other. If you don't like it - you need to do as you have done, put him on lead. Give him something else to do like a nice sit stay, or give him something to hold in his mouth.

If he accidentally connects with small children with his feet and claws - that feels the same as a nip so that's not ok either. Better to teach him sit still or come to you when children are running around.

I feel his biting is getting worse and also feel the issue needs to be addressed rather than 'hope' that he grows out of it!

I agree with this. I think it's an excitement thing - I also think it's rewarding in itself - the same as barking is with some dogs. Ie the more the dog gets to do the fun behaviour the more the dog wants to and will do the fun behaviour (eg chasing and nipping). He won't grow out of it if he is allowed to continue doing it - as you have noticed - it is rewarding and fun for him - so he will do it more.

What do you want him to be doing when you're outside? Staying with you? Limit his opportunity to chase with the lead and reward him for being with you and not trying to chase the children.

Have you crate trained him - having a nice safe crate to be when you can't be supervising might be helpful to keep him calm too.

Have you played the collar grab game with him? Once he's comfortable with having his collar grabbed - you've paired grabbing his collar with giving him a treat - many times until he leans into your hand when you reach out...

So if you have him on lead and he lunges after the kids - you grab and hold his collar (no treat) until he calms down and looks at you, and then you release the collar (but not the lead) and see what choice he makes. Repeat until he stops choosing to chase running children.

I do this with my dog with fence running. She likes to scold the cat on the other side of the fence. Sometimes she even bounces off the fence. I walk up to her "swiftly and deliberately" and I grab her collar and hold it until she calms down and then I release to see what choice she makes. I usually only have to do this once or twice at most and that sucks the fun out of it and she stops. If I was more consistent - she wouldn't start. But I don't mind if she evicts cats from my yard so there is a balance.

The kind of training you do to make him wait for permission to eat - is the same kind of training you do to get him to stay calmly with you and only run around when you give him permission. And maybe something more appropriate to chase and fetch like a toy or a ball.

And all training - you start somewhere easy with few distractions and when he understands what you want - then gradually introduce distractions one by one and do the training again with each new thing (including new places)...

hope that helps a bit.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[The Spotted Devil]

I agree with Mrs RB.

Kid - pup interactions should be in a controlled setting. Kids running around the playground = pup separation.

[VizslaMomma]

ESO = Educational Serivces Officer ?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

ESO = Educational Serivces Officer ?

Still none the wiser. Must be something special if she gets to bring the dog along to work. Most teachers don't get to do that. I am hoping someone will explain - getting curious now.

[VizslaMomma]

ESO = Educational Serivces Officer ?

Still none the wiser. Must be something special if she gets to bring the dog along to work. Most teachers don't get to do that. I am hoping someone will explain - getting curious now.

In the USA it used be non-teaching roles to aid teachers.

EG, preparing classrooms, say a science lab for lessons or art classes and doing admin work that did not take the (precious) time from teaching.

ANother duty would be checking the school roll of attendence.

[VizslaMomma]

Looks like the SA equivalent could be School Services Officer.

http://www.tafesa.edu.au/xml/profile/profile_OCC291.aspx

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Ooh - I think the name I'm familiar with is "teacher's aid"

And they're especially useful when the individuals in the class have vastly different learning abilities - ie some kids are way ahead or behind...

and this

School services officers also assist in the support of children with intellectual, physical and behavioural difficulties with their academic studies.

And the kids that need extra help (either to catch up or keep them from getting bored - ie more challenging work) - get a some sort of "individual learning plan" (except I think it's "ELP") that the teacher's aid can use to guide keeping those kids from distracting the rest of the class.

Ie the super bright and the super slow can both disrupt a class.

Still not sure where the poodle comes in but I wish there'd been a few dogs at my school. Closest we got was lab rats - and life did not end well for them. We certainly didn't get to make friends with those.

[JodyC]

Thank you for the replies! Sorry, an ESO is the new term for teachers aid.

Fortunately I only have 2 20 minute yard duties a week so he will be on the lead with me then. I was thinking it is a dominance thing but it does make sense that he is being excited by the kids playing! The Collar game sounds like a good idea to me! There are young children living next door to us so I could tempt him whilst they are running around but in a controlled environment to teach him.

Also I should point out Murphy has a great time at school, there are 4 other dogs, 2 of which he has plenty of opportunities to play with and do 'zoomies' with. I am trying to teach him that zoomie time is only when the kids are not in the room... Generally he is very well behaved and for the most part just wants to be with me (asleep next to me on the couch right now!)

Thanks again!

[JodyC]

Ooh - I think the name I'm familiar with is "teacher's aid"

And they're especially useful when the individuals in the class have vastly different learning abilities - ie some kids are way ahead or behind...

and this

School services officers also assist in the support of children with intellectual, physical and behavioural difficulties with their academic studies.

And the kids that need extra help (either to catch up or keep them from getting bored - ie more challenging work) - get a some sort of "individual learning plan" (except I think it's "ELP") that the teacher's aid can use to guide keeping those kids from distracting the rest of the class.

Ie the super bright and the super slow can both disrupt a class.

Still not sure where the poodle comes in but I wish there'd been a few dogs at my school. Closest we got was lab rats - and life did not end well for them. We certainly didn't get to make friends with those.

That is correct! Part of my job is working with a child who has a disability, I also do some intervention with young students who need extra help and have found that Murphy is helping by being in the room, sometimes as a 'reward' for my students working hard and also as a comfort to my students if they are struggling a bit.

[The Spotted Devil]

Yes it's amazing how kids will open up with an animal in the room...even adults are much more attentive when I take my cats/dogs/pups to lectures and tutes :)

[VizslaMomma]

Yes it's amazing how kids will open up with an animal in the room...even adults are much more attentive when I take my cats/dogs/pups to lectures and tutes :)

All the more important to get the dog trained to be kid friendly.

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I have to say I'm curious as to why there are the dogs at the school and which organisation did the temperament testing to ensure they would be safe in a school environment. I only say this as I work daily with dogs and kids and our dogs have to undergo extensive temperament testing and we have restrictions on what we can do with them based on each ones individual abilities/temperament. I'm suprised with how litigious people are towards dogs and potential bites with kids that the principal allows that many at the school, especially as they are the ones who will be legally liable for any issue.

And I mention that because your dog is showing a fairly major issue. Behaviour like that could get your dog classified as a menacing dog. And in a school I'd be really really cautious about where you let the dog go and what the environment is like. Personally I think the dog should not be off lead whenever there are children around. I knwo they mostly run in playgrounds, but having been in schools for the last 15 years I can guarantee they also run in classrooms and corridors (no matter how often you tell them not to!!). And I just worry for your dogs safety if something happens, and then there is also the follow up concern of your own relationships within the school if something happens. My girls doesn't go out to schools for this very reason - she will react and chase things that are moving. When we have kids with us she is on lead and they are all given very very clear instructions about not running.

I would make sure your dog is crate trained so that he can sit in a crate any time you cannot be giving him 100% attention while he is on lead with you. To eliminate the behaviour you have to make the fast movement of no value to him. In which case train him something else to do (sit, drop, look at you) and make that thing to be of such high value that there is no value at all in the moving thing. And do this in every environment you possinbly can. He isn't going to grow out of it, he needs to be trained out of it. And until he is 100% reliable in all environments and circumstances I would not have him off lead in the school environment at all.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi JodyC

Thank for the update and the explanation.

Always look at what you've got and what you want and figure a way to get from where you're at with a dog, to where you want to be. It's always easier to train a dog to do something - than to train it "not to do something".

I did train my dog to ignore joggers (she's a heeler - she loves nipping...), but it did involve keeping her on lead when there were joggers around. Now a days I have to watch out for "weird joggers" who make puffing possum wheezey noises - because - that's a different level of "distraction"... The more you can practice - with the more different situations the better. (junior) footy training can be good for source of many kids running around.

I have a primary school near where I live, and they share a public park with everybody - so I was able to get some supervised encounters with my dog and the kids there. It did freak out the people on yard duty tho. And I was pretty careful - the last thing anyone wants is a chomped kid. Fortunately my dog has lots and lots of signals she makes when she needs her space. The main thing I have to keep repeating is "She is not a toy". And "would you like your eyes poked? no? neither does she." and in the world of "do land" - pat here, like this, excellent... (and then there is one blissed out dog).

And with things that dogs like to do like sniffing, and zoomies - "premack" them ie have a permission to zoomie word... and if the dog steals a zoomie or sniff - interrupt, get attention back, wait 30 seconds (less for a puppy) to avoid "back chaining" then give permission if it's safe to do so.

Premack works well on children too. "I will only sit next to you if you sit still(ish) "...

[raineth]

I am really beyond amazed that there are so many dogs in the school, and that they are ok with you bringing him a long even though he nips the kids, I guess he must not be actually doing any damage?

I think the best bet is to have him on the crate or on lead when you are in the playground. I wouldn't advise using the neighbour kids to practice with, without the help of a very experienced trainer or behaviourist; as it could easily go wrong.

[JodyC]

I should have explained better Murphy, has not marked any of the kids. It really has been more that he is 'mouthing' them but I fear he may actually bite a child.

I am desperately trying to fix the problem or else he will no longer come to school with me. There has only ever been a problem in the yard and he will now always be on the lead when outside and when ever needed in class. I have never had ANY problems with Murphy whilst he is on the lead but i need to fix the problem, not just avoid any further biting as we have our young granddaughter living with us.

Re-reading my reply I have worded it badly, what I am hoping to achieve with the neighbours kids is to have Murphy focus on me and learn to ignore the kids in a controlled environment but obviously without ANY risk to my neighbours kids!

I should also add we also go to great lengths to educate our kids on behaviour around dogs, they are never aloud to pat a sleeping dog, no faces near a dogs face, no going near a dog who is eating etc plus we have professionals come to our school (with their own dog) yearly to educate the kids too.

[Rebanne]

simple fix is to crate the dog inside while you are outside. I would be beyond ropable if my child came home and said the dog bit me. What about the kids that are scared of dogs or allergic? A dog in the school ground would have been enough for one child I knew to end up seriously ill from fear.

Running around in a playground with a bunch of kids is totally different to being in your home with your granddaughter. And again easily fixed by separating playtimes.

[Dogsfevr]

I think you need to find a trainer experienced in what you want to achieve not you fumbling along at the risk of the dog & kids especially given if your dog does bite it will be reported & your dog will be labelled via the council & above all the manners of your dog is not teaching the children anything

To be honest no sane person would allow a dog to run free with kids that age in a school trained or not & the people who come yearly to educate kids would probably agree .

Dogs & kids is a special combo in all honesty the dogs there should have passed a trained programme that accesses them on the suitability of being in such a special environment not owners taking there pets in