Breeder Red Flags?

[PurpleBug]

Hi all

My husband and I are hoping we might be able to benefit from your experience. Sorry if this is long, I want to make sure everything is down.

We are currently looking for a second Boston Terrier to join our cuddle bug and very playful wee boy :) He is pure bred and was shown as a puppy. We had been hoping to adopt another adolescent but they are few and far between so we have been considering a puppy.

We've been in touch with a breeder who has a young litter and we have put down a deposit but we now have some concerns. Our main priority is to get a healthy pup but with hindsight we fear we have been slightly naive.

We were first in touch with this breeder around 5 months ago and there were one or two emails back and forward. We got back in touch about 4 weeks ago when we decided to get another dog and found out that they have a litter. Their correspondence was a bit slow but my husband talked to them on the phone and it wasn't that long between emails. They asked for a deposit in advance to guarantee a pup from this litter which we didn't feel was unreasonable. They said we could not but they couldn't guarantee we would get one if we waited.

The breeder asked us to drop them an email confirming our preferences etc for when they match pups with homes. We did this and reiterated in the email that we wanted to meet the parents/mother before we took the puppy home and that we would pay the rest of the balance at the same time. We had asked on the phone to visit them before we paid the deposit but she said that they didn't like people coming over before the pups first vaccinations which we thought was sensible.

We thought we were being careful as we were going with a dogsonline listed breeder, they said the parents were clear of juvenile cataracts (which we believe to be the major thing that needs testing in Australian Bostons) and the breeder also has a dogs nsw registration. I did a search on her name and the kennel name as well to see if anything came up and nothing did.

It has now been two weeks since we paid the deposit and sent the last email and we have had no communication from them. We sent them a text to confirm the deposit had been paid and to ask them to confirm when it arrived. They texted back to say they would but they haven't. The lack of communication has made us a bit twitchy and I've been doing more reading here since then. We've also been thinking again about what has been said and I'm now getting myself more concerned.

1) My husband thinks she mentioned on the phone that she has two litters at the moment which is why she's so busy. We didn't think much of it, but having read some of the breeder sections here we now think that is a bit unusual. My husband also reread the emails that he sent 5 months ago and she mentioned having been busy raising a litter then. Three litters in 6 months seems like a lot to us.

2) We haven't been given any information on the bloodlines that are being bred and we haven't seen any certificates yet to confirm that the parents are indeed free of cataracts. To be fair, while we know to ask about the cataracts we didn't think to ask for proof in advance of picking up the puppy. Getting our current boy was so easy and he came with all his certificates when we went to meet him that it wasn't something we thought we needed to do in advance. My husband is also not sure if its been explicitly confirmed that the pups will have papers.

3) I'm thinking that if their communication is so bad now, what is it likely to be if we want support in 6 months time?

4) I've read a couple of things suggesting that ideally a breeder should also show as that way you know they are breeding for strong pups with few faults - would you agree? This breeder doesn't appear to show that we can tell.

If the communication had been good we probably wouldn't have been wondering all of these things. However, the radio silence following the payment of deposit and the email has left us spooked and caused us to second guess ourselves.

We would be very interested to hear your thoughts. Should we expect more communication? Is there anything above that would concern you or are we being unfair to a lady who probably has her hands full looking after young puppies? We don't want to abandon our deposit if we're being unfair but equally we feel that relative to owning a dog for its lifetime the money is not the issue so if we have to walk away we will.

Thanks

P.S. I hope I have posted in the correct part of the forum. Sorry if I haven't.

[Mystiqview]

Some breeders are not the best when it comes to communication via email etc. It will not automatically mean they are bad or good. Just that they may not live on email/web or access it every day.

How old are said puppies?

I have a litter here now, work full time and am also heavily involved in a social club who is currently organising the annual gathering for all clubs. Yet I can find time to answer emails from people asking about my pups. Sometimes it is just a quick one back to say I have received their email and will answer their questions in more depth when I get home or in the next couple of days. But that is just me.

I personally do not ask for a deposit until my pups are at least two weeks old. I advise any who enquire NEVER to pay a deposit on a pup that is not born yet. Personally I think it is rude to ask money for something that has not even eventuated. Even once they are born, so much can happen between birth and two weeks. And if the bitch needed a C-section, the breeder should have prepared for that in advance and budgeted for it just in case.

If a person is local, I allow viewing of the pups after two weeks. I do a minor scrub down procedure before people are allowed to see the pups. (shoes off at door, scrub down face and arms and then use alcohol soap on hands before pups are handled). I also do not allow too many into the whelping room at once.

Some breeders still very much cloister their pups until after the vaccination and some even up to when you pick up the pup at 8 weeks. This is the old "classical" view and some still stick to this method. Also in some breeds, breeders have had people in to view the pups, then to find a few days later their pups are stolen from their property, so can be a bit hesitant to allow strangers in.

Even if the breeder sends you a copy of the certification, there is no guarantee that the certificate is right. Not wanting to cast dispersions to the breeder, but I have know cases where documents have been manipulated. Even if you get an electronic copy, I would hope the breeder offers you to show you the originals.

Depending on the size of the litters and the largeness of the kennel - 3 litters in 6 months may not be excessive. Bostons may only have one or two pups per litter. (Not like a border collie where they can anything up to 15). I know some breeders who have three litters or month and constantly advertise on the DOL puppy pages their next litter - even before the current one are sold. Unfortunately to advertise on the DOL breed pages, a breeder only needs to have an ANKC prefix and breed ANKC registered dogs. Ethics play no further part in eligibility.

Depending on the age of the pups, wait another week then ring her.

[Dogsfevr]

Only you can decide whether you feel happy with getting a puppy from these breeders.

The biggest issue seems to be as soon as deposit is mentioned people don't think with there head they often just rush to pay through fear of missing out THEN ask questions afterwards .

We don't take any deposits ,to messy to deal with & if things go wrong (pup not surviving wrong sex or pups not being the right fit for the home everyone it becomes tricky)

If we are happy with the people who have contacted us then we commit to our word .

We don't allow people to see our pups till after 6 weeks not just because of Vaccs but by that age they are interesting & ready to interact with strangers prior to that there not fun nor what people expect when they come out .

I think the biggest issue here is you have asked very few questions that where important before hand & now your asking those questions .

[PurpleBug]

Thank you both for your responses. Its really appreciated and your inputs on what is normal have been very helpful for us.

Showdog, yes, we are aware that we have made mistakes. We thought we were doing the right thing and asking the right questions but now realise that we haven't got the information that we should have. I think we thought there were registered breeders, back yard breeders and puppy mills and we assumed that going through a registered breeder plus making sure we did meet the mother and ask about hereditary diseases would go a long way towards making sure we were getting a well bred dog. We didn't realise how easy it is to advertise on dogsonline. We're in a situation now where the breeder might be fine but we simply don't know and I can tell you that we're kicking ourselves and feeling rather foolish! Your responses plus reading some of the other threads here have given us a lot of extra information so I think we are armed with better questions now and a better idea of what is usual from breeders. I'm very very glad we decided to do a bit more investigation before we went any further, even if it is later than ideal...

Thank you

[dancinbcs]

Contact the breeder of your current dog and ask them if the breeder with the puppies is legit. The dog world is very small, especially with a rare breed like Bostons. Every good breeder knows every other good breeder in the country even in much more prolific breeds.

[Stitch]

If you have their phone number have you tried phoning them, especially of an evening?

[cowanbree]

I don't really think you have enough information to know if they are reputable breeders.

I don't personally take deposits but many of my breeder friends do and I can understand why when they breed a litter thinking they are all sold and when they are on the ground everyone has changed their minds or got one somewhere else.

As for their communication, they may not be e-mail people. If you have questions pick up the phone and ring them. There is nothing wrong with the questions you have but I find most pet people aren't that interested, they are more concerned about getting the right sex and colour so while I am happy to answer any and all questions I wait for them to be asked. I find I am very seldom asked about health testing let alone anything else and my last litter was the first time in 25yrs of breeding I have been asked to see the pedigree. They get one in their puppy pack anyhow so it wasn't an issue but I did wonder why they wanted it

[Christina]

We had asked on the phone to visit them before we paid the deposit but she said that they didn't like people coming over before the pups first vaccinations which we thought was sensible.

I did a search on her name and the kennel name as well to see if anything came up and nothing did.

It has now been two weeks since we paid the deposit and sent the last email and we have had no communication from them. We sent them a text to confirm the deposit had been paid and to ask them to confirm when it arrived. They texted back to say they would but they haven't. The lack of communication has made us a bit twitchy and I've been doing more reading here since then.

Three litters in 6 months seems like a lot to us.

2) We haven't been given any information on the bloodlines that are being bred and we haven't seen any certificates yet to confirm that the parents are indeed free of cataracts. To be fair, while we know to ask about the cataracts we didn't think to ask for proof in advance of picking up the puppy. My husband is also not sure if its been explicitly confirmed that the pups will have papers.

4) I've read a couple of things suggesting that ideally a breeder should also show as that way you know they are breeding for strong pups with few faults - would you agree? This breeder doesn't appear to show that we can tell.

Re above parts. Its not unusual to be refused a visit. Some do allow & some don't.

Phone the kennel club in their state & ask are they currently registered. Easy.

Pick up the phone & call them. Not much communication but only they know why.

3 litters is not a huge amount. They may not have any more for a year or many more.

Certificates & papers should have been discussed before you handed money over but you need to ask about this asap.

People may not show for a variety of reasons it does not mean their dogs are not up to standard or that they are ignorant of the standard. Dog not enjoying it, person not enjoying it, age, distance, health, shyness or even not coping with the people & politics involved can be some reasons. Dogs may be really good.

It was silly to part with money so eagerly however its done now & may all work out fine.

Good luck. Hope to see photos of a wonderful puppy here soon.

[Steve]

Nothing here tells me you should be worried - give them a ring anything could have happened to prevent you getting notice of the deposit including them sending it and you not receiving it.

[sas]

Ive sent you a message of a Boston Breeder you can speak to.

[PurpleBug]

Thank you everyone! They did ask us to contact them via email as they can't always answer the phone or spend time talking. We don't want to bombard them with emails and phone calls if there isn't anything too abnormal. Given the comments here, we don't feel that there is anything necessarily out of the ordinary but while we're trying not to be overbearing we are going to try and get hold of them via phone/text and nudge them for some more info.

Sas, I've sent you a message back - thanks :)

[yellowgirl]

You may have already seen it but there's a 5 month old Boston boy advertised in the puppies for sale section - looking for a NSW home. xx