People Training

[LuccatheLagotto]

Lucca the Lagotto is now 13 weeks and all is going well with training/socialization etc.

I’m looking for some advice around how to politely but firmly prevent friends from inadvertently teaching him bad habits! I feel like such a nark telling people to do (or not do) this or that with Lucca but at the same time I don’t want all the hard work I put into training undone!

For example, I ignore Lucca when he jumps up and only engage him when he is sitting calmly but friends will pat him when he is on hind legs.

Also, I always enforce a command so that he doesn’t learn to ignore me but friends will randomly say “come” when he is on the other side of the yard and obviously won’t come or when he jumps up on them, they’ll say “No! Down!” when that just isn’t going to work and is just adding to his excitement.

Or they’ll feed him food from the table and talk to him in high pitched whiny voices that just gets him worked up.

I know it’s all done out of affection for Lucca but it’s making me not enjoy social situations.

Do other people feel the same when other people try to “train” their dog and what do you do about it?

Thanks!

Betty

Edited December 1, 2014 by LuccatheLagotto

[Stressmagnet]

I get really really narky.

They get to go home. I get to be left with 28kgs of dog who has to go back to square one.

I've actually said 'if you can't treat him properly, I'll crate him and its your fault'.

Yeah, I'm the crazy dog lady.

[SchnauzerMax]

Make sure you bring the treats that you'd prefer he eat and ask them (your friends or random strangers) to make him do a trick for a treat.

Emphasise the working for a reward and talk about how bad yummy things like bacon are for dogs. You know, pancreatitis, diarrhea, vomiting etc etc.

My stock phrase used to be "please don't give him that, it will give him the runs!"

[suziwong66]

oh how i feel for you and identify with you...

At the front door, before guests enter, i give them the 'low-down' on how i want them to interact with the dogs and give explanations regarding rewarding unwanted behaviours. The first thing i ask for is 'no bums on floor = no patting or attention' and move away if you have to disengage. Most people are really good BUT last night we had two doggie loving friends over for dinner. I briefed them at the door...to no avail. I asked them to ignore the puppy in the ex-pen in the kit/dining room where we were going to spend the evening; everything i had asked them to do was ignored.

Again, when they wanted to go outside to meet Wilbur i briefed them that they should not give him any attention until bum was on the ground and as soon as bum came up; no attention. I think their ears were painted on They're lovely people but when it comes to dogs the brain switches off. For a short time while outside, i crated Wilbur...one of the guests went over to the crate and started talking to him

I told them NOT to approach the ex-pen as we were trying to extinguish jumping...so what did they each do individually??? you guessed it. One even was gaining Laiken's attention from over the top of the pen Since they wouldn't do what i asked, i put my attention toward trying to teach them how to approach without sending her over threshold etc Next time this couple come over, i'm crating both dogs and making it very clear they are NOT to approach the crates.

Out in public, i don't like people approaching with their dogs and if they don't comply i am no longer polite; i've had too many experiences where my dogs end up picking up unwanted behaviours. The last bloke who came too close with his dog when we were dining outdoors at a cafe with our two (stopped right in front of our table), was politely asked to move - twice. Of course, the pup went over threshold barking like a nutter because this asshat wouldn't move away. So i moved away and lost my temper and swore at him; the fool followed me so he got a mouthful.

if there's a solution to these types of problems, i've yet to find it. Wearing a high viz training vest with 'please ignore' has helped with the puppy but you can guarantee there's always one asshat who will ignore the vest.

[Dogsfevr]

Nope doesn't worry me at all at that age i want my dogs to enjoy people in all scenario's in all occasions & to experience many kinds of approaches that life will through them.

People aren't perfect so i prefer to expose my pups to that ,training them to behave around people is still just as easy & my dogs weigh in around 38 kg .

My dogs are showdogs so public manners is important but no i am not crazy about what they do as pups

Feeding is a whole different kettle of fish & one im anal on & will enforce & explain why in a non lecturing manner .

[Justrace]

I get told I have WAY too many rules and they just can't remember them all. I really only have one rule & that is four on the floor before any patting/talking etc. Most people don't bother listening to me and despite that she is slowly getting the hang of what is expected of her.

[LuccatheLagotto]

Thank you for all your responses and suggestions.

It’s good to know that I am not the only one.

I think I will have to pick one rule to enforce (that is, no engaging Lucca unless seated and calm) and the rest I’ll just have to learn to let go…

[raineth]

I never really tell guests rules about how to interact with the dog, precisely for the above reasons! Most guests are there to see me, or someone else in my family and at the end of the day couldn't really care less about my dog rules, so they are not going to bothered following them.

If the dog is excitable I put them in the crate. When they have calmed down they can come out and say hello.

I do have one guest that would consistently go up to the dog in the crate and moan about how terrible it was for the dog to be in gaol; so I just put a blanket over the crate.

[Stressmagnet]

I never really tell guests rules about how to interact with the dog, precisely for the above reasons! Most guests are there to see me, or someone else in my family and at the end of the day couldn't really care less about my dog rules, so they are not going to bothered following them.

If the dog is excitable I put them in the crate. When they have calmed down they can come out and say hello.

I do have one guest that would consistently go up to the dog in the crate and moan about how terrible it was for the dog to be in gaol; so I just put a blanket over the crate.

The problem is:

I own a labrador who loves loves people and who assumes the entire world will love him back and oh my gosh there might be treats or an ear rub etc etc.

I have friends who (gasp) don't like dogs. Who don't want to be pestered. So I need to train Ernie not to bother people; not to be boisterous and not to try and kiss every inch of everybody.

He's a puppy - he hasn't developed the facility to tell who likes him and who doesn't. So I need to put rules in place for EVERYONE who comes over - that way, the ones who DO like dogs can fuss over him and the ones that don't can ignore him. The only way I can think of doing that is to ask my visitors to do as I ask - ignore him when he behaves like a pork chop and reward him when he's calm. Hopefully, as he ages, he'll learn to leave the ones who can't be bothered with him alone - because he'll be in a calm state already.

When a visitor encourages the jumping up or the slobbery kisses -- it sets his training back. Yes, I could crate him each and every time we have someone over, but that, to me, defeats the purpose of having a dog as s family member.

If he was a child; and I asked folks not to touch his face or to kiss him - they'd more than likely listen. Why am I ignored because he's s dog?

(Edited typos)

Edited December 2, 2014 by Stressmagnet

[raineth]

I never really tell guests rules about how to interact with the dog, precisely for the above reasons! Most guests are there to see me, or someone else in my family and at the end of the day couldn't really care less about my dog rules, so they are not going to bothered following them.

If the dog is excitable I put them in the crate. When they have calmed down they can come out and say hello.

I do have one guest that would consistently go up to the dog in the crate and moan about how terrible it was for the dog to be in gaol; so I just put a blanket over the crate.

The problem is:

I own a labrador who loves loves people and who assumes the entire world will love him back and oh my gosh there might be treats or an ear rub etc etc.

I have friends who (gasp) don't like dogs. Who don't want to be pestered. So I need to train Ernie not to bother people; not to be boisterous and not to try and kiss every inch of everybody.

He's a puppy - he hasn't developed the facility to tell who likes him and who doesn't. So I need to put rules in place for EVERYONE who comes over - that way, the ones who DO like dogs can fuss over him and the ones that don't can ignore him. The only way I can think of doing that is to ask my visitors to do as I ask - ignore him when he behaves like a pork chop and reward him when he's calm. Hopefully, as he ages, he'll learn to leave the ones who can't be bothered with him alone - because he'll be in a calm state already.

When a visitor encourages the jumping up or the slobbery kisses -- it sets his training back. Yes, I could crate him each and every time we have someone over, but that, to me, defeats the purpose of having a dog as s family member.

If he was a child; and I asked folks not to touch his face or to kiss him - they'd more than likely listen. Why am I ignored because he's s dog?

(Edited typos)

You don't have to justify your training methods to me, if you like them and they work for you, go for it :)

I am simply stating what I do and I have raised and socialised dogs successfully with this method. My Dane also loves everyone, and because of her size it is important she is not boisterous with guests too.

I do think it's a little OTT to say that putting your dog in the crate for five or ten minutes defeats the purpose of having them as a family member. What it simply does is set the dog up for success. I can't expect my young dog to behave when he or she is dizzy with excitement, which usually occurs in the initial arrival. They can be in the crate and come out when they are calm and have a better chance of succeeding.

[dididog]

I do think it's a little OTT to say that putting your dog in the crate for five or ten minutes defeats the purpose of having them as a family member. What it simply does is set the dog up for success. I can't expect my young dog to behave when he or she is dizzy with excitement, which usually occurs in the initial arrival. They can be in the crate and come out when they are calm and have a better chance of succeeding.

I don't crate (because I don't have one) but I confine my dog to a room when guests arrive because I know she will be too aroused to make appropriate decisions (altho instead of jumping up for kisses she is more likely to bark and get narky). By confining her and only letting her out when she is calm I know that she's in a clear headspace and not being impulsive and that I get time to properly explain to guests how to interact with her. The long term goal is that she won't have to be confined as she won't see visitors arriving as a particularly intense encounter and will know she gets to say hi a lot quicker if she's calm. When she comes out she still gets to say hello and practice greeting politely, only she is in a much better position to do so successfully than if she was still really excited, like raineth has said. Didi is not a full Dane but still 44kg and very much a puppy and there is no reasoning with a dog that big when they are too excited/agitated so I save myself the trouble and don't let it get to the point as otherwise I have to juggle greeting the guest and holding back my dog going off her nut in my tiny hallway!

Just saying this as raineth suggested I do the confining thing when Didi started getting very touchy about strangers coming in the house and while I was going to try a different method, this one has worked really well and really quickly so I wouldn't discount it, Didi still gets to hang out with my guests and they all get to pat her and give her cuddles but the whole thing goes a lot smoother. :)

However even if we totally iron out this behaviour I will still always separate her when a guest who has never met her before/I am not familiar with them comes over (ie a tradie) as I don't know if I can trust them to do the right thing and with a big and sometimes defensive dog it's not worth the worry!

Edited December 2, 2014 by Terri S.

[Stressmagnet]

I never really tell guests rules about how to interact with the dog, precisely for the above reasons! Most guests are there to see me, or someone else in my family and at the end of the day couldn't really care less about my dog rules, so they are not going to bothered following them.

If the dog is excitable I put them in the crate. When they have calmed down they can come out and say hello.

I do have one guest that would consistently go up to the dog in the crate and moan about how terrible it was for the dog to be in gaol; so I just put a blanket over the crate.

The problem is:

I own a labrador who loves loves people and who assumes the entire world will love him back and oh my gosh there might be treats or an ear rub etc etc.

I have friends who (gasp) don't like dogs. Who don't want to be pestered. So I need to train Ernie not to bother people; not to be boisterous and not to try and kiss every inch of everybody.

He's a puppy - he hasn't developed the facility to tell who likes him and who doesn't. So I need to put rules in place for EVERYONE who comes over - that way, the ones who DO like dogs can fuss over him and the ones that don't can ignore him. The only way I can think of doing that is to ask my visitors to do as I ask - ignore him when he behaves like a pork chop and reward him when he's calm. Hopefully, as he ages, he'll learn to leave the ones who can't be bothered with him alone - because he'll be in a calm state already.

When a visitor encourages the jumping up or the slobbery kisses -- it sets his training back. Yes, I could crate him each and every time we have someone over, but that, to me, defeats the purpose of having a dog as s family member.

If he was a child; and I asked folks not to touch his face or to kiss him - they'd more than likely listen. Why am I ignored because he's s dog?

(Edited typos)

You don't have to justify your training methods to me, if you like them and they work for you, go for it :)

I am simply stating what I do and I have raised and socialised dogs successfully with this method. My Dane also loves everyone, and because of her size it is important she is not boisterous with guests too.

I do think it's a little OTT to say that putting your dog in the crate for five or ten minutes defeats the purpose of having them as a family member. What it simply does is set the dog up for success. I can't expect my young dog to behave when he or she is dizzy with excitement, which usually occurs in the initial arrival. They can be in the crate and come out when they are calm and have a better chance of succeeding.

If Ernie calmed down, I'd let him out. Then he gets worked up again by people who won't listen, so I have to crate him again.

So he ends up a lot in the crate if people just won't listen.

I'm glad your dog doesn't behave like this. Maybe mine just needs to grow up a little

[Simply Grand]

Quinn looooooves people and would love to jump all over everyone and stick her tongue in their mouths. I've done a lot of training with her out and about re. not doing it and we have consistent expectations and cues at home because I'm the only human but when people come over she goes outside and/or on lead until she has calmed down so I can physically prevent her from jumping on them. There are only a couple of people who don't mind her boisterousness AND can keep calm and cue her when she is jumping that she gets free access to.

There's just no way my slightly scared of dogs mum could deal with her no matter what I asked her to do so it comes down to management rather than training.

Having said that, I don't have a whole lot of visitors at my house so it's not that big an issue for me :laugh:

ETA - if she doesn't calm down she stays outside or at least on lead with me holding onto her.

Oh, and not to alarm you, but she's 3 Don't worry though, she's a particularly full on with people dog, and because not that many people come over she doesn't get to practice calm behaviour with visitors very often, I'm sure Ernie can learn.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Simply Grand

[Dogsfevr]

If Ernie calmed down, I'd let him out. Then he gets worked up again by people who won't listen, so I have to crate him again.

So he ends up a lot in the crate if people just won't listen.

I'm glad your dog doesn't behave like this. Maybe mine just needs to grow up a little

Actually dogs that self regulate learn quicker than a whole performance that if doesn't go right sets up the owners feeling frustrated .

The way i see it the whole train whilst there becomes all about the dog instead of ignore the dog & being Lab doesn't mean its worse or bad .

I see it here with clients dogs ,owners that are trying to control them with instructions & getting no where generally we will take the dog ignore the behavior in a calm manner & the dog switches off very quickly realizing no one cares they soon learn that being calm does result in more attention .

Obviously training is very important but i think people do go OTT top & it becomes a chore instead of a pleasure & that it must always end with success.

My very large gundog pups are shown from 3 months they need to stand & be examined & work in public but there not trained to be so regimented they now appropriate behaviour but still have there puppy character & zest for life ,they learn the rules for jumping up or not allowed too .

[Stressmagnet]

Ok.

So what am I supposed to do?

My point is - visitors DON'T 'ignore the behaviour'.

So what do you suggest?

Happy to take your lead on this, I just don't see that what I'm doing is different from the suggestions.

To recap:

No pats until 4 on the floor and calm behaviour. If he persists, he gets removed.

Problem:

Visitors ignore my request so he gets rewarded for acting like a pork chop.

Solution:

I remove him until he calms, then we let him try again. Visitor continues to rev him up - he ends up removed again.

Where do you see I am going wrong?

I'm not trying to 'regiment' him - I just want a polite dog.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Stressmagnet

[VizslaMomma]

With the Horrible Herbert, I crate him for 2/3 of the visit.

I explain to the guests, they are in my home. The dog is more of a part of the home than they are.

I want him to follow my rules. They know they need to follow mine. LOL.

He stays in the crate. Then when they are due to go, he is put on lead.

He is given his instructions and we see the visitors to the door.

At 12 months, this is enough ( imo) for him.

With certain visitors we all go to the back yard and have free play. Because that tires him, he is happy to go to his crate.

It's not doing anything wrong, it's allowing the correct ways for you to have Ernie in your control.

:)

ETA: I have also had FOUR adult Vizslas going wild with the delight of Vizslas. I found out that was too OTT for me.

[Stressmagnet]

^this sounds like a plan. So eventually he will learn that behaving like a nutcase around visitors means he's back in the crate.

[Cosmolo]

There is an easier way IMO.. Problem with the crating is that unless you can get him in the crate extremely quickly, the association can become unclear (so therefore it takes many more repetitions) AND it doesn't address the core issue of the dog valuing visitors more than you.

Lead on or take hold of the dogs collar when he greets people so that you can prevent him from being reinforced for the wrong thing in the first place. Then, as they are patting him, i'd mark with a verbal cue that's been pre-conditioned, and food reward. This becomes an excellent way to interrupt the dog and in addition they start to build more value for you than the visitor. The concept is that they learn- the closer they are to the visitor, the more they get from you. None of this requires compliance from visitors. :)

[Simply Grand]

There is an easier way IMO.. Problem with the crating is that unless you can get him in the crate extremely quickly, the association can become unclear (so therefore it takes many more repetitions) AND it doesn't address the core issue of the dog valuing visitors more than you.

Lead on or take hold of the dogs collar when he greets people so that you can prevent him from being reinforced for the wrong thing in the first place. Then, as they are patting him, i'd mark with a verbal cue that's been pre-conditioned, and food reward. This becomes an excellent way to interrupt the dog and in addition they start to build more value for you than the visitor. The concept is that they learn- the closer they are to the visitor, the more they get from you. None of this requires compliance from visitors. :)

Yep, that's exactly how I've done it with Quinn out in public. On the lead, 'stay down' cue and high reward rate at first for staying sitting or 4 on the floor while being patted. Then 'good girl' and move away before she gets too excited and loses it.

With time and practice I gradually reduced the reward rate, started working without the lead, increased the duration (of interaction with the person), distraction (looking at the person instead of me, person bent over her instead of standing up, more exciting pats and cuddles) and distance (from me when I give the cue) and she is now getting close to being reliable at not jumping even when I'm at a distance when I tell her 'stay down', and even without the cue unless she's got lots of energy to get out.

As I said, I don't have that many people over so I haven't bothered with it too much at home although it would be very do-able using the same method. With the couple of people I mentioned that she does get free access to we have been practicing on them giving her the cue themselves.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Simply Grand

[VizslaMomma]

There is an easier way IMO.. Problem with the crating is that unless you can get him in the crate extremely quickly, the association can become unclear (so therefore it takes many more repetitions) AND it doesn't address the core issue of the dog valuing visitors more than you.

Just so you know, Cosmolo, I crate the dog before the guests arrive. He becomes part of the scene when I attach the lead and direct him to do what I want.

But with one group of visitors, they come to the back yard and mingle with him. After playing happily, he is tuckered out so crates himself.

Edited December 3, 2014 by VizslaMomma