Too Vocal When Out And About

[Danie11e]

Our 4 month old Belgian Shepherd gets so excited when we're out and about that at times she just can't stop barking. I think she's trying to be protective of us as she does the same thing at home when people come to the door. She'll bark until she realizes she knows them or we answer it. We don't have an issue with that, but we do want to put a stop to it while we're out and about. We can be walking down the street and if she sees another dog she'll start it then and won't stop until she's either nose-nose with the other one or it's far enough away for her liking. Once they're close she generally doesn't even care about them then. If I have the good treats (roast chicken) I can distract her, but otherwise I have to pick her up briefly to break her focus on the other dog. If I see the dog first I can make her sit and give me her paw and then it's all good, but we've done that enough times that I really feel like she should have learned by now because she's been so fast learning everything else!

She's the same with barking at people (not dogs) on the off-leash beach. If anyone gets too near to us (about 5m or so) she starts barking until we talk to them or they move away. She'll come to us instantly when called and will stop barking, but will keep on watching. Her tail is constantly wagging and she doesn't look aggressive in her posture, she actually looks like she's enjoying herself and other people find it funny/cute, but she won't always be a fuzzy puppy!

Is it likely to be her being protective and if so what can we do to stop her being so vocal about it?

Thanks!

[Kavik]

It could be a number of things. Excitement/high arousal, frustration at not being able to say hi right away are the things that come to mind right away given the age and breed.

One important thing to note is that distance is your friend :) If she is barking/lunging etc she is over threshold and too aroused to take in training, so if you can find the distance at which she is interested in dogs and people but not barking/lunging, this is the distance where you can start some work.

Look At That is one thing you may want to look into - teaches an automatic response of look at the person/dog and then look back at the handler for a reward (without a cue).

http://clickerleash.wordpress.com/2009/08/23/look-at-that-a-counterintuitive-approach-to-dealing-with-reactive-dogs/

[Amax-1]

Is it likely to be her being protective and if so what can we do to stop her being so vocal about it?

No, pups at 4 months old are not mature enough to be protective and in actual fact especially in working breeds what people think is protective, is usually the dog acting aggressively from insecurity and weak nerves. Aside from territorial aggression, a Shepherd breed shouldn't act aggressively untrained unless directly provoked or they sense handler fear. What often happens with reactive dogs who initially show aggression from insecurity is the handler fears the dog will light up or lunge at someone making the situation worse.

The situation where the dog is a bit short on nerve and feels insecure at the approach of strangers or other dogs, then the handler tenses up worried about the dog lunging aggressively, the dog thinks it's a real threat to be dealt with and then you potentially have dog who wants to take everyone's head off on a casual walk around the street. When the dog is a Shepherd or a protection breed, people often misconstrued which is essentially fear biting as police dog candidate of toughness and strength.

Tough hard nerved dogs couldn't care less what's happening around them as they have the genetic confidence to override fear and you have to train them to bite people or apprehend offenders. The same dog on a different training path could be a therapy dog at a children's hospital as the toughness and nerve strength in such a dog caps aggressive reactivity. :)

[Danie11e]

I don't think it's frustration at not being able to go say hi as she's not actually bothered about reaching them, she just makes noise, doesn't really lunge.

I shall certainly give the LAT game a go, though I need people she doesn't recognize. Might just have to set up a camp chair at the end of the driveway and wait for people to approach! :laugh:

*edited to add*

Amax-1: As I mentioned she doesn't look aggressive in her stance, so probably I am wrong in thinking it's not frustration at not being able to say hi straight away and has just learned pulling does no good. We've never been worried about aggression from her, so if anything she's probably picked up amusement at her barking rather than fear from us.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Danie11e

[Kavik]

It could also be that she is nervous/insecure or in a fear period.

My previous dog was dog aggressive, and when I started LAT I found it useful to be on the other side of the street from other dogs, as then I could relax more because the road between us meant that there was no way she could get near the other dog, and I could then concentrate more on the training rather than stressing.

[Amax-1]

I don't think it's frustration at not being able to go say hi as she's not actually bothered about reaching them, she just makes noise, doesn't really lunge.

I shall certainly give the LAT game a go, though I need people she doesn't recognise. Might just have to set up a camp chair at the end of the driveway and wait for people to approach! :laugh:

Personally at 4 months I would expose her to more people.....take her to the shopping centre and start out around the perimeter and slowly move her in as she gains confidence but keep her under threshold. Shopping centres are great for exposing pups to people and environmental factors, cars, noise it's all there to put to good use. Over time, you will be able to walk her around the footpath amongst people and she will take it all in her stride. Shopping centres are one of the best places I have ever found readily available for desensitising reactive or nervous dogs to environmental elements and people. :D

[Amax-1]

It could also be that she is nervous/insecure or in a fear period.

My previous dog was dog aggressive, and when I started LAT I found it useful to be on the other side of the street from other dogs, as then I could relax more because the road between us meant that there was no way she could get near the other dog, and I could then concentrate more on the training rather than stressing.

Handler stress has a lot to do with it.....years ago I had a GSD I thought I had fixed in reactivity, he was fine with me but he continued to lunge when my wife handled him.......problem was, my wife at 46kg was lighter than the dog and she stressed about controlling him if he really went off...she was worried about him biting someone ultimately. I put a muzzle on him and of course my wife's stress level reduced by half and the dog was fine. It was an eye opener at the time 18 years ago now how much effect that handler stress had on the dog's reactivity threshold.

Another stressor is a handler tightening the leash when someone approaches......obviously the handler wants to make sure they have good leash control if the dog does try to act out, but keeping the leash loose with the dog at heel ignoring the approaching person or dog will raise the reactivity threshold. Here comes someone, so pull the dog in tight on the leash suddenly and stress about it alerts the dog to potential threat that the dog is already insecure about with the handler's actions intensifying the dog's insecurity.

[Nekhbet]

You need to teach the dog a LEAVE command to signal 'it's none of your business' and to redirect focus. You need to signal to the dog to attach no value to the stimulus on your command, and she picks it up first she needs to look to you for a signal to tell her what to do.

Contact Petresortsaustralia.com.au about training or about recommendation of someone close to you. I wouldn't get internet advice for something like this I would get someone with actual experience in working breeds to give you a proper head start with the dog.

No, pups at 4 months old are not mature enough to be protective and in actual fact especially in working breeds what people think is protective, is usually the dog acting aggressively from insecurity and weak nerves. Aside from territorial aggression, a Shepherd breed shouldn't act aggressively untrained unless directly provoked or they sense handler fear. What often happens with reactive dogs who initially show aggression from insecurity is the handler fears the dog will light up or lunge at someone making the situation worse.

You should have seen my little bitch then ... 7 weeks old and took a flying leap from the couch to try and attach herself to my friend after he wouldn't back off :p

[Danie11e]

We can walk around town and the estate with no issues as long as there are no dogs. Then when she's off leash dogs are fine and people become the issue. Thinking about it now I don't think she reacts anywhere near as much when I'm out with mum and her dog, so I assume walking more often with them could help get her into the habit of not reacting?

[Kavik]

[

Handler stress has a lot to do with it.....years ago I had a GSD I thought I had fixed in reactivity, he was fine with me but he continued to lunge when my wife handled him.......problem was, my wife at 46kg was lighter than the dog and she stressed about controlling him if he really went off...she was worried about him biting someone ultimately. I put a muzzle on him and of course my wife's stress level reduced by half and the dog was fine. It was an eye opener at the time 18 years ago now how much effect that handler stress had on the dog's reactivity threshold.

Another stressor is a handler tightening the leash when someone approaches......obviously the handler wants to make sure they have good leash control if the dog does try to act out, but keeping the leash loose with the dog at heel ignoring the approaching person or dog will raise the reactivity threshold. Here comes someone, so pull the dog in tight on the leash suddenly and stress about it alerts the dog to potential threat that the dog is already insecure about with the handler's actions intensifying the dog's insecurity.

I agree, handler stress makes a big difference! That is one reason I really liked LAT, it really helped to reduce my stress levels. Previously I had been trying to correct aggressive behaviour, which made me stressed and looking at her behaviour through the lens of do I need to correct her, but with LAT my mindset changed to look for opportunities to reward her, and it made a huge difference in my attitude and stress levels.

[megan_]

We can walk around town and the estate with no issues as long as there are no dogs. Then when she's off leash dogs are fine and people become the issue. Thinking about it now I don't think she reacts anywhere near as much when I'm out with mum and her dog, so I assume walking more often with them could help get her into the habit of not reacting?

Personally, I'd see a professional. Someone like Steve at K9Pro (who has working line mals). It couldn't be excitement, it could be weak nerves/fear agression). She might be a pup now, but I doubt you'd want her barking at people when a fully grown dog. I for one wouldn't appreciate it. Rather than try a bunch of things that may or may not work, I'd get someone like Steve to assess her in person (or via video) and come up with a program to help her over this issue.

[VizslaMomma]

We can walk around town and the estate with no issues as long as there are no dogs. Then when she's off leash dogs are fine and people become the issue. Thinking about it now I don't think she reacts anywhere near as much when I'm out with mum and her dog, so I assume walking more often with them could help get her into the habit of not reacting?

This is Ok.

But to help you and the dog, do consider some training from a professional. Seeing you face to face with the dog, they can go over the scenario & adjust methods.

Long term, you can have the fun of walking a dog that needs no reaction from you of pulling or tugging a lead.

[persephone]

We can walk around town and the estate with no issues as long as there are no dogs. Then when she's off leash dogs are fine and people become the issue. Thinking about it now I don't think she reacts anywhere near as much when I'm out with mum and her dog, so I assume walking more often with them could help get her into the habit of not reacting?

Personally, I'd see a professional. Someone like Steve at K9Pro (who has working line mals). It couldn't be excitement, it could be weak nerves/fear agression). She might be a pup now, but I doubt you'd want her barking at people when a fully grown dog. I for one wouldn't appreciate it. Rather than try a bunch of things that may or may not work, I'd get someone like Steve to assess her in person (or via video) and come up with a program to help her over this issue.

Agree! barking at people who come to the door , as well. That can very quickly be a habit you do not want .. and it can be so rewarding for her , that she may ramp it up ;0

[Nekhbet]

Belgians are special, let me tell you I have 4 working Malinois and they are a pain in the bum when they are young - what you describe is quite normal... BUT the point is more get yourself the help now because they are such pains in the bum. And they remember things very quickly. What you find OK now can escalate into a problem you find hard to control in a short space of time. Barking at others and at the door uncontrollably is unacceptable, particularly in a dog that will love the sound of its own voice and using it.

Dont do internet and guess work. I warn you now. I've spent over 10 years with Belgians and if you have a problem that you're not used to go fix it with someone that does. NOW. Internet advice and guess work with your pup wont help you. Honestly this is nothing to do with weak nerve and fear it's a typical puppy just being a loud little so and so. I gave you a link to a person I trust and trains other trainers from around Australia practically.

[Amax-1]

[

Handler stress has a lot to do with it.....years ago I had a GSD I thought I had fixed in reactivity, he was fine with me but he continued to lunge when my wife handled him.......problem was, my wife at 46kg was lighter than the dog and she stressed about controlling him if he really went off...she was worried about him biting someone ultimately. I put a muzzle on him and of course my wife's stress level reduced by half and the dog was fine. It was an eye opener at the time 18 years ago now how much effect that handler stress had on the dog's reactivity threshold.

Another stressor is a handler tightening the leash when someone approaches......obviously the handler wants to make sure they have good leash control if the dog does try to act out, but keeping the leash loose with the dog at heel ignoring the approaching person or dog will raise the reactivity threshold. Here comes someone, so pull the dog in tight on the leash suddenly and stress about it alerts the dog to potential threat that the dog is already insecure about with the handler's actions intensifying the dog's insecurity.

I agree, handler stress makes a big difference! That is one reason I really liked LAT, it really helped to reduce my stress levels. Previously I had been trying to correct aggressive behaviour, which made me stressed and looking at her behaviour through the lens of do I need to correct her, but with LAT my mindset changed to look for opportunities to reward her, and it made a huge difference in my attitude and stress levels.

The only problem with LAT is that it's an avoidance exercise which doesn't teach the dog that aggressive lunging isn't tolerated and because you cant train every scenario where the dog may react, they can revert back to aggressive lunging in circumstances they feel insecure. You can successfully train in LAT for causal walks and average environmental challenges, but fix lunging dogs properly, they need to fear correction as a consequence. Having said that, the level of leash correction isn't pleasant and loving dogs, hard corrections isn't something you feel good about doing so, yes, that does elevate stress enormously. Ecollars and prong collars reduce handler stress in correcting dogs creating their mass popularity in aversive based training methods. Slip collars are better to remove reactive drive from a dog is what Cesar Milan does with "his leash".....as the dog starts to take a reactive mindset, he applies an air block if you watch closely, the dog's mind is then on breathing and not reacting at the other dog. The dog learns over time that the thought of reacting aggressively he/she develops breathing issues....primal instinct determines the dog shall breath above all else is how air blocking correctly timed eliminates reactive behaviour.....however it's not something an in-experienced handler/owner can easily get right. LAT has it's merits as a good compromise to lessen reactivity episodes in general handling of the dog. :)

[Kavik]

IT was a lot to do with the mindset of looking for something to correct that I found stressful - sort of like always needing to be on your guard, waiting for the dog to do something wrong so you could correct it. Made me very anxious and stressed. Whereas with LAT, looking for something to reward , just that difference in mindset, made a big difference in my stress levels.

Ideally, you train LAT to mean, any time you see something you are not sure about, you can look at it to acknowledge it and then you look back at the handler for a reward, so if you generalise this across enough situations/stimuli it should work for most scenarios you come across. :)

Edited November 5, 2014 by Kavik

[Simply Grand]

LAT is not an avoidance exercise, it's a conditioning exercise. You are conditioning both a new association with the stimulus and an alternate behavioural response.

It's the same principle as a dog modifying its behaviour because it fears punishment in certain situations, it just uses positive consequences rather than negative.

Also, LAT is only the beginning of a process. The idea is to use LAT to create a calm mindset in the dog and show it that it has some control of the situation. You can then increase exposure to whatever it is the dog reacts to and show them that there is no benefit to them in reacting and continue to build a positive association rather than a negative one.

You could achieve the same using punishment if the punishment genuinely puts the dog into a calmer state of mind but you have a high risk of creating other negative associations.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Simply Grand

[BC Crazy]

Interesting insight Amax-1. I am having a lot of success with LAT but I too get quite stressed at times when Stella is having a anxious moment. She can catch me off guard & I panic instead of keeping my head clear to handle the situation. I am working very hard to control my behaviour now & breath. I also have learnt to sharpen up my incoming dog 'radar'.

Although Stella has improved tonnes she still will charge up to some other dogs & make the stay away from me if given the opportunity. It's so frustrating because she is so obedient in every other aspect. I use a slip collar on her as I don't think I'm experienced enough to use an E or other.

I have seen trainers & a really good Vet Behaviorist which helped me understand my girl a whole lot better. They taught me some new methods LAT being one of them. My girl has other issues as well though so we are managing well all things considered.

Totally agree with others though & firmly believe that the OP should get professional, breed savvy help with this puppy NOW before this behaviour escalates.

Edited November 5, 2014 by BC Crazy

[Jemmy]

I definitely think get some professional help as well, my GSD was similar and we thought she'd grow out of it... Now she's 8 months old and people find it much more intimidating, we're working with a trainer but I do wish I'd bitten the bullet earlier on making that call.