Innotek Dog Collars

[KitKat]

They can be used without a 'main' fence, little flags are put up to indicate the boundries, training is done around the entire boundry so that the dog knows the beep sound is the same as 'aagh' or 'no' etc.

But it's not how i would use it myself.

The problem i have is other dogs can wander in to the 'yard' adn if the dog with the collar on races out, it gets zapped....but can't get back into the yard due to it knowing it will be 'reprimanded' by the fenceline again.

[Guest afton]

I know QLD Laws are different (was told that by the RSPCA). I believe in training your dog and making it fun through praise, persistence, patience etc. as dogs enjoy pleasing their masters and you can see it in how the dog reacts and am totally against the electronic methods of zapping them into submission.

Afton

PS it's in the General forum

Edited April 29, 2005 by afton

[MaxSpots]

I've read the link now (in the general section)

No alarm bells ringing here, she's aware of the limitations (risks with visitors forcing the dogs near the flags) and she's getting lots of sensible training advice from the other members.

[KitKat]

Zapped into submission? perhaps come back once you have once you have felt a 'zap' or seen the thing work. No one on this forum likes to see a dog beaten into submission...but this isn't what these fences do.

And i have my boy trained...in fact if we could both be bothed we could walk in and get a quali in a UD ring with only a smidge of refresher practice

Here is a pic of my supposed 'zapped into submission' dog, If you look closed on the left side of his neck you can even see his zappy collar.

[m-j]

The local RSPCA guy here prosecuted some people from Qld and won only 2 yrs ago for selling e collars at the Henty(NSW) field days, according to the local paper.

For another look into e fences go to a search engine and type in Richard Polsky, he has made some good points.

The best thing I have found for keeping digging dogs in is lay some chicken wire flat on the ground up against the fence and peg it down, I make the pegs from heavy gauge fencing wire. The dogs don't think to walk back 2 feet from the fence and start tunneling, but I know dogs will keep digging down if you bury bottom the fence or add to it, under the ground

cheers

M-J

[Guest afton]

Can you say that a dog chasing it's ball in a game and being zapped by the fence as the ball went past the unseen boundary, plus walking with someone throught it and then having to walk through it again to get back in (being zapped both times) isn't cruel or sending confusing messages to the dog!

Afton

[Fin]

Zapped into submission? perhaps come back once you have once you have felt a 'zap' or seen the thing work.

I was going to say exactly the same thing. Anyone who has a big problem with these type of devices (OK the older ones apparently are a little harsh) should go and try one on their own neck. I've done this on a typical level on a new collar and you can barely feel it. Compare this to a check chain/prong/any other corrective tool and it's really quite mild (and yes I have strapped a check chain on and tried it too).

[Hazz]

Ok Afton and what about those people trying to "train" their dogs who constantly use slip chains, halti's, gentle leaders etc etc incorrectly causing pain and sending confusing messages to the dog ?

Also I believe in refering to the thread on Eques regarding the balls and whatever was actually the person's friends and people on that forum have given this person positive advice in teaching these people about the fence.

By the way do you use electric fences on your horses ?, some people believe this to be cruel as well.

KitKat your lovely 'zapped into submisson' doggie looks awfully happy :rolleyes:

Edit: We were posting at the same time Fin - I too have tried a slip chain (ouchies, esp. if used incorrectly) btw nice Wei !

Edited April 29, 2005 by Hazz

[MaxSpots]

Can you say that a dog chasing it's ball in a game and being zapped by the fence as the ball went past the unseen boundary, plus walking with someone throught it and then having to walk through it again to get back in (being zapped both times) isn't cruel or sending confusing messages to the dog!

Afton

Yes you're right afton

But I understood from the thread you posted that those situations were because of the visitors, not the owner. She was just as upset as you are.

A bit hard to discuss threads across different forums :rolleyes:

I can see where you are coming from

best to add your concerns to the original thread on that forum.

As to zap collars in general, they have their pros and cons and it depends on the individual dogs behaviour and how they are used (or missused) as to whether they are cruel or not.

I've never used or seen one so I'll stop commenting on this thread now

I was just curious about the legal stuff which is why I jumped in.

cheers

[KitKat]

M-J...i have tried everything...and there is already cement along the fence line, i tagged chicken wire to the fence and pegged it to the ground...my boy pulled out the pegs, nibbled off the tags, nibbled off the clips i had used to fasten the cyclone fence to the guide wire...and then rolled out under it. People don't usually believe it until they see it...he can get out from very very small gaps.

Can you say that a dog chasing it's ball in a game and being zapped by the fence as the ball went past the unseen boundary

That's a handler issue then isn't it? Rather cruel to tease a dog like that. Mind you if you toss a ball near my fence line my dog won't go after it because he knows he's not allowed near the fence.

, plus walking with someone throught it and then having to walk through it again to get back in (being zapped both times)

This is out and out cruelty by the handler again, after all the collars can be taken off. If the person walking him thru it is lousy enough not to take the collar off the dog then they have some serious issues. And my boy has learnt that he if is on a lead he can move past the fence line, as i put his training collar on and take off the zappy collar, but otherwise he's not allowed.

[ninaandted]

QUOTE 

Can you say that a dog chasing it's ball in a game and being zapped by the fence as the ball went past the unseen boundary 

That's a handler issue then isn't it? Rather cruel to tease a dog like that. Mind you if you toss a ball near my fence line my dog won't go after it because he knows he's not allowed near the fence.

QUOTE 

, plus walking with someone throught it and then having to walk through it again to get back in (being zapped both times) 

This is out and out cruelty by the handler again, after all the collars can be taken off. If the person walking him thru it is lousy enough not to take the collar off the dog then they have some serious issues. And my boy has learnt that he if is on a lead he can move past the fence line, as i put his training collar on and take off the zappy collar, but otherwise he's not allowed.

that was exactly my point too. its the humans that are wrong here, not necessarily the "fence". if someone has the perverse desire to hurt a dog they don't need an expensive fence!!

I think this issue needs to be considered in context. if there is a greater threat to the dog (getting run over, being PTS at the pound, neighbours retaliating etc) then you have to consider realistic options. any responsible owner would have gone through all the other possible options available at the time and that can be realistically implemented, just as KitKat has.

[Guest afton]

Why didn't the owners rent/buy something with appropriate secure fencing in the first place?

One of my dobes is left loose in our house yard, she doesn't wonder (only fenced on 3 sides). When I'm at the gate she usually sits there and I enter, sometimes will start to walk through the gate and I just send her back) then runs back up to the house. We have taken her up the back paddock as I went next door and I shut the boundary gate so she stayed on our property (boundary fence is 4 plain strands of wire). She then paced up and down the fence line (about 200 -300 metres in that section), sat, looked, paced sat again and at no time did she even attempt to leave our property even though I was next door with another of our dogs. She has never had to have one of those collars on.

Afton

[Hownd]

electronic methods of zapping them into submission.

Afton

Do some research on how these things are designed to be used, before you start spouting such strong opinions.

Try HERE to see the recommended use for of the Innotec system. Tell me where it encourages or advocates zapping your dog into submission.

Used correctly, these things have saved the lives of many serial escape artists.

I've seen sheepdogs work using electric collars at great distances to great effect and they are in no way zapped into submission. In fact they start doing laps and spinning on the spot as soon as they see the collar because they know they are going to get to do some work.

Haltis, slip chains, prong collars, flat collars and e collars can all do damage and inflict cruelty in uneducated hands. Used correctly they can all help you achieve your goals for your dog.

Your assertions of "Zapping into submission" suggest to me that you have formed an opinion without the benefit of knowledge. Do some research, consider the facts, then decide what is right for you.

The RSPCA know how much an uneducated opinion of e-collars can cost. Click Here for more info.

I do not know the legalities of e-collars in any state, but I doubt the RSPCA or the manufacturers would be the people to go to for an accurate answer.

[ninaandted]

that's really great for you aton and i'm happy that your dog behaves that way for you.

but... dogs' natures vary, from breed to breed and individual dog. And dogs may behave one way without any stimulation, but completely differently under another situation. for instance if another dog was going past the property, or a small animal etc.

i wouldn't risk having my dogs under the arrangement that seems to work for yours. I know that one of my dogs would be off for a chase if another dog went past, whereas the other would just ignore it completely. I also have to go to work each day and can't supervise them and would not leave them under those conditions without someone home all day.

just as I wouldn't say that every dog needed one of these fences, I couldn't say that they wouldn't be useful for some dogs.

just because you have been fortunate enough to have a dog that behaves in that way doesn't mean that all dogs will, or that the owners of the dogs that don't haven't provided any training. some instincts are bred into dogs and that will dominate their nature.

Edited April 29, 2005 by ninaandted

[KitKat]

Why didn't the owners rent/buy something with appropriate secure fencing in the first place?

I don't know...there could be a multitude of reasons. The last place i was in i made a deal with the realestate/landlord. I would put in side fences, to block access from front yard to back yard and they would repair the rear fence. Untli that time my dog was on a chain :rolleyes: , i had just moved out of the 'marital' home and had limited choices...i put up the front fences and by the time they put up the rear fence i was at the end my lease and moved into another place. Because i didn't have anything on paper...well...they did as they liked.

As to you and your Dobe....you are lucky, but not every one is. And I know for one thing in my area a person is legally required to keep their dog secure on their property, and provide unobstructed access to the front door...which is slowly becoming to mean that dogs are required to have restricted access to the front yard.

Friends of mine have a dog, they have a fence around their property...but it's not much of a fence. Their dog has never wandered...but put my dog in that yard and he'd be out after he finished checking the place over.

My GSD pup seems to be another matter...i tested him last night while putting the bins out and he dodn't come out the gate...but he was tempted. I find it unlikely that he will need a collar...but my older boy will keep his.

[Koza]

Better electric fence, than a dead dog. After all, we all live in non-ideal conditions. To keep some dogs inside, the house would have to be turned into a fortress. And what if the gate is left open by some reason? Dead dog, again. At least, my dogs always stay inside, and nothing can make them to run out. They are happy. They just don't go through carport, that's it.

Not all people can have huge fences, and sometimes it's easier to put pts the dog than to find a rental house. What should they do?

Edited April 29, 2005 by Koza

[Koza]

in Logan any "non-standard" fence is permitted after a council approval.

[Koza]

Why didn't the owners rent/buy something with appropriate secure fencing in the first place?

Afton

It's like asking why aren't we rich and healthy to start with? For a simple example, we can't put a fence in front of the house due to boundary issues. It will take about a year to resolve them. It will take Stella 30 sec to run to highway.

[MaxSpots]

I do not know the legalities of e-collars in any state, but I doubt the RSPCA or the manufacturers would be the people to go to for an accurate answer.

Good point

I went and checked out the current legislation

great website for checking things like this

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/search/inforce

Not that it's relevant to the discussion anymore but here it is for anyone else interested

sorry for long post but I wanted to be sure :rolleyes:

NSW

Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979 No 200

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16 Certain electrical devices not to be used upon animals

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Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (General) Regulation 1996

Schedule 1 Electrical devices

(Clause 13)

Column 1

Type of device

Column 2

*Purpose or circumstance

Electro-immobiliser

*Restraining cattle, but only if used by a veterinary surgeon for purposes other than as an alternative to analgesia or anaesthesia

Electric stock prod

*Driving, herding, mustering or controlling weaned cattle or swine

Electric fence

*Confining, controlling or protecting animals (except dogs and cats)

Electro-ejaculator

*Collecting semen from conscious cattle or sheep

Collecting semen from animals that have been tranquillised and administered with an analgesic or animals that have been anaesthetised

The device sold under the name of a Kawe stock prod (including any similar device delivering an electric shock of no greater intensity or duration than a Kawe stock prod)

*Controlling horses being used in a rodeo

Electric stock grid

*Confining stock animals (except poultry)

Electric fightback lure

*Training coursing dogs

Electro-fishing device

*Catching fish species under licence, permit or authority under the Fisheries Management Act 1994 or in accordance with the Animal Research Act 1985

The device sold under the name Pingg String (including any similar device delivering an electric shock of no greater intensity or duration than a Pingg String)

*Confining dogs or cats, but only if used inside a fence through which dogs or cats cannot pass and that is not less than 1.5 metres high

Canine invisible boundary

*Confining dogs, but only if used inside a fence through which dogs cannot pass and that is not less than 1.5 metres high

Electronic bird deterrent device

*Deterring birds from roosting on building ledges and other external building surfaces

Any other device producing an electrical discharge that is used in such a way that the animal in relation to which it is being used cannot move away from the device

-------------------------------------

Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (General) Regulation 1996

Status Information

Currency of version

This is the latest version of this legislation.

Legislation on this site is usually updated within 3 working days after a change to the legislation.

This version was last updated on 31 August 2004.

This version relates to the period commencing on 21 July 2000 to date.

Act under which legislation made

This legislation was made under the Prevention of Cruelty Animals Act 1979

Date made

23 August 1996

Edited April 29, 2005 by MaxSpots

[KitKat]

Electro-ejaculator

Collecting semen from conscious cattle or sheep

I have only one thing to say here "OUCH!!!"