" Bred To Death"?

[sandgrubber]

This is a deviation to the "Puppy Farms" topic that has been running in the News forum.

People seem to talk a lot about bitches being "bred to death". I associate these words with regulations limiting a bitch to three or four litters.

My experience as a breeder tells me that well cared for bitches love having puppies, and the fourth and fifth litter does them no harm whatsoever. Personally, I've never pushed it to a sixth or seventh litter, but I certainly wouldn't condemn someone who did.

As I understand the science:

1) the over-use of popular studs does and has done far more harm to the genetic diversity of different dog breeds than does using a bitch to produce, say, 50 pups.

2) breeding back on back is actually healthier for the reproductive system than long pauses between litters . . . presuming the bitch receives good nutrition, gets exercise, and lives a happy dog life between litters. Breeding until a bitch is six or seven years (for a breed with an expected lifespan of 10 or 15 years) causes no health problems, though it may end out with saggy boobs that don't do well in shows, and fertility is likely to begin declining.

As I understand the breeder aspects, excellent brood bitches are few and far between. By this, I mean you may have to run on several pick of litter bitch pups and do a few trial litters from some of them before you get a girl who has excellent conformation, excellent temperament, and passes health tests . . . and on top of that, free whelps without problems and is a good mother . . . and throws quality pups. Of course, this will vary, depending on lines and breeds, but you get the general picture. If you find that rare, ideal brood bitch, why not give her all the love and care you can, and let her have several litters? That is NOT breeding her to death!!!!

Edited December 24, 2014 by sandgrubber

[JRG]

[BlaznHotAussies]

I was telling a co-worker about a brood bitch I know who has been "retired" from having puppies & is such an awesome mum etc. she'll look after puppies that aren't even hers. And to my surprise the co-worker was like "Aww that's so sad! She doesn't get to do what she loves to do any more, don't you think that's a shame?" I was actually surprised, I personally feel like they must find it annoying haha because far out I wouldn't want to have a heap of puppies hanging off me!! But yeah she does have a point, she obviously enjoys being a mummy-dog :)

I thought it was interesting :)

[Christina]

Good point.

Of course it depends on the individual dog & breed but the maximum here in SA is 6 litters.

Leaving a bitch entire & hardly ever breeding her is not so good for her either.

I have a 9 year old here who has had 6 litters. Last mating 5 days after her 8th birthday. She is desexed now naturally. Popping every litter out within the hour,3 or 4 pups, she was healthy, happy, trouble free with everything & is still in great shape, energetic as anything & has no saggy boobs.

With a breed that has large litters or a shorter lifespan I wouldn't do 6 litters but 2 to 4 being the average litter size & a lifespan that often goes 15 years or more I think its down to breeders common sense & knowledge of their dogs.

I don't consider her bred to death & she is probably in better health & shape than many who have never been bred at all.

There is no exact right number & we do have a maximum allowed as a guideline.

[Purdie]

Does breeding of older bitches increase the risk of health problems with the pups.?

Has there been any research done to compare the health of pups from young bitches and then the pups from older bitches.?

[sandgrubber]

Does breeding of older bitches increase the risk of health problems with the pups.?

Has there been any research done to compare the health of pups from young bitches and then the pups from older bitches.?

I doubt the research has been done. It would be a difficult study to design and very expensive to execute. In the end you'd have some information about one breed or a few breeds . .. many many health factors vary greatly between breeds, and even between bloodlines within a breed. Who would sponsor such research?

On the other hand, many breeders prefer older studs for health reasons. If an old guy is still vigorous at 8 or 10 or 12, you have a strong indication of good overall health.

In my opinion, an older bitch who has thrown a few litters has the advantage that you have an idea of what she throws. If the breeder is conscientious about keeping tabs on the pups they place, the health information gained via this route is (IMO again) of the same order of importance as basic health testing. For example, it's possible that a bitch has good hip/elbow scores but tends to throw pups with HD or OCD. You can't know this on the first or second litter unless litters are spaced more than a year apart.

Edited December 24, 2014 by sandgrubber

[Little Gifts]

I've always considered that term in relation to bybers and puppy farmers who basically breed a hitch until she either stops falling pregnant from matings or birthing viable pups. My foster failures mother was 15 when she was surrendered with her 3 month old pups. From memory she had dementia. No idea how many litters she had had.

[cowanbree]

My stance on this is not so much it is bad for the bitch to have more than 3 litters but rather if you are only breeding for yourself and the betterment of the breed why would you need more litters than that? If she has not produced a suitable puppy to carry on with in 3 litters than I would have to say she is not producing and should be spayed in most cases.

Or are we talking about breeding for the pet market?

[Tapua]

As Sandgrubber says quality bitches are few and far between. I think the issue of sound bitches are not just their sound conformation but their ability to whelp with minimal intrusion, bitches who can nurture and feed her brood - given that all care and nutrition is available for mum to do so. In purchaser of the brood bitch the purchaser needs to ask the breeder the right questions. They need to say they plan to breed to the breeder. They need to ask what was their pup's dams ability to fall pregnant, whelp and raise a litter. Personally I don't care if the bitch breeds beautiful pups if she cannot mate, gestate, whelp and raise her litter without extreme interference from people then she is not a good brood bitch. (For people with exotic breeds that do need assistance an any of these areas - I am not talking about these breeds) but for Labs, Kelpies, GSD's, Cocker's, Springer's and a myriad of other breeds surely there is the opportunity to ask the questions and seek the lines from breeders who consider the quality of their brood bitches important. Fortunately I had a fantastic breeder when I started who knew I was going to breed to and was fine if I asked questions about the dam's ability to mate, gestate, whelp & raise a litter. In other breeds I have experienced breeders who were mortified if I asked and defensive. As to how many litters to a bitch. Broadly speaking I like to breed the first litter between 2 & 3 years old. I like to assess the quality of the pups from that mating at 12 - 18 months then consider if I breed her again. I might consider a 5th litter from an exceptional bitch but most will stop breeding by their 4th litter. But any bitch who did not like to raise her pups or produced unsound pups would not get a second mating. They are rehomed in a loving home. And yes some of my are show titled or compete at the Royal or State Speciality Shows, have proven retrieval ability, are DNA tested, hip, elbow scored and eye tested. Non of this is worth doing IMO unless the brood bitch is a good dam.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Tapua

[Tapua]

My stance on this is not so much it is bad for the bitch to have more than 3 litters but rather if you are only breeding for yourself and the betterment of the breed why would you need more litters than that? If she has not produced a suitable puppy to carry on with in 3 litters than I would have to say she is not producing and should be spayed in most cases.

Or are we talking about breeding for the pet market?

For show or 'betterment of the breed' breeders that may be a valid argument but for breeds used as service dogs, drug, bomb, biosecurity and stock work dogs - IMO the brood bitch standard needs to be high.

[dancinbcs]

I think the term "bred to death" applies to puppy farm bitches who are bred from the first season, which in smaller breeds can be from 6 months, then every season until their health breaks down or they are no longer profitable. Then they are shot or if they are lucky they get a green dream.

Breeding well cared for bitches from about 18 months, an average of once a year, is a very different proposition. Wild canines, only cycle once a year so while a couple of back to back litters do no harm if the bitch is fit, nature really only means for dogs to have one litter a year. The age they can start breeding and be bred up to vary considerably for different breeds so there can be no generalisation. I have a breed that is often not bred until 3-5 years and can easily still be bred at 9 and even 10 years but for a large/giant breed that would be out of the question. Small breeds can be bred from about 12 months but again the giant breeds are far too immature and still growing at that age. How much having a litter drags a bitch down depends on how easily she whelps and how many puppies she raises. Raising a litter of 14 is going to have a much greater effect on a bitch than just raising 2-3 puppies. A small/medium bitch may have 20 puppies in total from 5 litters whereas a large bitch might have that many in just two litters.

The number of litters a bitch has is also about why you need to breed many litters from her. Most breeders breed to get a puppy to continue the next generation. If you know what you are doing and have a little bit of luck, you can manage to do that by only breeding one litter from each bitch. If you always breed in order to keep a puppy, what are you going to do with one from each of 6 litters from each bitch you own. A bitch that has less litters has more time to enjoy being part of the family, going to shows, trials or whatever you do with your dogs rather than being stuck at home raising babies.

[Dogsfevr]

Personally i see no good reason for 4/5/6 litters from one bitch no matter how good a mum she is ,the only person it benefits is the human .

3 is max here 4 would be because the most amazing stud opportunity came a long & thus far that hasn't happened .

Personally i would hope that the 1/2 litters aren't breed as tests to see what issues come up & that alot of thought went n the first time to not produce issues or at the very lest minimize & given one would be using a different stud dog each time or atleast no more than twice .one would hope its not 4//6 litters with the same parents because then all i would see is a BYB

cowanbree i would suggest breeding for the pet market because as you say from 3 litters you should have got something amazing to hopefully run on & continue with & as already mentioned why would you keep something from the same dam 4/5/6 times .

Dancinbcs i agree a bitch needs to have a life aswell not just sit in the whelping box

For show or 'betterment of the breed' breeders that may be a valid argument but for breeds used as service dogs, drug, bomb, biosecurity and stock work dogs - IMO the brood bitch standard needs to be high.

Many drug dogs are rescue dogs & the only bomb dog originally in Australia was a rescued pound dog ,many service dogs are also rescues

[Tapua]

'Many drug dogs are rescue dogs & the only bomb dog originally in Australia was a rescued pound dog ,many service dogs are also rescues'

Yes Showdog they were and some are fantastic rescue dogs doing the jobs ably but due to recent policy changes in a number of rescue & RSPCA pounds are not offered tot he service currently compromising the demand for the dog in the future. Pure-bred or X bred the failure rate of any dog trained as a bomb dog is >95%. The service dogs such as diabetes alert, guide, autism etc - while there are exceptions to the rule - prefer dogs that come from lines that have proven temperament and health clearance and trained from a puppy. Finding the right dogs for the job is not as simple as people assume. It has been a steep learning curve for us to learn what is suitable and worth breeding from and what is not regarding the behavioural ability plus trying to keep in mind type and conformation. The majority of breeders (rightly so) select for low drive and the because they are breeding companion/show dogs. All the puppy pre-school set ups aim to minimise or teach people to not reinforce working drive etc - again appropriately. But when those traits are needed to meet a genuine need for say stock work or gundog retrieval or military purposes then of course the priorities are different.

Do you get what I am saying - someone talk earlier for the 'demand' from the pet market well there is a demand for sound, genetically healthy, intelligent dogs for a purposeful life.... and it is very hard to find dogs for the job let alone find breeding stock to keep producing. It has taken 7 years to breed & select 4 bitches that have the traits we look for. 5 years to select a suitable dog. It is one of the reason Gundog and certain stock dog people avoid show or companion lines because not including ability in a breeding program compromises ability in the progeny. IMO the market has different needs. If a breeder chooses to focus on the companion/show market that is legitimate , it is sensible to select from lines that have a low drive, and for the breeder it is easier to manage the dogs. However if they choose the obedience/stock work/service dogs market that is also legitimate. But seeking breeders who priorities healthy equally to ability in their breeding program is a challenge to say the least. Neither is 'right or wrong' it is just different demands.

[Christina]

My stance on this is not so much it is bad for the bitch to have more than 3 litters but rather if you are only breeding for yourself and the betterment of the breed why would you need more litters than that? If she has not produced a suitable puppy to carry on with in 3 litters than I would have to say she is not producing and should be spayed in most cases.

Or are we talking about breeding for the pet market?

For show or 'betterment of the breed' breeders that may be a valid argument but for breeds used as service dogs, drug, bomb, biosecurity and stock work dogs - IMO the brood bitch standard needs to be high.

Ok I will put my suit on here & ask

If you only breed for yourself & interpret this as for the betterment of the breed how on earth are pet people suppose to get a well bred, health tested pedigree dog ?

Isn't it for the betterment of the breed to also promote your breed as pets as well as for show & breeding ?

I am not talking here about breeding dogs to death, churning out 6 litters of 12 pups from a dog or over the given canine associations limits.

Here in SA they are only about 6 registered toy poodle breeders so if we all had about 2 litters per dog producing 2 to 4 pups each over the dogs long life span from the small number of dogs we own as non are large kennel breeders it leaves a huge demand for puppy farming & no option but pet shop dogs, which is where many people go or they accept an "oodle" because of stupid marketing trends or because that is all they can get.

Where else can people get a very popular breed ?

The dog I bred 6 times produced excellent sound puppies & I kept track of the pet litters for years before letting a bitch go for breeding from the each of the last 2 litters to a trusted person. Myself & the breeder who has them has the gt grandparents from one side, well into old age, I have the sires, one age 12 now & have contact & knowledge of lifespans & health of the other lines. I wanted to be very sure about them & desexed all the other pups in the pet homes. I was not looking at what would get a title, the conformation of the dogs was good if anyone wanted to show a desexed dog,I was looking at health, temperament & longevity.

So I think that I am breeding responsibly & for the betterment & promotion of the breed as are many others who do similar.

[Sandra777]

Lets all think of the best producing bitch in their breed - not the best one you personally have had, the one that produced the most progeny you personally admire and desire.

THAT bitch should have as many litters as she humanely can (so 4-5-6 depending on the breed) as she is one of those special ones who can carry the breed forward.

If you are the owner of this paragon but only breed "for yourself" you are in effect damaging the breed by not allowing more of her offspring out there with other committed and ethical breeders.

There is a huge difference between breeding for yourself, breeding for the breed and breeding for the pet market.

There is no shame in breeding a litter and allowing the best one or two (or three or four) to go to other responsible, dedicated people while you keep nothing, because likely you will use a son of one of those pups to bring back into your programme further down the track.

Breeding a litter and flicking the whole lot off to people who have no intentions of doing the right thing is a totally different scenario.

[Steve]

Really all depends on what you class breeding for the betterment of the breed.For me there is no point what ever in breeding champions or working dogs or any other dog if they cant reproduce without intervention. Part of my selection is good brood bitches.

[Steve]

ive had one of my breeds for over 40 years and never ever in the first 20 years did I ever hear of one of the breed having to have a C section. Then all of a sudden one in two is needing a C section .Its taken me over a decade to say my bitches now dont need C section - I havent had one for about 9and a half years. Im not one bit ashamed to say for a period of time I worked with my vet and deliberately selected for bitches who could free whelp. If I sell a bitch for breeding the person taking it can be pretty confident that they ar starting a place where they dont have to watch the pain and drama that comes with a Csection - others may not see that as bettering the breed but I do. By the way in there were loads of champs too I just wouldnt look at a bitch for keeping no matter how good she looked if her Mum was no good at the whole reproduction process.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Steve

[_PL_]

I've always considered that term in relation to bybers and puppy farmers who basically breed a hitch until she either stops falling pregnant from matings or birthing viable pups. My foster failures mother was 15 when she was surrendered with her 3 month old pups. From memory she had dementia. No idea how many litters she had had.

Same. And it happens.

And whilst I agree that it's good for buyers to be able to own nice examples of pedigree..

.....Unfortunately puppy farmers are getting pedigree dogs to breed from. So if breeders are doing more than breeding for themselves and aren't desexing/sterilising be prepared to see poorly bred pups... and dogs from your lines being literally 'bred to death'. Then cop the fallout and bad name onto you as registered breeders via farmed purebreds with health problems.

e.g FYI Next upcoming 'fad' breed is French Bulldogs and their crosses. Eventually all sorts of mixes will make it to the PTS List.

[Tapua]

My stance on this is not so much it is bad for the bitch to have more than 3 litters but rather if you are only breeding for yourself and the betterment of the breed why would you need more litters than that? If she has not produced a suitable puppy to carry on with in 3 litters than I would have to say she is not producing and should be spayed in most cases.

Or are we talking about breeding for the pet market?

For show or 'betterment of the breed' breeders that may be a valid argument but for breeds used as service dogs, drug, bomb, biosecurity and stock work dogs - IMO the brood bitch standard needs to be high.

Ok I will put my suit on here & ask

If you only breed for yourself & interpret this as for the betterment of the breed how on earth are pet people suppose to get a well bred, health tested pedigree dog ?

Isn't it for the betterment of the breed to also promote your breed as pets as well as for show & breeding ?

I am not talking here about breeding dogs to death, churning out 6 litters of 12 pups from a dog or over the given canine associations limits.

Here in SA they are only about 6 registered toy poodle breeders so if we all had about 2 litters per dog producing 2 to 4 pups each over the dogs long life span from the small number of dogs we own as non are large kennel breeders it leaves a huge demand for puppy farming & no option but pet shop dogs, which is where many people go or they accept an "oodle" because of stupid marketing trends or because that is all they can get.

Where else can people get a very popular breed ?

The dog I bred 6 times produced excellent sound puppies & I kept track of the pet litters for years before letting a bitch go for breeding from the each of the last 2 litters to a trusted person. Myself & the breeder who has them has the gt grandparents from one side, well into old age, I have the sires, one age 12 now & have contact & knowledge of lifespans & health of the other lines. I wanted to be very sure about them & desexed all the other pups in the pet homes. I was not looking at what would get a title, the conformation of the dogs was good if anyone wanted to show a desexed dog,I was looking at health, temperament & longevity.

So I think that I am breeding responsibly & for the betterment & promotion of the breed as are many others who do similar.

No flame suit needed I applaud the ethical breeders who know that people have a right to healthy companions dogs. Isn't that all part of the picture I know many Showies who are deeply passionate about their breed and do their utmost to enhance their breeds health, temperament and conformation - I just wish more would prioritise ability as well in their breeding program though I understand why they don't. It must be so difficult with so few breeders in your state and I would suspect a limited gene pool to select from in your breed. I know many who have to look interstate and spend huge amounts bringing dogs in form overseas to keep diversification & vigour in their gene pool. Despite the many who are deeply committed and passionate about their chosen breed there will always be people who are dodgy and that unfortunately is a human being problem not the fault of the dogs.

[cowanbree]

While I personally don't believe I would breed a litter solely to sell to another breeder as raising a litter properly is such a huge commitment for me I wouldn't judge another breeder who did as long as they were not breeding solely for the pet market or selling to other breeders who did.

A sheltie litter has on average 3-6 puppies. If you are extremely lucky there is one, perhaps 2 with show potential so the remaining puppies are available to loving companion homes. I don't consider my breed difficult to obtain a well breed health tested pet puppy so there is no need to produce puppies solely with that aim and I believe this to be the case in most breeds. You may have to wait a few mths for a suitable puppy but that isn't a bad thing.

As to the discussion re betterment of the breed, I also agree that breeding soundness is part of that - but only part of the entire breeding decision. My dogs must be sound examples of the breed that are typey, be health tested and be sound in mind and body before they are considered suitable. Looking round my lounge I have 9 shelties, 4 of them have been bred, 4 are either desexed or will never be bred and 1 is still too young to decide.