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[Tippi]

Hi all

I am hoping someone may be able to assist myself and my husband with our 4y/o Rhodesian Ridgeback x Mastiff. We adopted Tippi from the North Melbourne Lost Dogs Home in June 2013.

Tippi is a very loving dog towards myself, my husband and our cat - this is making our decision all the more hard of whether we surrender her (knowing what will most likely happen) or rehome her (in an ideal world). It is a very different story with unknown men and other dogs - she becomes aggressive and wants to dominate that situation. It takes a slow introduction before she is okay to be around a dog. Unknown women she doesn't seem to have a problem with though. Since adopting Tippi last year, we have taken her to two trainers. First one was a group session with other dogs which she handled reasonably well as long as a dog didn't get in her face. At her graduation from the training class, she allowed another little dog to lick her face so she is definitely not all bad. The most recent was much more expensive 1:1 training. The trainer handled her brilliantly and she seemed to learn so quickly and did amazing things. However, we are still really struggling to deal with her aggression towards unknown men and other dogs and the rudeness from people in the street when they see that behaviour.

I have contacted the LDH in North Melbourne who have been anything but helpful. They simply told me that if we surrender her, at a fee, they would simply put her down as they don't believe she is "rehoming material". Putting her to sleep is just a horrendous thought for us and something we are not willing to even contemplate as she is dearly loved. LDH has turned the cards on us and basically said that when they adopted Tippi out that she was fine so it's happened in the last year. Which is most certainly not the case. We have tried our hardest with Tippi and have spent a small fortune in the process.

Basically, what I'm trying to find out is if there is anything or anyone that can assist us with this. We don't want to put her down but we don't feel we can keep her any longer with the behaviour. The anxiety of having a dog with behavioural problems is becoming too much.

I'd really love to hear from anyone who knows of an organisation where they can take dogs with aggression problems and possibly rehabilitate them or even a professional dog trainer looking for another dog.

Thanks

[dididog]

I'm sorry you're going through this it's really crappy of LDH but to be honest kind of expected... they don't like dealing with inconveniences (hence their high kill rate). Did you see a trainer or a behaviourist? Did they give you follow up information on how to manage the behaviours? Just obedience training would not really be sufficient for your problem and you'd need a reputable behaviourist to assess the situation. Can you clarify the extent of aggressive behaviour?

My dog is currently fear reactive with strangers, mainly in close proximity or making threatening movements(or what she perceives to be threatening)and I getcha, it is a massive drainer and I can imagine with the dog aggression added in that you would feel overwhelmed. However if you're willing to give it one last try I can personally recommend Judi from proK9, she came to see us recently and my dog's behaviour makes so much more sense and I am better able to deal with it. While it still requires lots of management and consideration, it is a lot less stressful when you know how to handle it.

I really don't know how you will go surrendering a dog with aggressive behaviours but depending on the extent of the behaviours I'm sure somebody else will have a better idea of who you should talk to. Good luck and chin up, you are trying to do the right thing by your dog, despite LDH letting you down.

I am no expert btw just trying to find out more info so somebody with a better idea can help you out :)

eta. I too think depending on your answers to the further questions that you should consider trying again as I do think it will not only be hard to rehome her but also a unethical as you are passing problems along.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Terri S.

[Dame Aussie]

May I ask why you stopped seeing the behavourist if it was going so well? Maybe she just needs ongoing training change her behaviours?

When you say aggressive, what behaviours does she display?

I'm not sure what you want LDH to do? Do you want them to work on her behaviours and rehome her? Or provide training so you can keep her?

[VizslaMomma]

Welcome to the forum.

Are you not happy to consider having more lessons with the last trainer?

If not, there are other trainers that might work better for the dynamics of your family & Tippi.

Could that be a consideration as well?

Like Terri, if you could give a bit more info.

I would suggest considering a Vet visit too. That will help with decisions.

You are sensible to be trying to find the best solution. Hang in there as i know more will reply with help.

:)

[persephone]

'welcome'

So sorry you are having to cope with this .

What did your 1:1 trainer say ? what was the result of their assessment , and what advice did they give for managing Tippi?

several Dogz members are professionals who work with problem dogs , and who live/work in & around melbourne.

members : click on the names to go to their websites.

Cosmolo

Erny

Nekhbet

rehoming an aggressive dog is not the responsible thing to do .Sending a dog away ..hmmm... that doesn't really help YOU to manage the behaviour .

When you say "dominate" ..what do you mean? What is her body language ..and what does she do - lunge/bark/growl ?Tail up or down? hackles up or down? Does she rear up on the leash /get behind you /try to run ..

?

[Aleksandra 157]

My heart goes out to you,Tippy.Two months ago we had to have our 18mth collie PTS. It was a heartbreaking decision and I am still traumatized as is my husband.Your dog sounds a little like Jesse,although he began having episodes where he attacked everything except us.We made the decision as it was found he had genetic brain damage,and was unaware of his attacks.We had him from 8 weeks so nothing

Bad ever happened to him.

I know the hell we went through trying to contain him.,nobody could come to the house ,even in the car he would lunge at the windows,snarling.It even effected our marriage.

Your Tippi does not seem as bad as Jesse,so I think you will have some options with a good trainer.

I'm empathizing with what you are going through ,it is unbelievable stress.,However I really feel in some cases e.g. Jesse,you have to love them enough to do the right thing for them.I do so hope things improve for you.,and you get a good outcome.Kind thoughts coming your way.I should add Jesse had a very peaceful passing,head on my knee,cuddling him...all over in 4secs.,but for us...ongoing.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Lulusuki

[Tippi]

Thanks for the very quick responses.

I'll try to respond to everyone's questions in one go...

The extent of her aggressive behaviour - She has drawn blood on another dog once over food when we were visiting relatives. Usually, her first response when coming into contact with another dog is to freeze. Then if it comes up to her, she will either growl or puff her chest up (while wagging her tail in the air - I've been told that just because a dog is wagging its tail doesn't mean it's friendly/happy). When we first got her, we took her to an off-leash dog park where she initially interacted quite well with other dogs, however as they all started to get more and more boisterous she seemed to become more and more aggressive and dominating without realising they were all still just playing. We have since never allowed her off the lead when in public. In regards to men, she will typically growl at any unknown man who approaches her. Yet again though, she is always on the lead even when we have guests over so as to avoid any problems. However, three months ago, we were not home and a tradesperson (who is known to us) visited our property to finish some works, he said for the first 30 or so minutes she just sat on her bed however, as he was getting ready to leave, she nipped him on the ankle from behind. It was similar to a graze but did drawn blood. We were extremely lucky that we know this tradesperson and no further problems arose.

This is when we realised how severe her behaviour could in fact be which lead us to contacting a dog behavioural therapist. His opinion on Tippi is that she isn't a "bad" dog but rather she has years of behavioural problems (anxiety, he referred to her as a "half glass full" type) that could possibly be helped with a strong willed person and continued monitoring. He is a wonderful trainer but we have spent quite a sum of money on having her assessed and lessons, plus the travel time to and from these lessons, it literally took up an entire Saturday each week. It's just not manageable to continue with those lessons. Due to his schedule, our trainer was unable to visit our home as an alternative.

We have spoken to a vet about this behaviour. Their response was prozac (from memory) however, the vet did not believe she was an ideal candidate as she wasn't showing excessive signs of anxiety. The alternative the vet told us was to put her to sleep. I really just cannot go down this path - not sure I'd ever forgive myself for putting down a perfectly healthy dog.

Perhaps if anyone has any trainers close to the North/West part of Melbourne that are reasonably affordable - we may be willing to go down this path again.

[hankdog]

That's a big dog to manage, I can imagine it would be very stressful. Unfortunately with so many healthy dogs with normal behaviour looking to be rehomed I think her chances of finding a suitable home are quite slim.

She does sound like she has potential for behaviour change but this would require ongoing work with a professional. It's a financial, time and emotional investment.

The way I view my situation with my probably never rehabilitated dog is that I would be more unhappy with myself for putting him to sleep than I would be relieved by ending my stress of managing him. The decision is by how I feel and whether I can responsibly manage him, it's irrespective of his rights or guilt or anything. You need to make the right decision for you and if you keep going with her you have to review that decision regularly.

My own view on your situation would be to not try pass the problem on. Again my opinion only, everyone deals with these difficult decisions in the way they can cope with.

Eta. My boy is on Prozac, it is his lifesaver and probably the reason he is still here.

Edited September 8, 2014 by hankdog

[Pretty Miss Emma]

It sounds like you've seen trainers and what you need is a bahaviourist, probably veterinary behaviourist.

Maybe get in contact with these guys as there are vets there who specialise in behaviour problems and also trainers. Before putting a dog to sleep I'd be getting an expert opinion from them. Most vets don't really have much of a clue on behaviour issues and will resort to some sort of medication but not necessarily understand the training also required in conjunction with this. These sorts of problems require a multi-faceted approach and a lot of committment and consistency. From what you've described you can see the triggers and there are some management strategies you could implement if you feel you are up to it, but getting a better picture from someone who specialises in this area is the way to go. There are many ways all of this could be interpreted by people on the internet but this is a problem that is much bigger than an internet diagnosis.

As has been said, if there is an aggression problem you don't really have the option of rehoming it's just not the responsible thing to do.

[Tippi]

Sir Snook le Faux - She is an extremely smart dog and the things that she is taught she picked up within that lesson of first being shown. We have definitely seen improvements and have a better understanding of how to manage her. When she is at home, she follows commands down to a tee however, as soon as we step outside her security blanket (steps outside our gates) it seems to go out the window completely and not even food treats seem to get her attention.

Lulusuki - I'm really sorry for your loss. It's been an extremely emotional roller coaster over the past few months. Having grown up surrounded by many types of animals and never imagining my life without them, this experience as really scared me from having any further pets. If you don't mind me asking, when you put Jesse to sleep, did he seem at any point to struggle during those last moments? It really upsets me the thought of going down this path, but every vet or shelter I've spoken to seems to think this is our only option.

[temperamentfirst]

Tippi, I've had to have old dogs PTS, and every time it has seemed like they just let go. My last one was sitting in the car, and as the injection took effect she just collapsed down. I have seen one in terrible pain, and the change from suffering to peace and knew I had done the right thing.

[juice]

Reading between the lines it sounds like you have had enough ,but don't want to pts, and are hopeing someone will take her.

Not going to happen.

You have nothing to lose by getting an opinion from one of the trainers Pers listed, then you can decide wether its something you can deal with or not.

[persephone]

to put your mind at ease - the majority of dogs I have watched being euthanised just react as they normally would to the act of being held for a needle - same as they would if having bloods etc taken .. teh rest is quick and relaxing .there are tranquiliser pills which can be given if dogs are stressed at the vets normally - it means that the memories are not worrying ones :) .

Hope that hekps in your decision- making.

You know , a dog which is a resource guarder/fear aggressive biter , or who is very uncertain/protective , does not have a life that is all happy ... rehoming a dog like this can be extremely unsettling for problem dogs - and can lead to an exacerbation of unwanted behaviours.

Rehoming is just not an option with a dog who has bitten .

What techniques did your trainer suggest to manage Tippi's behaviour?

if you can describe the ongoing management routine - that will help us ...

[JulesP]

You are very lucky that your dog only nipped the tradie. A tradie near me got airlifted to hospital after being mauled by dogs similar to yours after the owners left him working in the house.

My dogs are super friendly but I wouldn't leave them with strangers in their territory.

The dog was probably dumped in the first place because it has issues. I doubt they are fixable and it will just be a matter of managing the problems.

[Diana R]

Have you spoken with Nicole from Planet K9 (the trainer who runs from the front of Lost Dogs)? It sounds like they are convenient to you and both Nicole and Nola (a trainer that works with Nicole) can assess the dog and give you a plan. They are also both happy to refer to a VB (they work with Deb Calnon and Co as the first point of call).

You should have done a post adoptive session with someone from Planet K9 after you got Tippi, so use the same contact details if you still have them.

[Aleksandra 157]

Tipi, I know exactly where you are coming from.I too have had multiple dogs and other animals since childhood,they are my absolute passion.I

have never had one PTS until they were in pain one from cancer at 11years, I say this because I don't want anybody to think I took it lightly.

In retrospect Jesse was not right when I got him.Living where I do I had to buy him sight unseen..as I had done with several dogs before.He came from excellent breeders..well known in N Z. But he was damaged...we went through all the trainers,behaviorists etc, so tried very hard.At about 6 months he started attacking a 5 foot outside light set in concrete ,finally knocking it right over. I tell you this to give you some

background to our decision .With us he was perfect,loving,affectionate etc.which made the decision worse.There were many other incidents ,one where he bit a stranger,after pulling me over on a deserted beach.He saw someone in the distance..took off.All in all it was hell.

To get to your question,a fortnight earlier he had broken an ankle.,earlier he broke a canine tooth attacking the light.They could not operate as scared of breaking his jaw.

All in all I know what you're going through...A fortnight before the "event" neither of us would have dreamt of it.I then gave thought to options.... he could not be rehomed,I have never done that..never would.We could not go on,the toll on us was terrible...Police were involved.,and very supportive .There was only one option.

As a retired pharmacist I know how quick this works.No pain,no struggle, just us on the couch cuddling him.

It was really strange,he seemed to look relieved as we went in to the vet,..he really loved the clinic and was happy to see the vet.

He was not for this world,he was unhappy and is now in a better,peaceful place,I believe.I am heartbroken but will always believe I did the kindest thing for him.

I apoligize to everybody for rambling a bit ,but I think other people may be interested,if they are ever faced with these issues.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do....Aleksandra.

[Staffyluv]

I agree with others, there is no rehoming the dog - it is simply the wrong thing to do.

If you can't keep her, then there really is only one option for her.

It sounds to me like she is very stressed (as are you, no doubt).

Tippi being good at home and not out, isn't an unusual thing - my boy is much more likely to not listen, won't take treats, outside of home.

The only thing I found that would get his attention is his tennis ball, so that is what I use - he values it above all else.

Training outside of their normal environment, takes a lot of time and patience - I have been working with Zig for nearly 3 years and I think we are probably about half way to where I want him.

We train almost every day at a couple of locations - the local leash free park and the local town park. We also do a minute or two here at home a couple of times a day.

Zig is reactive but not aggressive - he is a lover, not a fighter. However his over the top enthusiasm makes dominant dogs at the park, want to put him in his place. I have seen this a few times (why I now go at less busy times and with dogs we know).

I feel for anyone with an aggressive dog - it can be very hard.

I wish you loads of luck and if you decide to keep her, it may be a hard road ahead but that is a decision only you can make.

[persephone]

I have to say that I'm somewhat bothered by people telling the OP how easy and kind euthanasia is when what she has described sounds like the dog is not a lost cause and has potential for rehabilitation.

because she asked ?

I agree that a decent assessment needs to be done - which is why I suggested people .

[Aleksandra 157]

I was simply replying to a question Tipi asked,not advocating it for her case.People can only do what is right for their dog after all other options have been tried.Perse I remember you and many others on here were so supportive when I was struggling...thank you.SSLF,Tipi asked me about PTS I did not suggest it....Also I want to reaffirm I did not say it was easy...probably one of the hardest things I've ever done.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Lulusuki

[persephone]

I was simply replying to a question Tipi asked,not advocating it for her case.People can only do what is right for their dog after all other options have been tried.Perse I remember you and many others on here were so supportive when I was struggling...thank you.SSLF,Tipi asked me about PTS I did not suggest it....Also I want to reaffirm I did not say it was easy...probably one of the hardest things I've ever done.

yes - it is an awful time (for the humans) . Your jesse was so loved ...but love couldn't help .