Colitis - Ibd?

[Yonjuro]

Hi all,

A friend in the UK has a husky that suffers from flair ups of colitis and IBS. The last explosive diarrhoea was brought on after eating a bone.

She has not been able to try slippery elm as she can't get her dog to eat it even when sweetened by honey

The dog regularly has to go on steroids apparently and this clears it up for a while.

Are there are other remedies that you can suggest based on my scant information ??

EDIT - Originally posted as IBS but found out it was a more serious version of IBD

Edited November 21, 2014 by Yonjuro

[persephone]

if she syringes the slippery elm in(between teeth & cheek - dog has no choice .

depending on the bone - dog might need to avoid fat ? or it may be that dog is intolerant to beef , or whatever the bone was ? has dog had all relevant tests for pancreas, etc ?

[Yonjuro]

if she syringes the slippery elm in(between teeth & cheek - dog has no choice .

depending on the bone - dog might need to avoid fat ? or it may be that dog is intolerant to beef , or whatever the bone was ? has dog had all relevant tests for pancreas, etc ?

Thanks Perse, unfortunately I don't know all of the background, but I will try and find out more. The lady with the dog is pretty vigilant with vet visits so I would guess that the relevant tests have been done, which is why I though slippery elm might be worth trying as few vets will have tried it.

I have recommended a course of probiotics but the extent of my knowledge with natural remedies that might help tummy problem runs out after, slippery elm and probiotics.

She is prepared for life on steroids but mentioned her fear is that long term these drugs may lead to an earlier passing than normal??

[Erny]

Colitis (to me) is merely a symptom of gut irritation. In my (limited to my dog) experience (which is a BIG experience, as most of you know), I think your friend needs to focus on working out what is causing the irritation and one of the first places to start is to isolate and trial each meat protein, one by one. It's often best to begin with a novel meat protein source and one which is lean of fat.

I know you're already familiar with the diet I have my own dog on (which is Roo plus the recommended selection of pureed vegetables as per Augustine Approved, along with the AA Superboost). Being in the UK, sourcing roo meat could be a bit difficult. Maybe pure rabbit is a possibility? The veggie component wouldn't be difficult, but getting the SuperBoost might be, but that's something your friend could perhaps talk with AA about? I do tend to find that my own boy's digestive system regresses a bit over time if he doesn't get the SuperBoost as well, so the natural supplements it provides obviously plays a good part in supporting his digestive system.

Prior to the diet he is on, and when he was having quite dramatic digestive issues, "steroids, steroids" was pretty much all I was recommended and offered for Mandela by the Vets I saw at the time (save for Dr Bruce Syme, who helped to steer me along the more natural path to digestive health) but to this date (and Mandela is now almost 6.5 years old) we have, because of perseverance in finding the solution that we have for him, avoided all and any steroid or other chemical based option.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Erny

[Yonjuro]

Thanks Erny - I was hoping that you would see this thread. I have passed on the info you have given.

[OSoSwift]

Agree with Ernie, figure what is causing the gut to chuck a wobbly then you can control it.

I have a cat who when we got him - he was on crap supermarket food - had shocking bowel movements and IBS. He is a sensitive soul and we got them at the age of two. The extra stress resulted in foul watery bowl movements with lots of bright red blood and OMG the stench!!!!!! He was very unwell. I went through the process of trying different food and when I suddenly found one he did well on the change was unmistakeable! His little rounded tummy disappeared over night, the flatulence stopped and the bowel movements become firm, far less smelly and a max of twice a day. Since then we have had no blood in poop and rarely even have runny tummies or stinky gas - its usually only if they thieve something the shouldn't have!

[Yonjuro]

Thanks Oso :) Glad to hear you solved your cat's problem.

This is what I heard from my friend, I don't think she will have read Erny's info yet?

"Thanks . She has a severe case of inflammatory bowel disease/colitis. It can only be properly controlled by a regular low level dosage of steroids. Other meds have all been unsuccessful. She's had this for over a year now and as soon as the steroid wears off she starts vomitting and pooping mucous. If meds are not given quickly enough then she ends up popping rivers of just pure Crimson blood.

To give you an idea of how bad it is....her symptoms are more like addisons disease that IBD. The vet however said its not addisons as different types of steroids are used to treat it and if Bear had it she wouldn't respond so well to the ones she's currently taking.....but the level of severity and threat to life is still the same regardless of what she has".

[VizslaMomma]

Thanks Oso :) Glad to hear you solved your cat's problem.

This is what I heard from my friend, I don't think she will have read Erny's info yet?

"Thanks . She has a severe case of inflammatory bowel disease/colitis. It can only be properly controlled by a regular low level dosage of steroids. Other meds have all been unsuccessful. She's had this for over a year now and as soon as the steroid wears off she starts vomitting and pooping mucous. If meds are not given quickly enough then she ends up popping rivers of just pure Crimson blood.

To give you an idea of how bad it is....her symptoms are more like addisons disease that IBD. The vet however said its not addisons as different types of steroids are used to treat it and if Bear had it she wouldn't respond so well to the ones she's currently taking.....but the level of severity and threat to life is still the same regardless of what she has".

Then,imo, the steroids are not healing the issue but making the dog's life bearable for the course of medication. (Soz, no pun intended.)

Good move by your friend to ask for help.

[Yonjuro]

thanks VM,

It sounds more serious than I thought. See quote below,

"Your such a legend Jase! Thank you so much for taking the time to help me. One thing I would say is that ibs and IBD are different. I'm not pointing this out to be an a**e but to explain how it started. Bear got sick, very sick and it triggered this disease that she now has....my son has the human form which is called ulcerative colitis (have you heard of Chrons disease? It's very similar). This started in the summer of 2013 and she was on deaths door at one point. We tried cutting out all grain, fats and feeding hypoallergenic ingredient based foods and trying to manage the condition through diet alone. Unfortunately she was so sensitive that as soon as the steroids wore off she was unable to retain any remission from the illness and became violently sick. We've tried weaning her into meds specifically for IBD that are not steroids but the same thing happened. Given how serious it is there is a big part of me that thinks personally it could well be addisons disease (inability to produce enough corticoids) even though the vet doesn't agree, lol. Either way, I guess it doesn't really matter as the treatment is steroids of one type or another.

I'm so glad that your forum friend has managed to find something that works so well for her and yes fresh kangaroo meat would be hard to find, tbh I haven't seen rabbit for a while either but we do get chicken, beef, lamb etc...very easily available......I haven't given up hope that one day she might be in a stable condition enough to try again at finding an alternative way to control her condition and I shall certainly bare this info in mind for when that time comes. . It gives me hope and that's worth so much.

I really can't thank you enough Jase for your help. Xxxxxxxxxxx "

[OSoSwift]

Yes IBD & IBS are different.

It took 6 months and many various things to find out what he can and cannot tolerate, many trips to the vets many times of having a very unwell cat with a VERY sore tummy, many nights of being woken up gagging as he had used the litter tray two rooms away. I gave up counting how many times I had to wash him, the floor and my bedding as he had gone to the toilet.

Ernie has a very long and very informative thread on her regarding Mandela and their journey. Maybe see if Ernie can point you in the right direction and you can send your friend the link?

Edited November 20, 2014 by OSoSwift

[Erny]

Yonjuro - let your friend know that I tried IBS/IBD diets as well, right down to the homogenised canned and dry dog food manufactured for the purpose. This last was my "pre-Augustine Approved" desperate attempt, as I'd run out of ideas and all meat protein sources I could lay my hands on. This carried him for a short while, but his gut ended up doing a revolt on that as well and then I, along with the numerous Vets I'd gone to, felt we'd struck a brick wall (save for steroids, which were for many of the Vets I'd seen, the ever-present *treatment* and constantly at easy reach, just waiting for me to give the nod). That's when I switched the roo from pet-grade to human-grade, added the said select veggies and also added the AA SuperBoost. Good results were immediate.

I don't know what the common meats (i.e. chicken, lamb, beef ) are like in the UK, but the problem I see with sticking with those protein sources is that they are going to have been a component of all and any of the commercial based foods your friend has been feeding, so they would not be 'novel' meat protein sources. There must be something other than the example of rabbit available to her? Eg. Goat, or even horse?

I know that here, even when I've re-introduced common meat proteins as a way of trialling my boy's improved system, I've avoided beef as it doesn't bear well (generally speaking) with many gut sensitive dogs. But I do think the reactions we see in our dogs to these foods relates somehow to what those common stock meat animals have been reared and fed on themselves, so maybe things are different in the UK?

In any case, this information and thoughts is for your friend to consider. It can be a scary route to try to work things through on your own when you're not sure when you'll see the light at the end of the tunnel, or if there'll be one. I wonder if your friend could source a Western Medicine Vet instead of the traditional, as that will open up the doors to the possibility of natural feeding and supplements, but with some professional guidance. It might mean your friend will need to drive some to get there, but I can tell you myself that I do not regret for one second the numerous 3-hour-each-way trips I made to see Dr Bruce Syme when there were no other Vets in the area that would do anything other than hold up the steroid syringe and a bag of antibiotics.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Erny

[Yonjuro]

Thanks so much Oso and Erny,

I will pass on your very helpful advice

[seregil]

Gosh, poor dog ! that's a really extreme case that's for sure.

I have a dog who has always had trouble with Colitis-type symptoms. Fortunately he has never passed blood but lots of sloppy mucousy poos, when very runny he would also vomit once or twice. After much trialling of foods I have isolated chicken, kangaroo and eggs as being his main trigure foods. If I stick to RC Sensitivity dry food, fresh or canned fish and fresh beef (not fatty though) he is now pretty good. No bones of ANY type, even beef

Medication-wise he responds immediately to Metrogyl tablets (Metronidazole, also sometimes called Flagyl) from the vets. I would presume this has been tried on this dog?

It is worth bearing in mind that stress can play a major factor in this condition too. It may not be a food at all, but stress as the cause. The prednisolone would still give an improvement of signs as it is reducing the inflammation in the dog's gut. Even though Metrogyl is technically an antibiotic, it also has an anti-inflammatory affect on the bowel, hence the response.

I know of a dog whose owner's partner is a FIFO - every time the partner comes home this dog gets colitis for couple of days, the dog is so happy and gets so excited. "Stress" does not have to be a negative thing, also has this dog in question got a "nervous" sort of temperament perhaps?

[Yonjuro]

Thanks for passing on your story Seregil :)

[LisaCC]

As soon as I read the OP I thought thats IBD not IBS, my last dog had it and the most important thing she can do is find something, ANYTHING the dog can eat and digest properly.

If she hasn't already start a strict vet guided exclusion diet, a referral to a veterinary nutritionist would be the best way to go. It will need to be a novel protein as Erny said, and some kind of carb (rice or potato, Sam could not even handle rice) and often some supplements (vet will advise, not dog ones as these often contain meat proteins) on top as it will often be long term.

I'm dead serious with the "Anything" part, the only thing Sam could eat and gain any weight on was Pedigree Meatybites. After months of exclusion diets and everything else, we fed him it because he liked it the week before he was going to be put down and he suddenly gained 5 kgs in one week and went into "remission" for 5 years.

I wrote up his story in the health thread after he passed, I'll try and link it to you.

[LisaCC]

Sam was a very extreme case, here is his story

Edited November 21, 2014 by LisaCC

[Yonjuro]

Thanks very much LisaCC!

[JulesP]

If it really is IBD then food intolerances is not a cause. Food can make it worse as the stomach etc are so inflamed that digesting food is a problem. I would be looking at feeding small, easy to digest meals. Meaty Bites are so processed that they would be easy to digest. Roughage would be bad. Think processed but not greasy/fatty.

You need steroids for IBD as the stomach etc is inflamed.

A friend of mine had to have a blood transfusion with Crohns so loss of blood internally is a common symptom. There are actual ulcers that are bleeding in the guts.

[Yonjuro]

Thanks for the info JulesP :)

[Erny]

If it really is IBD then food intolerances is not a cause. Food can make it worse as the stomach etc are so inflamed that digesting food is a problem. I would be looking at feeding small, easy to digest meals. Meaty Bites are so processed that they would be easy to digest. Roughage would be bad. Think processed but not greasy/fatty.

You need steroids for IBD as the stomach etc is inflamed.

Genuine query :

I get that IBD means the stomach is very inflamed. But isn't it still relevant and valid to work out WHY it became inflamed in the first place? And couldn't that be because of proteins that irritated the stomach in the first place and which over-time developed/progressed to IBD?

Also, I agree about needing to address inflammation as if this is not done, the stomach is not going to be able to tolerate or digest food, and that would (in my logic) lead to malfunction of so many other organs in the body which in turn completes the cycle to an on-going and spiralling down-hill issue. There are numerous natural based supplements that act to reduce inflammation, not only by acting as a barrier/protectant but also as an aid to getting the organs in the body to calm down and support it to an improved functional level.

My thoughts meander along the lines that for Yonjuro's friend, steroids haven't worked, that there remains the background source of irritation to the stomach.

???

Edited November 21, 2014 by Erny