Colitis - Ibd?

[LisaCC]

If it really is IBD then food intolerances is not a cause. Food can make it worse as the stomach etc are so inflamed that digesting food is a problem. I would be looking at feeding small, easy to digest meals. Meaty Bites are so processed that they would be easy to digest. Roughage would be bad. Think processed but not greasy/fatty.

You need steroids for IBD as the stomach etc is inflamed.

Genuine query :

I get that IBD means the stomach is very inflamed. But isn't it still relevant and valid to work out WHY it became inflamed in the first place? And couldn't that be because of proteins that irritated the stomach in the first place and which over-time developed/progressed to IBD?

Also, I agree about needing to address inflammation as if this is not done, the stomach is not going to be able to tolerate or digest food, and that would (in my logic) lead to malfunction of so many other organs in the body which in turn completes the cycle to an on-going and spiralling down-hill issue. There are numerous natural based supplements that act to reduce inflammation, not only by acting as a barrier/protectant but also as an aid to getting the organs in the body to calm down and support it to an improved functional level.

My thoughts meander along the lines that for Yonjuro's friend, steroids haven't worked, that there remains the background source of irritation to the stomach.

???

Yes, the inflammation can be caused by protein allergies. We spoke to many specialist vets about his case and were told that many times. A normal allergy doesn't cause IBD but having it in conjunction sure can make it a shit load worse.

If it was the simple fact that meatybites were processed then one of the other dozens of dry foods, including prescription ones would of worked too.

Edited November 21, 2014 by LisaCC

[JulesP]

If it really is IBD then food intolerances is not a cause. Food can make it worse as the stomach etc are so inflamed that digesting food is a problem. I would be looking at feeding small, easy to digest meals. Meaty Bites are so processed that they would be easy to digest. Roughage would be bad. Think processed but not greasy/fatty.

You need steroids for IBD as the stomach etc is inflamed.

Genuine query :

I get that IBD means the stomach is very inflamed. But isn't it still relevant and valid to work out WHY it became inflamed in the first place? And couldn't that be because of proteins that irritated the stomach in the first place and which over-time developed/progressed to IBD?

???

They don't really know what causes IBD but think it is a hereditary or immune problem. It isn't like a allergy. It is a congenital condition too, you don't develop it. I am talking about real IBD here.

Say you have a dog with IBD that is currently in remission and it eats a steak, it should be ok. If it ate the steak during a flair up then it might get sick.

[Erny]

They don't really know what causes IBD but think it is a hereditary or immune problem. It isn't like a allergy. It is a congenital condition too, you don't develop it. I am talking about real IBD here.

Say you have a dog with IBD that is currently in remission and it eats a steak, it should be ok. If it ate the steak during a flair up then it might get sick.

This I 'get' and believe me, I have experience with what I have good reason to believe are hereditary immune problems. In my boy's case (for one small example), I have not overcome his problem and chances are it will be on-going for the rest of his life. However, what I have accomplished is finding a diet base and supplementary support that helps his system be the best it can be, so that ensuing symptoms are (a) not as frequent, (b) not as persistently unbearable/uncomfortable, (c ) in most instances, not as severe and (d) provides him with a diet where he is at least able to maintain (with ups and downs, although these too are less frequent) a reasonable weight - albeit a lean weight .... all of this making his situation manageable without the use of steroids which would undoubtedly send his system in a downward spiral.

So, whilst I acknowledge that IBS and IBD are different and that I do agree it is not an *allergy* per se, I think that the investigative process for IBD (in terms of sourcing a diet to best compliment and support the system and help it function at its best possible optimum) has to be pretty much the same as one would conduct for IBS or allergy.

Roo has proved to be the best staple meat component of my boy's diet (that I've found so far .... horse went pretty good for him too, although that was only a short term thing and I can't source it particularly easily - and admit the thought kind of churns me a bit). I can at times re-introduce (e.g.) chicken for short periods without overt negative side effects, but roo is what I have always had to return to and use for the majority of feeds.

ETA: Not arguing .... just bouncing back with my train of thought. Open to education :)

Edited November 21, 2014 by Erny

[aussielover]

Has this dog been seen by a specialist?

That would be the obvious next step...

Gut samples are needed to reach a conclusive diagnosis of IBD. There are other diseases that can cause similar problems (lymphangiectasia, Addison's, cancer, other autoimmune conditions).

Personally if it were my dog if be getting it seen by a registered medicine specialist to discuss diagnostics and treatment options.

Only after this, when the dog is stabilized and there is a diagnosis, would I consider alternative natural therapies and nutrition.

Steroids are not necessarily evil. They are integral to treatment for some diseases. The treatment for Addison's disease is steroids, no alternatives.

Used judiciously, they improve the quality of life for many pets.

I am not against natural therapies or nutrition either and believe they have their place. My dog sees a chiro and is on a raw diet. I would just not rely solely on them for life threatening illnesses.

Eta- there is a simple 2 stage blood test (ACTH stimulation test) diagnose Addison's. I would find a vet who is willing to run it to put your friends mind at rest about Addison's.

There is an atypical form of Addison's that doesn't show the typical electrolyte changes seen on normal blood tests (which I assume this dog has had done before?)

Also some dogs with Addison's can have a deficiency in production of corticosteroids only, rather than the more common deficiency in both mineralocorticoids and corticocosteroids.

So would be worthwhile ruling out Addison's disease.

Edited November 22, 2014 by aussielover

[LisaCC]

Maybe I've missed something, I was under the impression that the dog has been properly diagnosed, in other words has had biopsies taken from the stomach and intestines?

If that hasn't happened it definitely needs to to confirm IBD, there is more than one type too. And yes agreed about the steroids, they are necessary for issues like this.

[Yonjuro]

thanks to every one for contributing, this posted from my friend

Thanks Jase, that makes for some interesting reading and really don't worry about upsetting me, I'm tougher than I look, lol. I will admit though that when she first got sick I was beside myself most of the time and my coping strategy was simply to not talk about it here. Which is why it's only been the last few months that I've opened up more about it on the forum, because i'm in a place where I know that I can handle it. So no need to worry.

I have spoken to the vet about noveaux protein sources (sorry I can't spell it!) but only in it's commercial form thus far...they do actually use roo as one of the protein sources but becuase it's isn't real roo only the processed dog kibble version that's why i said you can't get it here. We don't get horse here although they do in most european countries such as France (there was a massive scandal a year or so ago where some well known food chains had been found to be using horse in their lasagne! Made headline news and sparked a few jokes, lol). There will of course be other protein sources that are not normally used, pheasant and venison spring to mind but as you can probably guess they are incredibly expensive and the amount you will get is very small. I did try one of these hypollergenic brands and then gradually weaning off of the steroids but the problem is that once the levels dropped too much she got sick again. In the back of my mind i was tempted to persevere anyway but the reality is that once she gets sick she gets worse until her body gives up the fight and starts shutting down. That's the big problem with all the things i've tried thus far: we don't have the luxury of time to wait it out and see if she improves without the steroids. We wait it out and she dies. We're caught up in a vicious cycle.

I had been hoping that over the months if we could maintain a permanent remission that we could start decreasing the dosage of steroids until they cease to be a part of her routine but so far the lowest doseage we can achieve is one 25mg tablet every other day....she was on half a tablet daily but her fur was thinning and dropping out. The every other day thing seems to be helping with this. She is particularly sensitive to steroids and reacts stonger than anticipated so a lower than normal dose seems to work well for her 42kg frame where as it wouldn't work for most other dogs of her size. It's not an ideal situation, it will certainly decrease her life in the end but in the meantime it's keeping her alive too so a double edged sword methinks. That's why i started this thread as the bones seem to have tipped her over the balance.......the day she has had her steroid within an hour she feels completely fine and starts pooping healthily but the night before she's due her next one and they're worn off she's getting runny and feeling sick again. I just can't work out why it's tipping her over the edge? But reading one of your replies it seems that bones are to be avoided in the raw diet so I'm presuming this is most likely because of her condition and will therefore rule them out entirely. It's not a great hardship, they're more of a luxury item than a necessity.

[LisaCC]

Can she try goat as a novel protein? Or even lamb or fish if the dog hasn't had those before?

I hope she isn't changing the steroid dose without vets advise. If the dog is better on the steroids keep it on the steroids.

[JulesP]

I wouldn't be giving the dog bones. Heaps too hard for it to digest.

[Yonjuro]

Can she try goat as a novel protein? Or even lamb or fish if the dog hasn't had those before?I hope she isn't changing the steroid dose without vets advise. If the dog is better on the steroids keep it on the steroids.

Regarding the steroids I don't think she has done anything without her vet being consulted :) Good idea with the other proteins.

I wouldn't be giving the dog bones. Heaps too hard for it to digest.

I agree and so does she now that this last episode occurred :)

[persephone]

..why doesn't she join D O L - then she could discuss things directly ? :)

[Yonjuro]

..why doesn't she join D O L - then she could discuss things directly ? :)

To be honest I started the thread to offer some advice when I thought the condition was IBS and or colitis and looking for an alternative to Slippery Elm. I didn't know the extent of the battle and her involvement with vets previously and sought to give her a way off the steroids.

I think she is quite shy about this and I don't want to pressure her, I might suggest DOL but just want to play it by ear for a bit :)

[persephone]

:) fair enough ...

[Erny]

Yonjuro - tell your friend to take on board what she feels could be 'right' for her dog, and discard the rest. She's the only one who really knows her dog and has the first-hand grasp of what her dog's health condition is like. I agree with her that if steroids are what is keeping her dog alive, then that's what she needs to keep with at the moment, but working to find a good diet that her dog's stomach can not only tolerate but which will add to calming, supporting and strengthening her dog's system so she can try to wean off the steroids would be good. And in this respect, perhaps a consult with a Western medicine Vet (did I already mention that in a previous post? can't remember) as there may be natural supplements that can at least in part take over from some of the inflammatory assistance and they alone may open the doorway to weaning away from steroids. Maybe.

One other thing to mention to your friend, should she be interested .... and that's the additional assistance (on top of the dietary recipe via AA that I already had my boy on) of hair-DNA testing and supplementing in accordance with the results of that test. There would be many who don't believe in it and I admit I was one of those. In fact, I was resistant when it was first suggested to me. But the test wasn't expensive itself so, when I'd gone as far as I could but knew my boy needed just a bit more, I took the plunge. The results themselves astounded me and so I took the extra (albeit expensive) plunge and added the recommended supplements to his diet. These have assisted my boy's system in conjunction to the AA diet and supplement.

Good luck to your friend. I hope she finds some things from this thread that are helpful or perhaps even spark some ideas. I know that with what I've done, which is a lot of reading, reading, reading, there is much I didn't actually or specifically do, but research on those ideas led me to other thoughts and ideas, which led me to different people who again led me to other people and so that's how I got to where I've got to. It's not an easy path (I find) but a long meandering one, one which, at the VERY least, provides a lot of learning :D

Edited November 22, 2014 by Erny

[Yonjuro]

Thanks very much for your help Erny :)

[Lemonlime]

I haven't read the other posts but wanted to share my experience. I have a dog to suffers from colitis flare ups. He can't have raw chicken, fish, roo or bones of any type. If he eats any of these things he becomes a very sick little dog with explosive bloody stools, vomiting and you can see he is in pain with very bad belly aches. He was on a prescription diet and probiotics for 6 months before I slowly introduced normal food to him.

He hasn't had any problems for the last 12 months and now eats a diet of Fetch It Fresh Beef BARF and Canidae Pure Sea.

It is a matter of finding out what triggers the colitis and steering clear of all foods that upset the dog. None of my dogs get bones because I can't risk him digging up a buried bone.

I can't recommend probiotics highly enough!!!

[CHRISTIEJAYDE]

Yonjuro - let your friend know that I tried IBS/IBD diets as well, right down to the homogenised canned and dry dog food manufactured for the purpose. This last was my "pre-Augustine Approved" desperate attempt, as I'd run out of ideas and all meat protein sources I could lay my hands on. This carried him for a short while, but his gut ended up doing a revolt on that as well and then I, along with the numerous Vets I'd gone to, felt we'd struck a brick wall (save for steroids, which were for many of the Vets I'd seen, the ever-present *treatment* and constantly at easy reach, just waiting for me to give the nod). That's when I switched the roo from pet-grade to human-grade, added the said select veggies and also added the AA SuperBoost. Good results were immediate.

I don't know what the common meats (i.e. chicken, lamb, beef ) are like in the UK, but the problem I see with sticking with those protein sources is that they are going to have been a component of all and any of the commercial based foods your friend has been feeding, so they would not be 'novel' meat protein sources. There must be something other than the example of rabbit available to her? Eg. Goat, or even horse?

I know that here, even when I've re-introduced common meat proteins as a way of trialling my boy's improved system, I've avoided beef as it doesn't bear well (generally speaking) with many gut sensitive dogs. But I do think the reactions we see in our dogs to these foods relates somehow to what those common stock meat animals have been reared and fed on themselves, so maybe things are different in the UK?

In any case, this information and thoughts is for your friend to consider. It can be a scary route to try to work things through on your own when you're not sure when you'll see the light at the end of the tunnel, or if there'll be one. I wonder if your friend could source a Western Medicine Vet instead of the traditional, as that will open up the doors to the possibility of natural feeding and supplements, but with some professional guidance. It might mean your friend will need to drive some to get there, but I can tell you myself that I do not regret for one second the numerous 3-hour-each-way trips I made to see Dr Bruce Syme when there were no other Vets in the area that would do anything other than hold up the steroid syringe and a bag of antibiotics.

Hi - I am new to DOL but a very active member of the doggy family community. My 4 year old Rottweiler x is about to have an ultrasound to see what the cause of her diarrhea is, we have tried numerous foods and the next diet is i guess raw food.... i have found its a case of ruling out allergies or intolerances and am wondering if the roo which is also high in protein and low in fat would be beneficial if perhaps her results say she has IBD or collitis or something of the likes. and what vegies do you use?? and any grains or wheat?

any advice would be great, ive tried Nutro, Wellness, Optimum, Eukanuba Vet Prescription intestinal, cooked chicken, pro-plan sensitive stomach and skin - THE LIST IS ENDLESS

thanks

[Skye2]

My dog has IBD. Currently I manage him on Omeprazole (for reflux oesophagitis, duedeunitis) and slippery elm tablets 800mg tablets. I find the slippery elm to be a god send. He is not too keen on them if he finds them in his food but mostly we manage to get it in without too much fuss. I also give him probiotics. He also suffers from pancreatitis. I have struggled a lot with keeping weight on him and finding food that suits him but at present he has Earthborn Holistic grain free primitive with additional lean beef. He is incredibly fussy with food. He cannot have bones in anyway as this exacerbates the problem no end. He can't tolerate any additional fats or oils i.e coconut etc. Originally Metrogel helped him greatly along with the omeprazole. I do have Budesonide for him if he gets an extreme flare up but as yet I have not had to give it to him.

[LisaCC]

1419934957[/url]' post='6619964']

Hi - I am new to DOL but a very active member of the doggy family community. My 4 year old Rottweiler x is about to have an ultrasound to see what the cause of her diarrhea is, we have tried numerous foods and the next diet is i guess raw food.... i have found its a case of ruling out allergies or intolerances and am wondering if the roo which is also high in protein and low in fat would be beneficial if perhaps her results say she has IBD or collitis or something of the likes. and what vegies do you use?? and any grains or wheat?

any advice would be great, ive tried Nutro, Wellness, Optimum, Eukanuba Vet Prescription intestinal, cooked chicken, pro-plan sensitive stomach and skin - THE LIST IS ENDLESS

thanks

Hi, your vet should give you a diet if IBD is found, which will need an internal biopsy to be sure. Kangaroo can work but only if your dog has never had it before. She needs a 'novel protein' meaning something she has never eaten. Talk to your vet about an exclusion diet and follow it to the exact. It normally starts with just a novel protein and either rice or potato, and you keep just that for weeks.