Scottie & Anxiety

[Scottsmum]

Also remember that you can't reinforce 'feelings' and 'emotions' so if he is feeling stressed don't feel bad about letting him sit and chill with you (when you have the time). I do this with my storm phobic dogs by curling up on my bed and reading a book- they have both improved just by being able to have contact with me.

Yes. I let him sit on me when he needs to. He's on my belly now. I take big deep slow breaths and that really helps. Unfortunately it means I cant get much/anything done.

[Jemmy]

I'm not in Sydney, but both petshops in my town in Tassie sold them, so I'd say there's a high chance somewhere near you does. My local Petbarn stocks them, even though they weren't on their website so it may be worthwhile just giving a couple of places a call.

Edited for spelling

Edited December 6, 2014 by Jemmy

[Scottsmum]

Thanks Jemmy. I did mean to pop back in and say I found them at petbarn but they were sold out in his size and they were also about $20 more expensive then I can get them from K9 Pro.

Looks like I'll order from them - would rather give them my money anyhow :)

[Scottsmum]

Um. Sadly I've got a quickly escalating problem on my paws.

Someone - lets just say his name *might* be Scottie - has been really naughty recently. It's kind of hard to discuss fully in a public forum, but, basically, things have changed a lot in the last 8 weeks. In the last 2-3 weeks I've noticed that he's been digging a lot on the couches and he's been chucking what I call tantrums - pulling things off the shelf in the hall.

In the last week the tantrums have escalated and today I got home and he'd shredded a cardboard box.

As I said above - things have changed a lot around here in the last 8 weeks but I'm trying really hard to make sure things are reasonably normal for him.

He's still on his endep / amitriptyline - 10mg twice a day. He's still getting walked at least twice a day - a boring quick 15 minute walk around the block in the morning. At least 20-30 minutes to the off-leash for fetch in the evening. Long walks with the walker twice a week, longer walks with me when ever I can (Saturday mornings, we run at the off leash for as long it takes for me to finish a large coffee), sunday we still go to obedience. The biggest change here is the morning walk which used to be 30-60 minutes with off leash time.

So..... I'm about to go on holiday next week and Scottie's supposed to be staying at home with our room mate - with the dog walker coming in twice a a day. Then I'm home for 5 days and I'm away for another week for uni. He's supposed to be going to my Aunt's where he'll be well looked after but will be getting a lot less exercise while he's there. I'm away for a week in Mid-May and in late May he and I are moving again - unfortunately for him to a space where he'll have to be a mainly outside dog.

Help! What do I do in the short term??? (eg I leave for work on Wednesday morning and don't come home for 6 days)!!!

Edited to add: I slept on it & we'll be off to our vet asap today as a very first step.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Scottsmum

[AussieDogLover]

Heya!

Poor little Scottie...sounds like you're doing all the right things with the meds etc though!

I had a friend who had an Aussie Shepherd with really bad anxiety, she downloaded a book which had heaps of free info in it that she said helped her a great deal...she said it was awesome!

I found the link! : http://howtotreatseparationanxietyindogs.com/the-cure/

Anyway, good luck with little Scottie! :-) xx

[Scottsmum]

Thanks Aussie. I'll absolutely have a good read of that.

The great news is he's really settled and happy at the moment.

We've had a really unsettled year, but we're currently living with my retired parents, so he has someone around the house most of the time. He's not allowed in the house, which has been been hard on him, but he's still settled and happy.

No signs of destructive behavior, one of the "kids" in the street (he'd be 25 these days) walks him 2-4 times a week for me, I do an additional AM walk and some off leash pottering in the evenings & he spends the rest of the day on his trampoline bed in the sun. One of the folks takes his jumper off around 10 and puts it back on around 4 & he gets a few sneaky treats when ever they feed the Maggies and Kookas - so even though he's terribly poorly done by - the whole no couch thing is terribly sad - he's really settled and relaxed now that there is a lot less external pressure on him, and me.

:)

[Scottsmum]

Updated Jan 2016 / Am I on the right track?

Hi Guys, I've edited the first post in this thread and also posting at the bottom. Need some feedback re: Scotties SA.

Prior to the move to NZ he and I were living with my parents - while this was great it meant that he had someone around almost all the time. We got him down to 10mg Endep during this time. Any less and it wasn’t effective.

Since the move I've been home almost 100% of the time. When I'm not home it's never for more than 4 hours and I either crate him or chain him up in the yard. Depending on weather or wind. When he's chained up he has access to his bed in the laundry, a bed and kennel in the sun + the grass - both shade and sun & he can see around the corner of the house to the street.

He’s not currently on any SA meds.

So up until recently he'd been, or appeared to have been, really good on the chain. Happy to go on, happy and relaxed when we got home, usually chilling in his bed. No problems. But this week we came home to him howling one day, and I ducked out and did the groceries today (absolute 2 hours max) and got home to "unhappy puppy noises" - He wasn't howling the street down as I came in but I suspect he might have been. Immediate neighbours aren’t home during the day but others in the street are.

So obviously I can't have him crying when he's on the chain. To be honest, I suspect he'd howl even if he was off the chain but locked in the yard.

He can't be left off the chain as the fences are just 4 foot and I'm not convinced the yard is dog proof in multiple places. (under fence, over fence and under house).

He can't be left with free range in the house or in the house with access to the yard because he digs holes in the carpet / pulls things off and out of shelves and shreds any paper he finds – even when he’s medicated + there are the same issues with the fence.

I start work placement in 4 weeks time - which is 3 weeks full time work and obviously I'm job hunting at the moment so I need something in place to help us cope.

I have drawn up a little plan which is basically to track mood and behaviour and so I can make sure he's walked morning and night & track that too. I also pencilled in to do some conditioning or something else which will tire him out before he's tied up for the day.

I also have a small kong - he's not that in to it - but I can offer it to him

with some frozen mince in it. He's not a big chewer / interested in food and he often eats his breakfast frozen so offering a bone or otherwise isn't going to help immensely - it will some but not a lot.

I also have a bit of a plan to tie him up for different durations at random times on random days over the following month but I am really worried 8 + hours a day will throw him into melt down mode.

He does have SA meds - as outlined on this thread in previous posts. The prescribing vet said I can scale it up and down and I have planned to scale him up to a full dose while I'm on placement. Which might be enough as they zonk him out pretty hard.

Other possible options:

Crate him - 8 + hours a day feels a bit mean. I know he can do it physically but to be honest I think he'd hate it (that said, considering how cold summer is – I think this is the most likely option for winter – I can’t see him being happy or comfortable anywhere else in winter). It’s likely he’ll still cry but at least the sound will be muffled by the house and he’s usually amazingly accepting of his crate. He spent the entire time I was living at Dads being crated over night (12 hours) and only had one or two big tantys about it. He’s have to hold his bladder/bowels.

I could try locking him in the kitchen (where he won’t be able to dig holes in the carpet) he might be able to cause other problems (scratched doors possibly scratched lino- is that a thing?) and he’d still have to hold on for the duration of the day – but it could be a ‘nicer’ version than his crate?

I do live close enough to the place I'll be doing placement to come home in my lunch break and walk him or I could come home and swap him from crate/kitchen to chain or vice versa. Coming home in my break isn't likely to be an option when I start work just one of the reasons I'm seeking out part time work! (yikes)

We can't afford a dog walker at the moment and I don't think we have a lot of options there anyhow. I did google doggy day care (as a short term solution) but only found one option and a fair drive out of my way every day.

We do have a small cage thing – which we were required to buy as part of our lease – I could give that a try (Image attached) the two parts are separate but they butt up flush against each other.

Again, he'd probably hold on but if he did need to wee it wouldnt be as much of a problem.

We could build or buy a run but to be honest money is tight and I do think he’d probably cry in there too. – the chain does give him good flexibility and options. I just wish I could reason with him.

So in summary:

More walking,

more drugs closer to the time

a kong

some conditioning exercises or nose work or something else which zaps his enegry

fingers crossed?

[Scottsmum]

Oh gosh, what a difficult situation. I'm not really sure what to suggest. I think medication definitely needs to part of the plan, which you've already said you'll do. Did you end up getting a Thundershirt to try, which you were looking in to earlier in the thread? Since it's not hot over there like it is here, that should be able to be left on Scottie safely during the day. I think the exercise and training to tire him out are great ideas, as is the kong. I really don't think I could put a dog in a crate or one of those cages for 8+ hours. That's a long time to be in a confined space. With your question about damaging lino, I imagine a dog that is highly stressed or determined would be able to do quite a bit of damage to it. If Scottie is destroying things even when medicated, it might be a good idea to see a vet behaviourist about whether some different medication might be more effective. I hope you can find a solution that works for both of you.

hrm.

I didn't get a shirt - I struggled to find one in his size (they were always sold out or some other excuse) then we moved in with the folks and they were there for scary storms.

I *don't* really mind the crate for 8 ish hours a day - as I said - he can do 10-12 hours over night and honestly if winter gets as cold as I'm expecting that's where he'll have to be. But it's certainly a last resort thing I could see 8 hours a day 5 days a week leading to other issues too.

He hasn't destroyed anything in a very long time *touch wood* it stays that way. I always thought it was loud noises which triggered it, but it's too hard to say. Anyhow... in the entire time we were at Dads he only did one thing which was remotely close to that behaviour - so I don't know what to say about that. I can't remember what drug dose he was on when he was destroying things but I was pretty stressed at that point which didn't help.

Have re-read my collection of SA related reading material and downloaded "The Practical Dog Listener" which is recommended in the Great Dane rescue SA reading material.

I think long story short - we really do need a behaviorist - we've limped along reasonably well over the last... 15 months (wow) but my eventual (and unavoidable) return to full time work will only put us in a shitty position again. However, until I have a steady income (or the promise of one) we've just going to have to keep limping along. One wage only goes so far. There's no extra for a behaviorist at the moment.

Hopefully a few DOLers will have some other suggestions

[Scottsmum]

Oh gosh, what a difficult situation. I'm not really sure what to suggest. I think medication definitely needs to part of the plan, which you've already said you'll do. Did you end up getting a Thundershirt to try, which you were looking in to earlier in the thread? Since it's not hot over there like it is here, that should be able to be left on Scottie safely during the day. I think the exercise and training to tire him out are great ideas, as is the kong. I really don't think I could put a dog in a crate or one of those cages for 8+ hours. That's a long time to be in a confined space. With your question about damaging lino, I imagine a dog that is highly stressed or determined would be able to do quite a bit of damage to it. If Scottie is destroying things even when medicated, it might be a good idea to see a vet behaviourist about whether some different medication might be more effective. I hope you can find a solution that works for both of you.

hrm.

I didn't get a shirt - I struggled to find one in his size (they were always sold out or some other excuse) then we moved in with the folks and they were there for scary storms.

I *don't* really mind the crate for 8 ish hours a day - as I said - he can do 10-12 hours over night and honestly if winter gets as cold as I'm expecting that's where he'll have to be. But it's certainly a last resort thing I could see 8 hours a day 5 days a week leading to other issues too.

He hasn't destroyed anything in a very long time *touch wood* it stays that way. I always thought it was loud noises which triggered it, but it's too hard to say. Anyhow... in the entire time we were at Dads he only did one thing which was remotely close to that behaviour - so I don't know what to say about that. I can't remember what drug dose he was on when he was destroying things but I was pretty stressed at that point which didn't help.

Have re-read my collection of SA related reading material and downloaded "The Practical Dog Listener" which is recommended in the Great Dane rescue SA reading material.

I think long story short - we really do need a behaviorist - we've limped along reasonably well over the last... 15 months (wow) but my eventual (and unavoidable) return to full time work will only put us in a shitty position again. However, until I have a steady income (or the promise of one) we've just going to have to keep limping along. One wage only goes so far. There's no extra for a behaviorist at the moment. *Edited to add: With hindsight - he's been like this since day one, it used to be that he wass happy left on the couch. Unfortunately the druggie neighbours saw a stop to that).

Hopefully a few DOLers will have some other suggestions

[Scottsmum]

Bump - Anyone?

Just as an addition: I found someone on pawshake who might do one or two days (per week) "day care" while I'm on placement. Just to give him some respite - she's got two foxies - look to be same build and one is a similar age to him.

So we'll meet her next week.

Also called the vet - their behaviorist isn't taking on new cases but they have a nurse who does a lot - so I've asked for her to call me back and I'll have a chat to her next week too. Scratch that - I have to see a "GP" vet and they'll liaise with the behaviorist in the first instance.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Scottsmum

[Scottsmum]

I hope the day care helps ease any stress for both of you, if you go ahead with it. When we saw the vet behaviourist the first time I was able to book directly with them but they required Justice to see his normal vet first for a thorough check up, blood tests and to arrange for his records to be sent to her. Although you wouldn't have a history with the GP vet there I imagine the check up and blood work would be a part of the process.

Hopefully someone else with more ideas than I had will pop in and offer some suggestions. :)

Thanks Snook. :) I have his full history - I got copies before the move including his bloods.

The behaviourist at the vet clinic we've been using isn't taking on any new clients full stop so first step is an appointment with the GP any how. He'll be able to re-issue more endep too I assume / hope. I can't see her agreeing to take up, what I assume is pretty basic SA. They do have a nurse who does a lot though (apparently) so maybe we'll get in to see her.

Can ask my vax questions while I'm there & will also take notes from this thread so I have a full personal history to give him too.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Good luck!

[Scottsmum]

Sorry to keep bombarding people - I only realized how valuable this thread was today when I sat down and copied over notes - key dates, drug doses, etc.

Went to obedience today. Had a coffee with the instructor before hand - who is one of the hits you get on google when you look for local behaviorists.

We had a good chat - she's such a wonderful warm person - I really like her and I think she really likes me because she gave me a discount for class too. I didn't want to outright ask for advice - because I can't pay her and I didn't want to ask for a freebie but she gave me some anyhow.

She suggested the kennel and run is best. Her reasoning is that it's safe. I can padlock it and secure it - he's safe from anyone or thing that comes on the property.

She also basically suggested the exact same things as above - exercise, kongs, frozen treats, mental exhaustion (A tired dog is a good dog). The biggest big of advice was to use next week to work him up to a couple of hours - feed breakfasts in there, lock him in for increasing periods with no pattern and work on getting him in there full time so he's in full time for at least a week before I go on placement.

She stressed that a month isn't a very long period of time and it's time for my to pull finger and really stressed that I need to know he can do it before I go on placement because the last thing I need is to be coping with him melting down while I'm also trying to do the work experience

So we'll try that - fingers crossed.... and we'll still see the vet in the next 2 weeks as we need a new script for out drugs.

[RuralPug]

I know that money is tight, but you can probably extend that kennel/run considerably by getting 10 meters or so of dog wire and a few poly pipes and bending the dog wire into a covered extension over the poly pipes in between the kennel and the built run. You can attach with twisted wire or similar. If he digs, make sure that the wire is on the "floor" as well.

The extra space will mean you will have room to put puzzle toys and things in the run to keep his brain busy. A cheap puzzle toy to make is an empty plastic bottle - remove the lid and any plastic ring around the neck and put a couple of ounces of treats (cat kibble in popular with my littlies).

But - especially in the beginning - make sure he little brain is tuckered out before you leave for the day. 10 mins of obedience training or tick training is worth 30 mins of plain exercise!

[Scottsmum]

Thanks Rural Pug - both great tips.

We've been trying him out there this week. I have put him on the chain - as much as the behaviourist said the run is a better idea I'm not convinced (cause I'm clearly the expert here ). It turns out the run isn't very weather proof - it rained heavily here this week and I noticed that approx 1/3 of inside the kennel got wet - as well as the run obviously- which means any bedding in there would get saturated too - so I'd come home to a cold wet cooped up dog. We'll contact the manufacturer and see what price it would be for a larger run - and possibly a weather strip of some description. Finances pending of course.

He's been OK. I've been putting him out, keeping as quiet as possible and keeping extremely detailed notes. Like peeing before I put him out, filling a water bottle, setting my timer and not moving at all detailed. I read / study/facebook and keep notes of how long, if at all he cries. He cried day one on 15 minutes but he's been good since until yesterday - when he cried a bit on 45 minutes (from about 30 mins). So I waited til he was quiet and went out to let him off. I've been putting him back out for a short second "go" when ever he cries (a few hours later - for 15ish minutes).

Aiming for an hour today - he's had a very long walk full of sniffs - through a part of our area/suburb we haven't been in weeks. It was such good sniffing he had a little lie down and sniffed so i couldnt make him hurry up! He was out for 15 mins earlier but hubby came (car, conversation, shower going, doors opening and closing - It's too early for him to be expected to shush with that going on) so I let him re-start.

Went to borrow "the practical dog listener" as recommended by SAS / Great Dane Rescue but it's out of the library at the moment so I have that on hold.

Will make him a snuffle mat next week - just need to gather supplies. Have also priced a flirt pole so we have more play options available to us.

I've also found a lovely lady on pawshake who does daycare/sitting - we did a meet and greet with her and one of her dogs this week (the other is currently recovering from cruciate surgery) - again - finances permitting we'll send him to her place twice a week while I'm on placement just to help him cope a little better / break the week up - unfortunately she only offers mon and fri - but it's better than nothing.

I'm hoping between the dog sitter and this "training" we might be OK. I'm also hoping I can pop home for lunch while I'm on placement. I did ask about split shifts or evenings but was told that wasn't really feasible. Unfortunately because I'll have the car it wont be easy for hubby to pop home unless he gets a big break in his day & walks or gets a lift. He's also nursing an injured tendon at the moment so he's unable to assist with dog walks and is not likely to want to walk back and forth too much. Hopefully he'll be a lot better in 2-ish weeks time.

[persephone]

I am going to comment on this :/

he's had a very long walk full of sniffs - through a part of our area/suburb we haven't been in weeks. It was such good sniffing he had a little lie down and sniffed so i couldnt make him hurry up!

if this was one of my dogs, I would be most embarrassed , and feel I'd failed . IMO , Lying down to sniff is the dog dictating what happens and when ;) I am presuming you gave him permission for some sniff time ....

you are working SO hard to get things on an even keel ...well done !!

[Scottsmum]

I am going to comment on this :/

he's had a very long walk full of sniffs - through a part of our area/suburb we haven't been in weeks. It was such good sniffing he had a little lie down and sniffed so i couldnt make him hurry up!

if this was one of my dogs, I would be most embarrassed , and feel I'd failed . IMO , Lying down to sniff is the dog dictating what happens and when ;) I am presuming you gave him permission for some sniff time .... you are working SO hard to get things on an even keel ...well done !!

I usually let him sniff the whole walk. Occasionally I make him heel the whole way and we get a bit of cardio in but I'm more than happy for him to wander along at his own pace and sniff all the things. We've got some road kill we've been checking in on for weeks. There is only a wing left but I'm informed, by him, it's "coming along well". I don't know what that means - I don't want to know. ;)

But in all seriousness - what you've just said above has never crossed my mind. He's never done anything like that before to me and I just put it down to a very long walk (longest with me in weeks), crossing a footy ground which is (most likely) covered in bunny poo and me using a bin right near a playground & skate ramp - I assumed it was part exhaustion, part sensory overload. I also wondered if it was his way of covertly trying to roll in it (what ever "it" was) - I do have rules - rolling in poo and dead things is off the list of approved activities.

I am going to comment on this :/

he's had a very long walk full of sniffs - through a part of our area/suburb we haven't been in weeks. It was such good sniffing he had a little lie down and sniffed so i couldnt make him hurry up!

if this was one of my dogs, I would be most embarrassed , and feel I'd failed . IMO , Lying down to sniff is the dog dictating what happens and when ;) I am presuming you gave him permission for some sniff time .... you are working SO hard to get things on an even keel ...well done !!

Seriously? When Justice has stopped to sniff like that and won't budge it's actually displacement sniffing caused by anxiety. Also, I don't think it's a failing as a dog owner to let your dog choose when he sniffs. If you want to walk your dogs in a manner that means they need permission for everything they want to do then that's fine but it doesn't mean that those of us who like to be leisurely and relaxed on our walks are doing it wrong or should be embarrassed.

Thanks Snook. I'm very rarely embarrassed by anything ;) I let him sniff to his hearts content - he'd run all day if he could and still not be tired - but he's zonked after a big sniff. I got a combined time of 65 minutes with no crying out of him today - so I take that as a win.

But it is interesting this has come up. I'd thought about, and done some reading on NILF but decided it wasn't for me. I don't think I could pull it off, but realise it has good points too. But this afternoon when I was sooking with Scottie over somthing hubby did actually tell me I'm spoiling him too much and he thinks that's the reason we're having trouble with him. I know that's not entirely correct but ... maybe I need to put some big girl panties on and really try NILF. Hope that book frees up at the library sooner rather than later...

[persephone]

:) he may well have been getting as close as possible to the deliciousness ;) ... and over an hour with no crying ? !!

[Scottsmum]

:) he may well have been getting as close as possible to the deliciousness ;) ... and over an hour with no crying ? !!

Who doesn't love a sneaky roll in poo.

[Scottsmum]

We made it to 90 minutes today. He had a bully stick, snuffle mat and ice block. Only used the bully stick.

Some whinging from 1hr 10 on but I'm hoping that's a bit of Monday blues - we we gave him a break yesterday. Back out for 15-30 minutes this afternoon - as I try to give another short session if he's cried in the long one. Will put ice block back out for him too (kibble, pork mince and blueberry - yummy)

Found a new off leash not too far from home which appears to be hardly used and bonus points for not sharing with a bike path! It's not ideal in terms of location (it is too close to a road and a hedge he could bugger off under but it works and will be great with a long line - but it will give him some off leash - which he's been missing. He totally derped out yesterday - it was adorable.

Half way through "the practical dog listener" not loving it but I will reserve judgement until I'm finished.