Serious Agression Issues German Shepherd Pup

[afterbanns]

Hello to all, My husband and I have a German Shepherd male pup who is 5 and a half months old. We are having some rather major issues with aggression at the moment and am seeking feedback if someone would be so kind. I feel quite silly as I have realised my errors which may be responsible for some of the problem, but at the same time there are some issues I am at a loss to explain. My apologies for the length but I wish to give the ENTIRE picture so an informed response can be made. I am feeling quite desperate, at the very least because my whole life seems to be revolving around the puppy at the moment.

To start off, we got him from a reputable breeder who we had been talking to some 12 months before we brought him home at about 8 weeks or so. My husband works from home and I am around the house most of the time. He is never left alone apart from a few hours on the weekend. We keep him inside for that time. He waits by the front door until we return from what we can see. He was housetrained very quickly and sleeps quietly all night without movement. He is not really a barker, though will bark if there is movement around the fenceline. He has even learned not to bark too early in the morning but at a reasonable hour does let out a few loud barks. He eats well, twice a day. He is big for his age. From the first few days we had him, he was sitting for me and lying low and would basically come when he was called.

The main problem is that he is quite agressive towards me. He does 'mouth' my husband but I can see that he is playing, rightly or wrongly. With me, I feel there is no play and he is really trying to make a point. It usually happens when I try to tell him to 'stop' doing something. He will snap at me, I will again try to firmly tell him to 'stop' and that is when he starts to bark, growl and to my shame, he manages to corner me/round me up. I am also sorry to say that I have become quite frightened and I have to call for my hubbie who has to come running to rescue me. As soon as my husband appears, the behaviour stops. If I am alone and cannot be 'assisted' I just manage to get hold of him and put him outside of wherever we are. I have tried turning my back and ignoring him, but with little success, though I will try working harder on that.

I have taken to walking him on lead and letting him run off leash at the beach for about two or so hours each day. He absolutley loves this and he always keeps me in his sights when off leash and comes when called. He knows that the car will not be reversed out of the garage until he is sitting down quietly and that he is to stay that way for the trip. He is very affectionate when we get in the car to go and get in the car to come home with lots of kisses. Whenever I give him treats, he ALWAYS behaves and basically does what is asked of him. The problem is that I dont have treats on me 24/7 so when he plays up they are not at hand. THe other problem is that in my attempts to use up his enegery with all the walking, outside play etc., it is taking up huge slabs of time every day and yet still does not use up all his energy and stop the aggression. I understood that a German Shepherd would need lots of exercise, but it would seem that I could spend 7 or 8 hours a day with this little fellow and it would still not be enough to wear him out.

Another dangerous and confounding problem is that he is fascinated with cars and when they are going past while I am walking him he trys to run along with them or AT them. I have tried a few different strategies with little success, so now just soldier on, keeping him on a short leash and ignoring his carry on and the car, hoping that eventually he will stop being fascinated by them.

Tonight was especially unpleasant as I tried to pat him and he snapped at my hand. I was able to walk away from him and ignore him for a while. Later, when I managed to get him back inside as it was time to come in, he was quite cranky and came in and piddled on the floor! While I tried to clean it up, he started pulling at the cloth and of course when I tried to 'stop' him, he started his agressive behaviour again. Again, I had to be 'rescued'

I am going to undertake the following strategy:

1. Take him to the vet tomorrow to have him checked over in case it is a physical health issue

2. Ramp up the work with treats (though I am not sure how much more I can do)

3. Approach a trainer to see if they can assist

4. I unfortunately allowed him to choose when he would no longer sleep in his crate at night and he decided that he was going to sleep beside me on the floor beside the bed (long story associated with some reno work we had done in the ensuite) We thought he was being protective/cute but realised that it was a big mistake and a bit of this agression could be associated with his trying to dominate further. I am hoping to get him to sleep back in the crate and not in the bedroom or surrounds.

5. We also unfortunately gave him run of the house except for a few rooms which are always closed off to him. This has resulted in him doing some silly things like trying to sit on the couch etc. I am hoping to further restrict the areas he has access to so we can have the house back again ie put cushions back on chairs etc.

6. Enlist the help of a dog walker to walk him a day or two a week so I can get some other things done around the house.

Again, I am so sorry for the long winded post, but really would appreciate any feedback/assistance anyone could provide.

Thank you

[Amax-1]

Firstly is the dog a working line GSD? Secondly, I would take that dog in a heat beat for a working dog by his description he sounds like the makings of a great working dog :)

What he is doing is trying to be 2nd in the pack behind your husband......this is common behaviour in a dominant male especially dribbling pee on the floor marking and getting aggressive if you wipe it up and scold him......I have one here who gets growly if you ask him if he's peed.....he did the same thing in adolescence and had a go at my wife twice in my absence This behaviour is a genetic by-product of the dog's character not something you have done wrong.....they just take a particular type of training routine to extinguish the behaviour and for them to learn the order of the pack......having said that, it's needs to be dealt with NOW as it gets worse as the dog matures until he bites you and you show him fear and then he runs the show!!

The best solution is to hire a trainer experienced in working dog training......not commercial behaviourists, they are useless for the most part dealing with such a behaviour in this type of working dog. The dog will have to be rehabilitated with aversives to correct the behaviour for the best result and he's the right age to use such a routine, so the experience of the trainer is paramount to extinguish the behaviour quickly before it escalates.

If you are in QLD, I would recommend Jamie Davies, Brett Ward, Robyn Thomas would be able to easily rectify the behaviour problem or put you in contact with someone experienced who can help resolve it.

The dog is being a cocky jerk flexing some new found muscle...as I said very common behaviour from a young dominant male testing the pack dynamics, but is not pleasant pet behaviour to be exposed to or something easily remedied on your own if you don't know how to stop it. Dogs like that tend to be handler aggressive as they mature if the behaviour is left to manifest but on the bright side, once the dog knows his place in the pack, he will be fine as they adjust and accept their position quickly with the right training approach at that age :)

6. Enlist the help of a dog walker to walk him a day or two a week so I can get some other things done around the house.

I wouldn't recommend that.....a stranger handling the dog who he has no respect for could be the one he bites if they man handle him or yank him around on leash.

You are best off using toys on a mouthy dog not treats as the primary reward....balls are good if he likes chasing balls.....you can redirect his interest in cars to balls...the working dog trainers who train in drive can show you how to accommodate this and change his focus.

GSD's don't need massive amounts of exercise......a 2km walk and half an hour play in the yard a day is plenty.....unless you run one alongside a bicycle for 20km's you won't wear them out....a high drive one is like the Energiser Bunny....their energy is endless, don't even bother trying to get them tired, you will drop of exhaustion before them :D

Edited August 24, 2014 by Amax-1

[Kavik]

Sounds like you have a handful :)

A trainer should be able to help you with his behaviour.

Instead of trying to wear him out physically, training will help to wear him out mentally and also training will help with your relationship. Training doesn't just mean obedience training, trick training is also great and also lots of fun :)

Since he seems to like to use his mouth, maybe you could direct this to more appropriate items like toys, and getting him to retrieve objects.

[afterbanns]

Thank you for your replies and the wealth of information you have shared from obvious experience. I am really grateful! The stuff about marking with piddle really made sense and the comment that your dog would get cranky just for being ASKED if he had piddled really rang true for me. My boy always gets a 'look' on his face - like a sullen teenage human - when he is asked to stop doing something EXCEPT when he is out and about, then he is very good.

To update, last night I kept him out of the bedroom and left him with the new larger and improved Kong that he has graduated to. He wanted to come in this morning and scratched at the door but I did not let him in. Instead, I opened the door and went out when I was ready - calmly and without fear :) I did not speak to him and pretended to be preoccupied with something else. He then jumped up and I calmly 'removed' him without looking at him and went on my way. I was aware that he tried a very half-hearted snap at my feet but I just ignored it and he seemed to loose interest. I then had to clean up his latest work of art (aka piddle and poo in the house) while he went outside. All done calmly and without comment. He was then given his breakfast while I had a bit of a chat with him. I know these are small steps compared to the strategies that need to be taken but I was happy with myself that I had at least stayed calm and did not display or feel apprehension.

re his coming from working dog line, I don't think so, but he has come from a line of successful show dogs both here and in Germany? We met his parents and a couple of other 'relatives' and they are all majestic dogs to be in awe of. Yes, I do think he would love a 'day job' but not prepared to give up on him just yet :) It was very nice to hear echoed what I believe: that he is really a special and clever boy.

Thank you for the names of the trainers you recommend. I will look them up and see how I go. And will abandon idea of a dog walker - makes sense what you suggest there. He loves balls, of course and also hide and seek type games so will do that. I am not feeling confident about using the balls for distraction from cars. It usually takes all my strength and concentration to keep him with me when they go past (or overhead as they did yesterday on a walk the involved walking under an overhead bridge) But a professional will be able to help me with that.

Thank you for the tips about exercise, I was beating myself up for not being able to walk him and play with him for ten hours a day, seems it wouldn't help anyway!

Honestly, I didn't sleep a wink last night worrying about all of this, so getting your response this morning has really made me feel better! Thank you once again!

g

[Lasareina]

How scary for you don't worry, you have come to the right place for advice - I love reading all the wealth of information that the people here are willing to share to help others.

[Aidan3]

A good trainer who is experienced with working breeds should be able to help immensely. Sounds like his intimidating behaviour is working for him, and you need some guidance with using treats and other rewards effectively so that you don't need them on you all the time. Hopefully you'll get your confidence back with him shortly.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

hi Afterbanns

I am not experienced with GSD much, my fave breed is cattle dog and they can have some of the same problems - they will push the envelope with what is allowed or not, they will train you, and the more you exercise them, the fitter they get, so the more you need to exercise them.

What I know about dog training is largely based on Susan Garrett and Bob Bailey's methods - you can't force an albatross or dolphin in the open to do what you want, and yelling "stop" at it has no meaning without a trained behaviour to go with it. It all has to be reward based training and lots and lots of it.

Punishment using aversives tends to lead to escalation - ie you have to punish perfectly timed and quite hard for the dog to deterred from repeating the behaviour (successful punishment) otherwise you just desensitize the dog to the aversive "stop"?. Personally I don't want to go there with a dog that mirrors what I do - if I'm rough with my dog - she's rough with me.

So you're doing stuff that is rewarding this dog for the behaviour you don't want. Pay attention to what happens just before the inappropriate behaviour starts. Work to prevent the precursors. Eg Air sniffing in the kitchen - leads to counter surfing. Prevention - dog required to sit on mat outside the kitchen.

For this dog - he doesn't seem to care about doing what you want, he cares about getting you to do what he wants (feed him treats etc).

With my dog for certain behaviours I'm trying to stop or replace with better ones - I can't use treats for rewards - because she back chains the unwanted behaviour with the good behaviour eg she acts naughty then good to get the treat... Much frustration for me but it's clearly working for her if I don't pay attention to what I'm doing.

For your dog - I'd be looking at relationship building behaviours and some conditioned behaviours - start with your husband around just in case and or your professional trainer of choice. Video your training sessions - a phone video camera will do.

Do lots and lots of trick training and shaping. Don't always use treats - sometimes use toys eg a ball in a sock or a tug toy with a bungee cord on it (so your arm stays in its socket)

Start with the basics.

Eg collar grab - you want to be able to grab his collar or his scruff and him see that as a good fun thing and safe for you. Not as a punishment for him (fun ends and dog gets put away).

Crate games - can use a crate or a mat - this is something you want to condition too, train the dog to go in crate on command and love being in there ie the extra large kong - in the crate only. Make it exciting and fun. My dog loves being in her crate... it always means something good for her.

Then you can use the crate command to get the dog into a safe place for you. Beware of back chaining - eg jumping on you, go in crate, get reward. Put loads of money in the bank for being in the crate, but only reward with praise (not food or toys) if the step prior to going in the crate was jumping on you.

If he back chains on praise - you're 3/4 the way there because he cares about what you say to him now.

Another really basic conditioned response you want is "drop" or "down" ie dog lie down now. Which you can use to get him off you.

And you also want the geddit (tug) and give (spit it out) commands working really well.

"Premack" everything. Don't give him any attention, food, don't open the door for him, don't put the lead on - until he's done something for you. As he gets faster with responses - ask for harder tasks before you do what he wants. So what he wants only comes when he does what you want first. Everything you premack becomes worth more to him and he will work harder and with more joy for it. I don't understand why this works - but it does. Note - this also applies to humans / teenagers.

Engage his brain - this wears a young dog out more than a long walk... pick some trick and shape it. Maybe start with one trick a week but if he's smart you can do more than this or have more complicated tricks. You can use the word "yes" instead of a clicker.

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/02/idea-list-for-shaping/

Try some trick heelwork (backwards, sideways, otherways, both sides, circle work... don't need any special equipment for this). Try getting him to find things with his nose... Put several toys out and get him to fetch them by name...

I agree with the others about getting a trainer in to help but make sure you get one that helps you build a rewarding relationship with your dog not a fear based one.

This is Steve Courtney's advice on how to choose a trainer.

http://k9pro.com.au/services/how-to-choose-a-dog-trainer/

These are trainers I've seen recommended in here for QLD area.

Jane Harper

http://www.dogsontrack.com.au/

Craig and Tracey Murray

http://www.dogschool.com.au/

Something else to consider - it may help you to see a woman trainer working - then you might see better that getting control back is something you can do even if the dog seems stronger than you.

Good luck with this dog. Life must be pretty scary at the moment for you. And do update us with any progress...

Edited August 25, 2014 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Jed]

Giving you proper help is beyond an internet forum.

You are in Qld. I suggest you contact Val Bonney who lives at the Gap. She has done obedience for years with GSD, she travels overseas to judge, and to train trainers, and she has trained trainers here. She is "older" and extremely experienced - particularly with GSD.

I have never spoken to her without getting some good advice or suggestions.

And - she is not too expensive. She will know what to do to turn this norty doggie into a model canine citizen. If she cannot help herself, she will know who can.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jed

[Amax-1]

Sounds like you have a handful :)

A trainer should be able to help you with his behaviour.

Instead of trying to wear him out physically, training will help to wear him out mentally and also training will help with your relationship. Training doesn't just mean obedience training, trick training is also great and also lots of fun :)

Since he seems to like to use his mouth, maybe you could direct this to more appropriate items like toys, and getting him to retrieve objects.

You put that well Kavik :) Mental drain in training is far more tiring to the dog than physical exertion. Some advanced training can make the world of difference in the general behaviour of a driven dog.

[BC Crazy]

Excuse my ignorance Amax1 but what do you mean exactly by advanced training?

Following this thread with interest not that I own a GS but I do own a very drivey BC.

[Nekhbet]

Def get onto someone like Craig Murray ASAP, or someone with working dog experience, more specifically the guarding breeds.

You dont need to ramp up the work with the treats you actually need to cut it back and make it quality over quantity coupled with a high level of focus. If you read nothing else look at www.leerburg.com at least it's written by working shepherd/Malinois people

[Amax-1]

Excuse my ignorance Amax1 but what do you mean exactly by advanced training?

Following this thread with interest not that I own a GS but I do own a very drivey BC.

Something greater than rudimentary obedience training........training in drive that type of thing to enhance handler focus I was thinking of :)

Punishment using aversives tends to lead to escalation - ie you have to punish perfectly timed and quite hard for the dog to deterred from repeating the behaviour (successful punishment) otherwise you just desensitize the dog to the aversive "stop"?. Personally I don't want to go there with a dog that mirrors what I do - if I'm rough with my dog - she's rough with me.

Just to put it out there, the above is a common announcement from training groups who don't engage in aversive methods of training but in 99% of cases it's not true, in fact it's rare even with the hardest and highest calibre working dog for aversives to escalate aggression over extinguishing a behaviour. A reason they use harnesses instead of collars in protection training to increase aggression and not extinguish it by collar correction when the dog is lunging into a bite. I have however experienced this twice in 29 years of training working dogs once with a GSD and once with a Malinois who were handler aggressive adults brought about by misuse of an Ecollar. There is more chance of escalating aggression in a 5 month old pup by rewarding the wrong behaviour by the mis-timing of treat rewards than it is with a couple of hard corrections and setting boundaries for the pup to learn what it can and cannot do.

The point is, yes there is a miniscule chance that an aversive can escalate aggression in some dogs, but the tendency for most dogs when experiencing an aversive is to shut down and extinguish the behaviour. Only 1% of dogs subject to an aversive to extinguish aggression will escalate, it's not the norm that motivational trainers declare is a likely consequence. Having said, the application of an aversive needs to be administered in a timely manner by someone experienced at the process in accordance with the dog's demeanour.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Amax-1

[BC Crazy]

Many thanks Amax-1. Might go google that to get some ideas. This is the type of thing I need to learn about.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

a couple of hard corrections and setting boundaries for the pup to learn what it can and cannot do.

That would be my point - the hard corrections may work where as what I routinely see at dog club and elsewhere - allowing a dog to lean into a slip chain choke collar - just desensitizes the dog to the collar...

I have just learned about "Opponent Process Theory" where the brain (of human or dog) when perceiving an aversive - has a hit of adrenaline "A Process" (eek what's that?), and then a calming "B Process" which counters the A process so the animal can think again.

If you want to desensitize to spiders or fireworks - you expose a critter to just enough A process that the B process can counter it... and then the B process has a bit of a lag - so it is still in effect for a while after the A process has stopped so you get this kind of calming - which is how people become addicted to pain..

It's also how mind altering drugs - that used to work - lose their power over time.

So your aversive has to be strong enough but not so strong that the dog either freaks out completely and shuts down and not so weak that it just learns to tolerate it. And a strong aversive applied for no reason that the dog can figure out - will lead to a crazy anxious dog (eg rubbing its nose in pee, hours after the event).

And yes there can be problems with back chaining bad behaviour (aggression) if you're using treats to reward that (inadvertently). I've done that. Oops. But at least my dog is still keen to work with me.

[Kavik]

Does he do this mainly when he is excited? If so, then maybe calming down your interactions would help.

With Kaos I have to gee him up to get him into his optimal arousal for training, but with Nitro I have to do things much more calmly or he gets overaroused (and will bark/occasionally mouth). It has taken me a while to work out the best way to do this since I am so used to working with Kaos :laugh:

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Kavik - are we talking about my dog's aggression problems.

Yes it happens when she goes TAR about something (too aroused to respond). Usually the lawnmower man but lately - people walking home from the bus stop past my house. Today she had a go at the lady who lives at the end of the street, same lady that pesters council to ban dogs from everywhere because people don't pick up the dog turds, and possibly because she's a bit scared of them. So my evil hound - waggy tail, hackles up, saying rude things at her as she went past - not a good look.

Threshold distance as she approached was about 50m or so, but as she went past - evil hound calmed down considerably - like she was asking me if she did good - I've got to be pleased with that right? Erm no. I body blocked the dog, but she was pretty focussed and not paying any attention to me at 10m distant.

Trouble is at this point, if I grab her collar - I get "opposition reflex" excitement. Which I don't get for any of the things I want her to be excited about. Sigh.

I have trouble believing it's fear aggression, she doesn't seem at all afraid. I think it's more some sort of territorial thing - because it's worse at my house.

[Amax-1]

a couple of hard corrections and setting boundaries for the pup to learn what it can and cannot do.

That would be my point - the hard corrections may work where as what I routinely see at dog club and elsewhere - allowing a dog to lean into a slip chain choke collar - just desensitizes the dog to the collar...

I have just learned about "Opponent Process Theory" where the brain (of human or dog) when perceiving an aversive - has a hit of adrenaline "A Process" (eek what's that?), and then a calming "B Process" which counters the A process so the animal can think again.

If you want to desensitize to spiders or fireworks - you expose a critter to just enough A process that the B process can counter it... and then the B process has a bit of a lag - so it is still in effect for a while after the A process has stopped so you get this kind of calming - which is how people become addicted to pain..

It's also how mind altering drugs - that used to work - lose their power over time.

So your aversive has to be strong enough but not so strong that the dog either freaks out completely and shuts down and not so weak that it just learns to tolerate it. And a strong aversive applied for no reason that the dog can figure out - will lead to a crazy anxious dog (eg rubbing its nose in pee, hours after the event).

And yes there can be problems with back chaining bad behaviour (aggression) if you're using treats to reward that (inadvertently). I've done that. Oops. But at least my dog is still keen to work with me.

Allowing dogs to lean into correction collars is what you see most I agree and generally on choke chains they will coughing and spluttering, but the tools are being used incorrectly as the concept of a correction collar is to provide an on/off switch and the timing of the correction is done before the dog reaches the end of the leash quickly and sharply as a behaviour interrupter. You are absolutely correct that dogs getting used to leaning into correction collars desensitises them to the corrective effect :)

The skill in the trainers ability to read a dog's character will determine the level of aversive for a given unwanted behaviour......the reason I shudder at the thought of just anyone readily purchasing a choke chain and letting loose on correcting their dog Corrective training is a skill and is often the best remedy for extinguishing an unwanted behaviour which in IMHO a "good" trainer will possess these skills to best cater for a range of unwanted behaviours in various types of characters.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

yeah the choke collar completely turned my dog off going for walks. Took me two years of flat collar work to get her to look forward to the walk to the park. I wish I had known what I know now when she was a puppy. Techniques that worked on previous dogs - just shut her down completely.

And yet she'd lean into the collar to try to say hello to other dogs at club. Sigh. the choke collar was worse than useless.

We're still working on getting treats right too but the fallout doesn't seem as severe. Some things I have got beautiful understanding and other things I still get the doggy equivalent to the finger.

[Amax-1]

Does he do this mainly when he is excited? If so, then maybe calming down your interactions would help.

With Kaos I have to gee him up to get him into his optimal arousal for training, but with Nitro I have to do things much more calmly or he gets overaroused (and will bark/occasionally mouth). It has taken me a while to work out the best way to do this since I am so used to working with Kaos :laugh:

I have a pair of GSD's like that......one has to be geed up to work, the other geed up will flip his lid and end up wrapped around your neck......many a time I have copped a cold nose in the back of my head with paws around my shoulders :laugh: It took me about 2 years to fix that.......he was an absolute nutcase in a drive blowout. I somehow taught him a "relax" command that over time seemed to work. As testing as it is from a handler perspective, it's amazing how some dogs can accelerate into full drive so quickly from a relaxed state?

[Amax-1]

yeah the choke collar completely turned my dog off going for walks. Took me two years of flat collar work to get her to look forward to the walk to the park. I wish I had known what I know now when she was a puppy. Techniques that worked on previous dogs - just shut her down completely.

And yet she'd lean into the collar to try to say hello to other dogs at club. Sigh. the choke collar was worse than useless.

We're still working on getting treats right too but the fallout doesn't seem as severe. Some things I have got beautiful understanding and other things I still get the doggy equivalent to the finger.

Yeah......I don't use correction collars at all anymore when raising dogs from pups as drive techniques in training advancements well surpassed the old yank and crank regimes. Correction collars tend to work best with adult dogs ingrained in poor leash behaviours who lack drive to properly support motivational training techniques.