Which Breeds Come In Working Lines?

[Mal1]

Hi cavNrott,

Never thought my old Rottweiler female was a great looking dog but her drive, strength and nerve were incredible.

She was only about 34-36kg boy could she run, nearly as fast as current Malinois.

[JRG]

One of the problems is that often the breed standards are not really specific and fit a range of types.

A number of years ago I was asked to take a working bred girl to the breed lecture for aspiring show judges. It was most informative and at the end of the night, the consensus of opinion was that the working girl fitted the breed standard better than the show bred girl!

Equally, the fashions in the ring change and what was judged to be exceptional twenty years ago might not get a look in in 2014

[cavNrott]

Funny you should say that Mal. I thought my old girl was an absolute stunner at the time but looking back at her pics now she was not the raving beauty I thought she was but she was a solid, well rounded girl. Courageous, steady nerve...she had it all.

[Mal1]

Here's picture of my working line Malinois (had short and long coat in the litter).

[superminty]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the benefit of breeding working line dogs to show dogs is to ensure the structure and look remain inside the breed standard? To make sure the working dog still looks like a kelpie rather than losing that aesthetic aspect and looking like something else altogether.

IMO, the moment you start selecting for "look", you are making a compromise. Structure is different - in kelpies you have long legged, rangy dogs that have correct structure for droving work, and lighter framed dogs more suited to paddock work etc. I have two pure kelpies - one is above knee height, weighs 25kg and is an upright, casual worker and the other hits mid shin, is 13kg and is a compact little creepy thing. They both look like kelpies to me :) There are many different jobs and many different types, and some of them don't "look" like kelpies - but genetically they are pure. Your average working line breeder couldn't care less what the dog looks like (provided structure is sound). So there is little incentive to follow a standard that restricts what the dog can look like.

My main issue with the breeding of working kelpies is the lack of focus on temperament, but that is a whole other argument...

Edited December 5, 2014 by superminty

[Guest Clover]

Whose to say that the show lines are the correct type though SC? I look at some show line dogs and they appear to be heavy set with an awful lot of coat (ie pretty coat being the most important thing).

I have always wondered where the huge amount of coat has come from. Not really practical for a working dog & maintaining it would be a nightmare.

[DeltaCharlie]

[

He also looks quite a bit different to the sporting aussie that was posted earlier. I would call them "sporting lines" not working.

Not sure why they would be called sporting lines? They are working lines, the dogs are bred to work and they do work every day. They are also Main Registered.

Karen has to come to Australia from the UK and brought her lines with her. A working dog will evolve through careful breeding to better suit the conditions and task at hand. These lines are UK based, not American, so it would make sense that the lines have begun to look a lot more like a BC, as they are bred to work in similar conditions to those which the BC was originally bred for. Does that make sense?

I guess the issue with using a standard to judge a working dog is that they are not 1 size fits all. You would need a different standard for a dog that works the paddock, a dog that works the yard, a dog bred for droving, a dog bred for tending, a dog that works cattle, a dog that works sheep, an allrounder dog, etc.

[moosmum]

At the risk of opening a can of worms...... I'm always a bit confused about working lines vs show lines - wouldn't a breed be a breed be a breed and shouldn't they all fall under the same breed standard? For example shouldn't a border collie be a border collie - there is one breed standard so there should be just one type, one border collie, and that's it? Why should there be such a big difference between show and working lines? Shouldn't there just be one type that everyone sticks too - the one true breed type? Show borders should be able to work stock, and working borders should be able to show. Why should there be such a big difference in temperament? (and not talking about the border collie specifically but all breeds that have working vs show lines, just using it as an example). I'm not wording this well enough.. but I hope somebody understands what I mean LOL. Not trying to start a debate - I honestly just want to learn more about it. Have always wondered why there needs to be such a difference.

Idealy, yes. There should be only the one standard that includes both working and show lines.

The way the K.Cs constitution is written ensures that K.C breeders as a body will breed for the show ring environment 1st and foremost, tho' individuals may strive for more- Its the K.C/ showring environment that gets the kudos. There is no effective recognition of the many other environments out side of the K.Cs that contribute to the development of a breed, such as working homes, pets or other service to man.

Had the constitution been written differently,I believe there would be far more variety within breeds,enabling them to cater to the many different home envirionments people provide even within breeds. The differences would be more acceptable because the standard would be subject to a far broader scrutiny with the whole of environmental possibilies taken into account, with greater encouragment to be catered for.

A show ring win would not be seen as the only true measure of a breeders sucess, but the icing on the cake.

I believe the general public would be wiser too, on the selection of a dog and the importance of finding a breeder who can meet their own individual needs. There would be more understanding that an individuals purpose and goals have a place in any breeding program.

Without that tolerance of these environmental influences on breeds within the K.Cs, we see breeds split into smaller groups when ever there is debate on what should or should not be acceptable with in a a K.C recognised breed.

Edited December 5, 2014 by moosmum

[LisaCC]

Sorry DC excuse my terminology. Does it make more sense if I said 'performance' I didn't mean sporting register.

[dancinbcs]

That makes sense DeltaCharlie, thank you very much. I wonder if we should be striving to achieve that ideal world - getting the Australian shows to accept the different coat types and also breeding our working line border collies to try to ensure they still look like a border collie? Could we not breed a dog focusing on both aspects without having to choose one or is that difficult genetic-wise? As for people having access to a more laid-back border collie from show lines I can't help but think, if someone doesn't want the work ethic of a border collie, perhaps they shouldn't get a border collie..... but working dogs should also come with an off switch so they are not hyper bouncing off the walls all the time? I don't know what the middle ground is. I completely agree with you that temperament should be priority. However I think form is also important as without good structure a working dog would not be able to work all day anyway and that's where the show ring assessment could help.

Sorry I don't know much about the whole thing, I don't show neither do I work stock so I am perhaps being too naive. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, it's all very interesting!

When I started with show Borders in the early 80s it was very common for show and working dogs to come from the same litter. My first bitch came from a rural kennel that were 2nd generation showing dogs and poultry so they showed their dogs and sold the rest of the litters to local farmer to work. Pet Borders were pretty uncommon and most not used for work or show were obedience dogs. Long before the ANKC started registering Borders there were working registries for working sheepdogs and this is where the foundation stock of the ANKC dogs come from so they are the same lines. Over the years the working owners opted to only register with one of several working registries or not register at all and many of the early registered dogs have a lot of unknown dogs behind them which may have been any sort of working sheepdog. Early in the 20th century BC and Kelpies were crossed here to get the best working dogs and the progeny registered as whichever breed they most resembled. In the US it is more common to find a mix of Border and Beardie if you go back to the same era and probably a lot of the unregistered ones behind the US working dogs were early Aussie types too. You can find Kelpies behind pretty much every ANKC Border and most of the working lines too if they are from lines going back that far in Aust. The working dogs split into general farm dogs and three sheep trialling dogs and the two are very different with the trial dogs being much stronger eyed with a very particular style of working. The same happens in working Kelpies. The serious triallers imported dogs with this particular skill to breed on from as there is little practice for this type of dog on a typical Aust farm that differs so much from the British Highlands the dogs originated from or the NZ high runs where the breed is also used. There has been much transmigration over the years to and from NZ as well. If you breed only for working ability, breed type is easily lost but most working them don't care as all they want is for the dogs to work. Similarly if you breed for breed type first with a closed registry which the ANKC dogs became, you will get a very set type but working ability will lessen in some lines as some dogs without working ability will be bred and perpetuate the problem. All borders should show work instinct and most still do even if they lack the style of a 3 sheep trial dog. Working or show bred, you still get the odd lazy dog that really isn't interested in running around much but in the working lines, those dogs do not get bred from and in fact many are shot. Borders should never be bred as pets even though many are pets. It is their unique nature that should appeal to any owner. The long coats are a hindrance with grass seeds in particular so working long coats tend to get a rough haircut but the coat never grows thick when a dog really works so coat density isn't an issue. In the UK many of the working trial dogs could still step into any show ring as a lot of the farmers there treasure the look of the breed as well but here the attitude seems to be that they cannot work if they are also beautiful which is just crazy. There are now quite a few recent imported dual registered ISDS/ANKC dogs and their progeny working here that will hopefully be bred into the show lines. Now there are also specialised agility lines bred for jumping ability which is not required in either a show dog or a working sheep dog.

They are a very versatile breed that can be adapted to many uses and specialised breeding enhances these abilities. If you wanted to you could breed for them to retrieve or lure course as well as some dogs will do these things. Above all they should all look like one breed in basic structure and the best of all registries do share the same basic sound structure. They should be moderate in size, and bone and have the ability to move with stealth and that requires a lot of balanced angulation at both ends. They should be sound coming and going and all move with their head down at a trot. A very distinctive breed feature. They all require a fairly wide skull for brain room, eyes with good forward and peripheral vision and ears with some lift to be able to hear well. Where each type differs is in leg to height ratio and how much body they have with the agility dogs being longest in leg and lightest in body. They all need to be longer than tall and the structure above the elbow should be common to all with a long ribcage to allow for plenty of heart and lung room. Apart from our ANKC breed standard that has missed out on many of the colours (which we are trying to fix), colour and markings don't matter in any pursuit. There are no prescribed markings for a Border even for the showring but the Irish spotting pattern does breed fairly true most of the time. As all the original ANKC registered dogs were rough/long coats and they cannot carry smooth coat, smooth was never included in the ANKC breed standard. There is currently some push from the sheep triallers to have it added in now to allow for smooth coated imports and that may go to a vote in the future.

It doesn't matter what breed, when you breed for any purpose some traits, not required for that purpose will diminish. So if you breed for work, type will suffer in some dogs, if you breed for type working ability in some dogs will suffer. If you breed for colour and markings, everything that matters will suffer. Even if you try to breed out a health problem everything else will suffer.

Edited December 6, 2014 by dancinbcs

[goldenluv]

I've said this before but there are variations in working lines too - needs change and so the dog changes. The US field bred ESS are different from those in the UK/NZ/Oz because they need a taller dog to cope with the heavy cover.

As mentioned you don't want a Lab mad for retrieving as a Guide Dog either

If a retriever is that mad for retrieving its uncontrollable that is a wrong temperament!

my golden boy is on the go and loves retrieving and obedience but is easy to live with

and his dad is a Sup CH and mum is a Gr CH

these dogs where breed for a job and they should be able to do that job And do well in the show ring!

not like our poor cocker spaniel half hour run in a park and I'm an hour grooming the knots out of the coat :-(

the flushing instinct is still there but the coat is wrong :-( for what they where breed to do!

[Agility Dogs]

It doesn't matter what breed, when you breed for any purpose some traits, not required for that purpose will diminish. So if you breed for work, type will suffer in some dogs, if you breed for type working ability in some dogs will suffer. If you breed for colour and markings, everything that matters will suffer. Even if you try to breed out a health problem everything else will suffer.

This is a great post. Thanks!!

[Steph M]

I've said this before but there are variations in working lines too - needs change and so the dog changes. The US field bred ESS are different from those in the UK/NZ/Oz because they need a taller dog to cope with the heavy cover.

As mentioned you don't want a Lab mad for retrieving as a Guide Dog either

If a retriever is that mad for retrieving its uncontrollable that is a wrong temperament!

my golden boy is on the go and loves retrieving and obedience but is easy to live with

and his dad is a Sup CH and mum is a Gr CH

these dogs where breed for a job and they should be able to do that job And do well in the show ring!

not like our poor cocker spaniel half hour run in a park and I'm an hour grooming the knots out of the coat :-(

the flushing instinct is still there but the coat is wrong :-( for what they where breed to do!

Easy to live with doesn't mean would make a good guide dog. My retriever loves his retrieving and is great at home but he would make a craphouse guide dog. Haha.

There may well be dogs that could fit all, but I bet they are few and far between.

[The Spotted Devil]

I've said this before but there are variations in working lines too - needs change and so the dog changes. The US field bred ESS are different from those in the UK/NZ/Oz because they need a taller dog to cope with the heavy cover.

As mentioned you don't want a Lab mad for retrieving as a Guide Dog either

If a retriever is that mad for retrieving its uncontrollable that is a wrong temperament!

my golden boy is on the go and loves retrieving and obedience but is easy to live with

and his dad is a Sup CH and mum is a Gr CH

these dogs where breed for a job and they should be able to do that job And do well in the show ring!

not like our poor cocker spaniel half hour run in a park and I'm an hour grooming the knots out of the coat :-(

the flushing instinct is still there but the coat is wrong :-( for what they where breed to do!

I did say Guide Dog not show ring. I have handled Labs bred specifically for retrieving and worked with GDV. A dog can't be good at everything!

Do you shoot over your Golden or trial? Every sport can promote extremes.

[DeltaCharlie]

Sorry DC excuse my terminology. Does it make more sense if I said 'performance' I didn't mean sporting register.

Not sure, it still sounds as though you are saying the dogs are bred for performance or dog sports rather than for their ability to work. Working ethic in those dogs is still paramount, if people source them for performance rather than work it shouldn't be held against them. There are working people who will not sell their dogs to agility homes for fear of having their reputation tarnished. Even though the characteristics (structure, work ethic, flexibility/agility) of a good working dog actually lend themselves quite well to dog sports.

[espinay2]

T

Posting pics as requested (hopefully if the iPad cooperates). Pics are of the same dog. In my breed they should be able to do it all. No distinction.

Darn it isn't cooperating. Have to try something else ....

Seems I can't add pics from iPad (aarrrgghhhh!!)

Edited December 6, 2014 by espinay2

[superminty]

It doesn't matter what breed, when you breed for any purpose some traits, not required for that purpose will diminish. So if you breed for work, type will suffer in some dogs, if you breed for type working ability in some dogs will suffer. If you breed for colour and markings, everything that matters will suffer. Even if you try to breed out a health problem everything else will suffer.

This is a great post. Thanks!!

Precisely my point. There is always a compromise.

[goldenluv]

Do you shoot over your Golden or trial? Every sport can promote extremes.

the answer to both is yes!

[The Spotted Devil]

the answer to both is yes!

Great!

I don't know much about Golden lines but the ones we have in Vic that are successful in retrieving trials are quite different from the ones I've seen in the show ring. I know some folk are combining show and working lines. Same happens in GSPs. But other breeds are too far gone in opposite directions.

[LisaCC]

Sorry DC excuse my terminology. Does it make more sense if I said 'performance' I didn't mean sporting register.

Not sure, it still sounds as though you are saying the dogs are bred for performance or dog sports rather than for their ability to work. Working ethic in those dogs is still paramount, if people source them for performance rather than work it shouldn't be held against them. There are working people who will not sell their dogs to agility homes for fear of having their reputation tarnished. Even though the characteristics (structure, work ethic, flexibility/agility) of a good working dog actually lend themselves quite well to dog sports.

I agree with that, but there are still differences in dogs that are bred soley for the work originally intended and dogs bred for performance (a relatively new type of work).

I'm not saying ones better than the other, I'm just saying that there are differences.