Puppy Feeding, Switched To Raw Diet

[Danie11e]

We have had our first puppy, a Belgian Tervuren, for a little under 3 weeks now. She came with some Royal Canin food from the breeder and we already had the chicken necks she'd been having and we kept her on the same diet for a couple of days while she got adjusted to her new home. She wasn't particularly bothered about eating the biscuits but clearly loved the chicken necks, she did eat it all though. We intended to switch her to BlackHawk and so opened a sample pack to check she liked it and she loved it enough that we went out and bought another bag of RC so we could use the BH as training treats as no other treats were of interest to her. With "sit", "down" and "paw" mastered and "stay" and coming to a whistle mostly consistent we decided to start the switch from RC to BH for meals. Problem was all she did was filter out the BH and left the RC... We picked her bowl up after 20 minutes, thinking she'd eat more in her next meal but no, BH got eaten then the rest left again. As she didn't seem to be getting an upset stomach we then just gave her the full amount of BH and it all seemed good. But then a week later (2 meals after opening the 20kg bag, obviously) she started turning her nose up at BH too =(

After eating a total of 12g over 3 meals on Wednesday last week I decided to try her on a raw diet, as I had been reading quite a lot of information on them and was considering it as a possibility anyway, this just helped me decide sooner. So off to the butchers I went and came home armed with human grade beef mince, liver and chicken hearts (I already had mass chicken necks!). The most common information I had read was 80% of the total food was to be muscle meat, with 10% bone and 10% offal, and to feed approximately 2% of her expected adult weight. I went with 25kg as an adult weight as a starting point and split this across her 3 meals as I wanted her eating again. Success! She was even growling at the cat when he tried to steal it!

Then today I went off shopping with my mum and we predictably ended up in Pet Barn. I noticed the pre-packaged BARF food in the freezer and out of interest started to read the packaging. This then got me panicking as the total recommended amount of that is far less in weight than I have been giving her and has different amounts suggested for different weights, whereas 2% of her expected adult weight is consistent. I ended up buying a box thinking that I could follow that for the duration of the box and give myself time to research further as I do want to prepare her food myself eventually. I had intended to speak to a particular vet when we went for our vaccination on Friday last week, but we saw a different one as I hadn't thought to ask for her. I didn't speak to him about it as English isn't his first language and we don't understand each other as well as we could, but I did book in specifically with the other vet for the heartworm session on the 19th. I was happy to just monitor the situation until then as our puppy seems to be perfectly happy, full of energy and toileting normally but now I am just feeling overwhelmed with information and lacking in confidence to make a decision and stick with it.

Any reassurance or pointers towards good information resources would be greatly appreciated, or better yet tell me "do x and y for now then reassess the situation in z weeks"!

Thanks!

[luvsdogs]

After eating a total of 12g over 3 meals on Wednesday last week I decided to try her on a raw diet, as I had been reading quite a lot of information on them and was considering it as a possibility anyway, this just helped me decide sooner. So off to the butchers I went and came home armed with human grade beef mince, liver and chicken hearts (I already had mass chicken necks!). The most common information I had read was 80% of the total food was to be muscle meat, with 10% bone and 10% offal, and to feed approximately 2% of her expected adult weight. I went with 25kg as an adult weight as a starting point and split this across her 3 meals as I wanted her eating again. Success! She was even growling at the cat when he tried to steal it!

Then today I went off shopping with my mum and we predictably ended up in Pet Barn. I noticed the pre-packaged BARF food in the freezer and out of interest started to read the packaging. This then got me panicking as the total recommended amount of that is far less in weight than I have been giving her and has different amounts suggested for different weights, whereas 2% of her expected adult weight is consistent. I ended up buying a box thinking that I could follow that for the duration of the box and give myself time to research further as I do want to prepare her food myself eventually. I had intended to speak to a particular vet when we went for our vaccination on Friday last week, but we saw a different one as I hadn't thought to ask for her. I didn't speak to him about it as English isn't his first language and we don't understand each other as well as we could, but I did book in specifically with the other vet for the heartworm session on the 19th. I was happy to just monitor the situation until then as our puppy seems to be perfectly happy, full of energy and toileting normally but now I am just feeling overwhelmed with information and lacking in confidence to make a decision and stick with it.

Any reassurance or pointers towards good information resources would be greatly appreciated, or better yet tell me "do x and y for now then reassess the situation in z weeks"!

Thanks!

What do you mean by the bolded bit?

Some info on feeding raw.

http://rawfed.com/myths/feedraw.html

[persephone]

yep - be VERY careful with a raw diet in pups - get calcium/phosphorous ratio correct . grab a supply of coffee & snacks ..and have a read of this thread- the complete works of D O L raw feeding!!! It seems you are feeding a lot of meat, and not much bone/other

you only need a SMALL amount of liver - and some offal (heart is a muscle meat , like steak) Chicken carcasses are great ... chicken feet , kidneys, ..all sorts of things

here is an excerpt - on feeding pups. from THIS page

Bones have heaps of calcium, and quite a lot of phosphorus in them. Meat has hardly any calcium, and very little phosphorus. Feeding your dog as many bones as she or he needs to give an adequate calcium/phosphorus intake and ratio, then make up the rest with other ingredients such as meat, seems to work pretty well according to my calculations. My pup usually gets about 40% of the diet as RMB. That gives her about 2.6g of Ca per 1000kcal (NRC recommendation is 3g/1000kcal for puppies, so we're a little short, but adding more means I can't make my quota for zinc).

Liver is where you'll get most of your copper and vitamin A from. Too much vitamin A is harmful, so you can overdo it. Stick to about 5% of the diet as liver (yes, as recommended in prey model).

Diets made largely of chicken are likely to be deficient in zinc. If you feed chicken bones as your RMB, it can be a good plan try to make the rest of the diet out of red meat instead of chicken meat. Zinc is pretty important for the skin and also the immune system, so I'm not keen for my dog to be borderline deficient.

Feeding too much calcium isn't a large problem for older dogs, the only ill effect I have found is that it can bind to other minerals (such as zinc) and make them less available to the dog. Puppies have a more limited ability to excrete excess calcium, so you have to be careful not to overdo their calcium intake. And of course, the calcium phosphate ratio for pups should be kept between 1:1 and 2:1, preferably between 1.2:1 to 1.5:1.

Skin, especially chicken skin, is about the only place you'll get vitamin D from. Do dogs need vitamin D in the diet? No one knows yet, but I'd rather be safe than sorry, so I feed some skin.

The NRC say that dogs probably do a certain amount of manganese, and that's almost impossible to get from meat and bone alone, so either they're wrong, or dogs do need some veges or grains in some form in the diet. Jury for me is out at the moment, until I get my hands on the new NRC book at least. I feed some grains and veges just to be on the safe side. I'd probably avoid fruit in a dog that had cancer, though.

Green tripe is great!

But on the whole, picturing what a wild dog would eat and feeding that in approximately the right proportions seems to "compute" OK, which makes a lot of sense when you think about it! I'd personally be more careful with puppies, especially large breed puppies, and will encourage my clients to feed them carefully if they want to feed raw.

[persephone]

Oh ..and 'heartworm session" what is that ? is it the needle ? there is discussion about the various methods here CLICK HERE

oh - and welcom to D O L - where you will get all the information you asked for - and probaly a HEAP you didn't

[Danie11e]

Thanks for the links! We're heading out round to the parents' for dinner tonight and leaving in a few minutes so I don't have time to read all now, but I shall make a start when we get back (I have already read through the link you posted luvsdogs, that's where I got a lot of the information I was using on amounts to feed)! I have just a few questions to keep me going for her dinner tonight. Also, I just meant the injection =) I don't think I want the hassle of tablets while she's being such a fussy eater!

Since not all of the weight in the chicken necks is bone I have been giving her 2 chicken necks with each meal (so 6 per day). I didn't want to give her too many as I read that could cause constipation. How many would you suggest?

Liver was making up 5% of what I was giving her, as I'd read that heart could be offal or muscle meat I was using that for the other 5%. Should I change heart for kidney/something else?

Lastly, should I be using her current weight or her expected adult weight to decide how much food to give her? 10% of her current weight would be 640g per day while 2% of her expected adult weight would be around 500g. These numbers seem really quite high compared to the 1.5 patties the BARF box says I should feed her (around 340g). Should I just use the pre-prepared BARF food and guidelines while I get my head around all this?

[persephone]

Tablets/chews are a fantastic training opportunity for YOU. Learning how to give your dog tablets is very important - plus it can be a fun thing for a dog - with a treat/ play session :)

[Danie11e]

I'm not sure we could fit in too many more play sessions really. She currently gets tired before I do and takes herself off to her crate :laugh: But I'm certainly happy to give tablets a go. It can't be any worse than with Bandit, it takes both my partner and myself and at least one of us ends up bleeding with him. He's a great cat really though!

[luvsdogs]

I thought that was what you meant Danie11e about the heartworm injection. I do not recommend this as I've heard so many horror stories of what can go wrong. You are giving your dog a years worth of product in the one go & if she's allergic to it there's nothing you can do. With the monthly chews she would only be getting a much smaller amount & can try something else the next time. dancinbcs had this problem with her Border Collies as per persephone's link.

"Heartworm

Heartworm prevention should start before 6 months of age. Prevention can be done with monthly heartworm tablets such as Interceptor, Sentinel or Panoramis. Or with monthly spot-on products such as Advocate or Revolution. Or a heartworm injection given at 6 months of age, then yearly. If your dog is older than 6 months of age and not on any heartworm prevention, a blood test to check your dog hasn't caught heartworm should be performed before starting prevention." From Heritage Vets Coburg Vic.

[luvsdogs]

I'm not sure we could fit in too many more play sessions really. She currently gets tired before I do and takes herself off to her crate :laugh: But I'm certainly happy to give tablets a go. It can't be any worse than with Bandit, it takes both my partner and myself and at least one of us ends up bleeding with him. He's a great cat really though!

I can relate to cats, much easier with dogs if you know how. :)

[persephone]

the play sessions/treats are given as REWARDS for things accomplished :) Things like sitting at the door , giving you a toy , coming when called, allowing herself to be medicated , lying quietly .... :)