Trust Is A Disease

[teekay]

I wouldn't let my dog off lead in an unfenced area right by a road, but she is regularly in unfenced areas like parks, forests and up in the hills... I can't imagine not seeing her running free, happy and off lead every week while we're out hiking :)

Yep this. There is a big difference between being off lead in a large open area and off lead next to a road. Common sense must prevail. It does upset me when I see a dog happily trotting next to it's owener, off lead, beside the road. The what ifs do pop into my head, but in open areas there is much less chance of tragedy. Your dog is never going to be safe from all hazards, even in your back yard there may be snakes, when I give them bones there is a risk of choking, however small, but we can't and shouldn't wrap them in cotton wool. Just like we shouldn't do with our kids. Bad things do happen but we have to take sensible precautions to avoid them and let our dogs be dogs and our kids be kids.

Oh and feel I should point out my husky is never ever off lead outside of the garden not even from the car to the front door, different rules apply to her :laugh: But, as husky says, I do not believe a husky can't have great recall but I will admit mine does not and, realistically, I have not got the skills to teach her. If I lived closer to K9Pro I may have taken up the challenge though :D

[CHA]

My two dogs - we came home from a walk, let them off their leads in the front yard as per usual, stopped for a while and chatted about the garden when all of a sudden a cat who had been hiding under a bush, couldn't cope any more with hiding and raced out in front of the dogs, across the road with both dogs in close pursuit I had them both under control pretty quickly but certainly not before they raced over the road with the cat. I will never, ever assume again. We were so lucky that day.

[huski]

I think I must love my dogs too much.

The owners of these breeds that want to train them to have a reliable recall don't love their dogs less because they want them to be able to enjoy freedom off leash at the beach, park etc.

As I said above I don't understand why any owner would choose not to train a the most reliable recall they possible can, even if they never intend to let their dogs off leash. Recall is essential in my mind, if my dog wasn't coming back to me every time I called I would see that as a serious problem.

[hankdog]

I agree, I think recall should be the biggest priority in training. Obviously Jake is never off lead but I do a lot of long leash training out and about, just in case. I feel mortified when I think of how rubbish Hanks recall was and I used to take him to dog parks and let him off leash.

[Dame Aussie]

I think I must love my dogs too much.

The owners of these breeds that want to train them to have a reliable recall don't love their dogs less because they want them to be able to enjoy freedom off leash at the beach, park etc.

As I said above I don't understand why any owner would choose not to train a the most reliable recall they possible can, even if they never intend to let their dogs off leash. Recall is essential in my mind, if my dog wasn't coming back to me every time I called I would see that as a serious problem.

I don't think it should be assumed that people decide not to teach a recall because they don't spend much time off lead.

Both my dogs will come when recalled (one took more time to get reliable than the other), but I do this so that if they get away by accident I can get them back.

[Malakita]

I think I must love my dogs too much.

The owners of these breeds that want to train them to have a reliable recall don't love their dogs less because they want them to be able to enjoy freedom off leash at the beach, park etc.

As I said above I don't understand why any owner would choose not to train a the most reliable recall they possible can, even if they never intend to let their dogs off leash. Recall is essential in my mind, if my dog wasn't coming back to me every time I called I would see that as a serious problem.

If you are talking about being in an enclosed and off leash area with these breeds in particular, then training effective recall is the way to go.

But I am specifically saying about these breeds being off leash just anywhere, not necessarily in an enclosed .

So in my above context, off leash and not enclosed, I am not gambling with their lives.

[Yonjuro]

I think I must love my dogs too much.

The owners of these breeds that want to train them to have a reliable recall don't love their dogs less because they want them to be able to enjoy freedom off leash at the beach, park etc.

As I said above I don't understand why any owner would choose not to train a the most reliable recall they possible can, even if they never intend to let their dogs off leash. Recall is essential in my mind, if my dog wasn't coming back to me every time I called I would see that as a serious problem.

I have a great amount of respect for you and K9 Pro, but I cannot and will not accept the claim of 100% recall with a living breathing animal, especially a headstrong spitz like a husky. 100% is a big claim of which there is no way to qualify. I do train recall with my husky and our trainer, but it is a work in progress and I do believe it is very important as it gives a better chance of survival in a dangerous situation. But I train for safety and not so I can trust him off-lead.

The article is simply a heartfelt message to remind us that there will always be a certain amount of unpredictability with a thinking animal. The author say that "trust is a disease" and by this I believe she means that trust can grow or spread much like a disease and can have dire consequences.

I also don't believe that all dog breeds are the same a Malinois and a Husky are vastly different. If I wanted a dog that I could more comfortably train to be safer off-lead, I would not have desired a Husky. All dogs are different and I am sure you wouldn't recommend a Husky as a protection dog?

Again I will say I have a lot of respect for you huski but I guess we will have to differ in points of view with this subject :)

[huski]

I have a great amount of respect for you and K9 Pro, but I cannot and will not accept the claim of 100% recall with a living breathing animal, especially a headstrong spitz like a husky. 100% is a big claim of which there is no way to qualify. I do train recall with my husky and our trainer, but it is a work in progress and I do believe it is very important as it gives a better chance of survival in a dangerous situation. But I train for safety and not so I can trust him off-lead.

The article is simply a heartfelt message to remind us that there will always be a certain amount of unpredictability with a thinking animal. The author say that "trust is a disease" and by this I believe she means that trust can grow or spread much like a disease and can have dire consequences.

I also don't believe that all dog breeds are the same a Malinois and a Husky are vastly different. If I wanted a dog that I could more comfortably train to be safer off-lead, I would not have desired a Husky. All dogs are different and I am sure you wouldn't recommend a Husky as a protection dog?

Again I will say I have a lot of respect for you huski but I guess we will have to differ in points of view with this subject :)

I don't think all dogs are the same either, but I don't think that means that certain breeds can't be trained reliably.

I have a beagle and I have lost count the number of times people told me they were untrainable, couldn't be "trusted" off leash, she would never have a reliable recall etc.

I took that as a personal challenge because I didn't accept that my dog was untrainable and could never be reliable, I also enjoy letting my dogs run off leash at the park or beach etc or when I take them bush walking, and I hated having that constant fear of what would happen if the leash came off.

It is a personal choice if you want to train your dog to be reliable off leash, I would never tell an owner that their dog wasn't trainable for something as basic (and necessary IMO) as a reliable recall, I haven't yet met a dog that couldn't be trained to do it.

This conversation reminds me a lot of the other thing husky owners tell each other which is that their dogs a bred to pull and therefore can never be trained to walk on a loose leash - LLW and recall are basic skills all dogs can learn, IMO.

[Jumabaar]

What I take from this that the 'worst case scenario' does not change throughout the dogs entire life, regardless of how the dog changes. So treat risk with the same respect and be aware of it.

Its a good reminder to be mindful of your dog.

My property is double gated and some dogs are allowed to run out to the car- but only when I am actually focusing on them. If I can't give them 100% of my attention (or at least constantly have my eyes on them and the changes in the environment) then they are on lead or crated.

I am pretty risk averse but I let my dogs off lead in plenty of situations- it depends on the dog, what distractions are around and what the 'worst case scenario' is.

i.e. walking a dog near a major highway off lead- i don't care how reliable the dog is I just wouldn't do it because the risk is too high.

Vs running on an empty beach with a dog with a reasonable recall i.e. will hang around but is a bugger to actually catch!

I think I have the benefit of owning a 'runner' for the first 5 years of her life who managed to end up in some dangerous situations even when they started off quite low risk! All dogs since have had recalls drilled into them as the most amazing thing in their life, but never want to have that feeling again.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Jumabaar

[Yonjuro]

I have a great amount of respect for you and K9 Pro, but I cannot and will not accept the claim of 100% recall with a living breathing animal, especially a headstrong spitz like a husky. 100% is a big claim of which there is no way to qualify. I do train recall with my husky and our trainer, but it is a work in progress and I do believe it is very important as it gives a better chance of survival in a dangerous situation. But I train for safety and not so I can trust him off-lead.

The article is simply a heartfelt message to remind us that there will always be a certain amount of unpredictability with a thinking animal. The author say that "trust is a disease" and by this I believe she means that trust can grow or spread much like a disease and can have dire consequences.

I also don't believe that all dog breeds are the same a Malinois and a Husky are vastly different. If I wanted a dog that I could more comfortably train to be safer off-lead, I would not have desired a Husky. All dogs are different and I am sure you wouldn't recommend a Husky as a protection dog?

Again I will say I have a lot of respect for you huski but I guess we will have to differ in points of view with this subject :)

I don't think all dogs are the same either, but I don't think that means that certain breeds can't be trained reliably.

I have a beagle and I have lost count the number of times people told me they were untrainable, couldn't be "trusted" off leash, she would never have a reliable recall etc.

I took that as a personal challenge because I didn't accept that my dog was untrainable and could never be reliable, I also enjoy letting my dogs run off leash at the park or beach etc or when I take them bush walking, and I hated having that constant fear of what would happen if the leash came off.

It is a personal choice if you want to train your dog to be reliable off leash, I would never tell an owner that their dog wasn't trainable for something as basic (and necessary IMO) as a reliable recall, I haven't yet met a dog that couldn't be trained to do it.

This conversation reminds me a lot of the other thing husky owners tell each other which is that their dogs a bred to pull and therefore can never be trained to walk on a loose leash - LLW and recall are basic skills all dogs can learn, IMO.

Wow, I have never heard that one :laugh: I taught my boy to LLW from the beginning, he is great on collar and on harness and will respond to left and right every time. But I have also heard some Husky people say that they cannot be left in a house not in a crate and that they have very sensitive stomachs and won't play fetch- I call BS on those as well. I agree with you that no dog is untrainable, huskies are very very intelligent and can do most things pretty easily but in my limited experience they can have selected hearing :D and for this I don't agree in absolutes like 100% recall every time. I also think it is fair to say that you are very far removed from the average owner or even a well above average owner. You are a professional :)

[huski]

Wow, I have never heard that one :laugh: I taught my boy to LLW from the beginning, he is great on collar and on harness and will respond to left and right every time. But I have also heard some Husky people say that they cannot be left in a house not in a crate and that they have very sensitive stomachs and won't play fetch- I call BS on those as well. I agree with you that no dog is untrainable, huskies are very very intelligent and can do most things pretty easily but in my limited experience they can have selected hearing :D and for this I don't agree in absolutes like 100% recall every time. I also think it is fair to say that you are very far removed from the average owner or even a well above average owner. You are a professional :)

Ha, yes I used to hear it all the time (our family dog is a husky). Your boy sounds like a lovely dog

Obviously it is personal choice, and if you aren't comfortable with letting your dog off leash even if you do think their recall is very reliable, there is nothing wrong with that. It is the sentiment that you are wrong to 'trust' your dog or that pet owners who let their dogs off leash are irresponsible or naive or whatever, that annoys me.

We teach pet owners every week how to train their dogs to recall reliably, and they can do it, it is just a matter of knowing how and putting the work in (which is often much less and easier than expected).

Having owned a Husky and a Beagle before it is a personal pet hate of mine to be told they can't be trained or can't be reliable!

ETA: I think the message that complacency is a disease, would make more sense to me, because becoming complacent in your training and management of your dogs is certainly something that can lead to disaster.

Edited September 30, 2014 by huski

[BarbedWire]

I agree with Huski. All dogs need to be taught a 100% reliable recall and also distance control such as the drop at a distance. You make it 100% by proofing it, i.e. practising in situations where distractions are present. Train your dogs to come even when a cat is around or a duck or a horse or a kid on a skateboard. Also practise with your back to the dog or when you are sitting down or crouching, when he is running with other dogs, when there is food around or a ball or whatever has high value for him. I do trust one of my dogs to be offlead because I know she has an amazing recall. We have a wonderful bond.

[Yonjuro]

Wow, I have never heard that one :laugh: I taught my boy to LLW from the beginning, he is great on collar and on harness and will respond to left and right every time. But I have also heard some Husky people say that they cannot be left in a house not in a crate and that they have very sensitive stomachs and won't play fetch- I call BS on those as well. I agree with you that no dog is untrainable, huskies are very very intelligent and can do most things pretty easily but in my limited experience they can have selected hearing :D and for this I don't agree in absolutes like 100% recall every time. I also think it is fair to say that you are very far removed from the average owner or even a well above average owner. You are a professional :)

Ha, yes I used to hear it all the time (our family dog is a husky). Your boy sounds like a lovely dog

Obviously it is personal choice, and if you aren't comfortable with letting your dog off leash even if you do think their recall is very reliable, there is nothing wrong with that. It is the sentiment that you are wrong to 'trust' your dog or that pet owners who let their dogs off leash are irresponsible or naive or whatever, that annoys me.

We teach pet owners every week how to train their dogs to recall reliably, and they can do it, it is just a matter of knowing how and putting the work in (which is often much less and easier than expected).

Having owned a Husky and a Beagle before it is a personal pet hate of mine to be told they can't be trained or can't be reliable!

I face "Husky stigma" all the time and it is frustrating for sure, people often think because they look like a wolf they are wild beasts, other think it is cruel to keep a dog with their double coat and many certainly believe they are untrainable and this as you know is complete BS. My boy is only 11 months but we engaged a personal trainer straight after puppy school where he was a star pupil. We used to have weekly sessions, then fortnightly and now every 3 weeks. I would like to do more but funds are limited.

I have great suspicions that Ronin would make a great tracker, sometimes I think he is a blood hound when his nose is to the ground feverishly smelling and following some trail, but again time is limited so we will probably spend a lot of time on dry land mushing next year. We do play a game in my parents big backyard and another fenced in park where my daughter hides somewhere while we distract Ronin and then we say "Find Caitlin" and he is off, sniffing and finds her in a flash :D I would love to attend one of your seminars if you come to Perth though.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Yonjuro