Bark Bark Bark Bark Bark Bark Bark

[DeltaCharlie]

As far as agility goes, I think most people are only concerned if the barking is detrimental to the performance. Some dogs start barking on course and bark their brains right out their mouths (I heard someone recently refer to it as "leaking drive" LOL), these dogs are no longer capable of thinking and working as a team. On the flip side though, there are some dogs that bark or squeal the entire way around a course but are clearly thinking and responding appropriately and the barking is not an issue. The owner of a high drive BC girl who squeals her way around a course once said to me that she is more than happy to allow it, as it acts as a release of tension for the dog. She worries about what would happen if she stopped the barking and the dog had to keep that excitement and tension bottled up inside, she expects that to be more detrimental, which made sense to me.

I have 2 young dogs that squeal and carry on like pork chops going to the ring (but never bark on course). I discourage it with my male, Whip, as once he starts the barking and carrying on before a run I no longer have a brain to work with on course. Keeping him calm pre-run seems to give me a much more workable dog on course. Treats etc don't work with him once he is in that state of arousal, they just fall off his tongue. I need to ensure he doesn't reach that point in the first place so we now walk to the ring on a halti, do lots of obedience type work while waiting for our turn, or I insist on a liedown and he is not allowed to get up. My baby girl, Shock is incredibly vocal before a run, while I do my best to keep her quiet for the sake of the other competitors (it really is a horrible barkscream noise she makes), it seems to have no impact on her run. She can be carrying on and screaming and as soon as I put her at the start she is all business. Head is engaged, mind is thinking clearly, she is ready to work. I think it depends on the dog.

Edited November 6, 2014 by DeltaCharlie

[JRG]

Interesting conversation because voice (either barking or whining) is an elimination/major fault in spaniel field trials and no one would breed from a dog that gives tongue.

Which brings up the question - are BC's allowed to bark when they are working sheep? I would not think it desireable in real life if you want to keep the mob calm.

[DeltaCharlie]

Depends on the job the dog is performing and how stubborn or flighty the mob is (and the number too). Sometimes a voice can be useful to get a mob moving, Huntaways were bred specifically for their voice (amongst other things) and they use it to move their stock. While they don't resemble the typical image of a BC anymore, they are still used for a similar purpose so the voice cannot be that detrimental. Many other breeds use their voice too. A dog working cattle will find its voice to be an asset, maybe not on a small flock of light sheep. A good dog will know when it should and shouldn't use its voice, but then a good dog will also understand the difference between performance sports and sheepwork :) Ours may be incredibly vocal and over the top in agility and play, but they become entirely different dogs on sheep. They aren't stupid and work out quickly that doing everything at a hundred miles an hour is not going to work very well in the paddock.

Retrieving is a whole different kettle of fish though. I shared a property for 6 years with someone who had working labs. Some of hers were vocal and over the top excited, there was no real incentive while retrieving for the dog to calm down or go slower (unlike a dog working sheep) so she was often worried that they would do themselves an injury by running too fast through a ditch etc. I don't remember hers ever barking on the retrieve though, they certainly did when the agility equipment came out though and walking to the line for a retrieve :)

[Agility Dogs]

I don't know about other sports, but my girl Xena has an opinion on everything. It started out just when I was late or unclear on course, but it has escalated to pretty much every time we change directtion, move towards any obstacle that is not a jump or perhaps take a breath. LOL.

It makes no difference to her performance, she's quick, she's happy and she's accurate (Q's at between 60% and 70% and wins 85% to 90% of the classes she goes clear in.) I'm happy to wear the barking to see the fire in her eyes.

That said - time over, I won't be teaching another dog to bark on command. LOL.

[Kavik]

Kelpies do use their voice on sheep at times - they are advertised whether they have bark, backing ability and/or bite. Some people prefer dogs with bark, some without and the same for the other qualities.

It probably wouldn't bother me if he barked and still worked OK (plenty of agility dogs that do this lol), but he barks and loses his brain, which is a problem.

[Agility Dogs]

It probably wouldn't bother me if he barked and still worked OK (plenty of agility dogs that do this lol), but he barks and loses his brain, which is a problem.

COMPLETELY agreee

[JRG]

The OP was talking about a gundog - bred to hunt and retrieve game. In a normal hunting scenario, noise would not be tolerated as there would be no game left in the paddock to hunt.

Edited November 7, 2014 by JRG

[megan_]

Yes but she asked about agility

[ravenau1]

My Aussie is the same. He's not a barker in any other situation, he's fairly quiet and laid back, but at agility he just goes nuts :p for him it's excitement. We are working on it pretty much as Nekhbet says

[skip]

Megan's post is spot on.

Specially adding the third type of barking.

Least Nitro is keen :-)

Kavik you will get there I'm sure. I am assuming you tried the whole barking, game stops etc.

I can only suggest improving self control with exercises totally away from agility.

Mine loves herding the bike more than anything. Tell her to drop and ride off or around her and she is quivering dribbling mess. But she can do it.

I get her to drop in really outrageous conditions. All i can suggest.

Have fun

[Kavik]

Megan's post is spot on.

Specially adding the third type of barking.

Least Nitro is keen :-)

Kavik you will get there I'm sure. I am assuming you tried the whole barking, game stops etc.

I can only suggest improving self control with exercises totally away from agility.

Mine loves herding the bike more than anything. Tell her to drop and ride off or around her and she is quivering dribbling mess. But she can do it.

I get her to drop in really outrageous conditions. All i can suggest.

Have fun

Thanks skip :)

We are now trying the barking, game stops

And improving our self control as well. IYC and also RZ around exciting things. Kids come in handy for this as he gets excited when they run around or ride their bikes, so working on that too :laugh:

[superminty]

Been following this thread with interest.

I have a barker (go figure, a kelpie) and something that helped me was selectively rewarding "chatting" rather than barking i.e. if she was making any noise prior to an actual bark, or did a really soft bark, we would keep training - when she barked loudly (and my goodness she is loud for a little thing), we stopped. Now I am working on selecting only for pre-barking noises and not rewarding ANY barking.

Barking usually happens where there is frustration so I am making sure I am very clear on what I want - and setting up mildly frustrating situations so she can practice NOT barking to solve them.

[dasha]

Does the barking she does when actually retrieving, still occur if the retrieve is a fair distance or only close retrieves?

Or if she does a series of retrieves in succession, does she do it each time.

Or is it really just an intial excitement thing?

[FHRP]

I had a barker in agility, never at the start but around course. Difference with barking during agility and retrieving is you aren't penalised for barking in agility so there's less need to extinguish it, although it can be 'self penalising' in wasted time, which did happen with my boy. My boy was vocal with just about everything and we did lose points in obedience for barking. He was not a particularly high drive dog and I found when he was quiet he was also flat and less likely to do well so I didn't work a great deal on stopping the barking although I also never encouraged it.

I now have a high drive GSP who is vocal. He has started to yip or scream when sent for a retrieve, especially for the first bird/dummy. His steadiness at the pegs and in hides is also deteriorating, they might be linked. I have not worked much on curbing the noise as I'm not currently trialing him, but the no reward/retrieve approach has worked best with the little I've done. He might be dusted off for trials next year so we have some work to do! He also vocalised when we did agility - yipping, warbling, screaming etc. and his brains also leaked out his ears as the vocalisation increased. It was all too exciting for him.

I know drive seems to be the be all and end all in retrieving these days, but there's a lot to say for my nice quiet steady Vizsla ;) He got the birds without a peep :)

Edited November 8, 2014 by FHRP

[Aidan3]

Have you read "Control Unleashed", LabLover? Might be worth putting on your reading list.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Aidan2

[gillbear]

I might add my own thoughts to the mix.

My old border collie boy was a terrible barker during heeling. Someone suggested that I teach him bark on command and then add in a cease barking command. It worked very quickly.

good luck though, hope things settle

Edited November 8, 2014 by gillbear

[Nekhbet]

I have tried for non rewarding. I have tried for non rewarding. I have tried with non rewarding. I WILL TRY AGAIN ! HA! She is doing my head in!

It's not her drive I think it's your speed that is the problem. You have to balance the fine line between non rewarding so the dog understands barking will not get it, and witholding the reward that ends in frustration which = more barking. It's about going back to a basic, withold and as SOON as you get a quiet patch mark, reward in prey and start again. I mean a stupidly easy exercise for the beginning. If you're trying to get the barking to stop within your complex exercises it's too much for the dog to compute. Remember they're horrible multi taskers... It's why when you fix a problem you cant do 2-3 things at once when fixing it, you start fixing it in a simple manner then incorporate that new conditioning within your more complex exercise or you will just go round and round a merry go round.

If you like take a video and I can break it down for you to show you what and when you need to do things.

I see you're in VIC if you really have trouble we can have a get together

Edited November 9, 2014 by Nekhbet

[Lablover]

Interesting conversation because voice (either barking or whining) is an elimination/major fault in spaniel field trials and no one would breed from a dog that gives tongue.

Fair question, as the breeder, of my barker, I have pondered myself. So many traits I am breeding for, in my programme, drive, nerves, health.

Watched the Crufts agility finals. Thanks so much to everyone who replied, seems barking is accepted as I noted dogs in the Crufts youtubes barking and achieving remarkable focus. JRG, including a field bred a spaniel in the final.

Some working requirements require their dogs to bark, say search and rescue when locating a victim (rather than passive alert - sit to drugs etc.

All OK. I will add video, as my problem youngster is still barking!! Mainly at the start of training.

Sorry for delay in responding to this thread. I appreciate all the reponses.

[Nekhbet]

Some working requirements require their dogs to bark, say search and rescue when locating a victim (rather than passive alert - sit to drugs etc.

Don't worry I created a monster ... I taught my rescue Malinois LandSAR and if we're playing or at dog school it's WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF if she gets ignored too long or riled up. I tell her to be quiet and she shoots me the 'Well you're the one who rewarded me for this' look and sulks :p

[alpha bet]

When a dog is using his mouth the brain is turned off... (barking/mouthing/chewing/heavy panting)

Perhaps some working dogs for guard work or the like is appropriate to have the bark although personally can't see what benefit it would possibly do except that everyone wanting to break in can hear the bloody dog.... (but then a siren would have the same effect)...but the manic barking that is often heard with agility, flyball is painful....

We work dogs quiet, get them thinking and concentrating on whatever the job at hand.

Shut the dogs mouth and get his brain working....

Edited December 9, 2014 by alpha bet