rusty&biscuit Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hi everyone, I'm sorry but yet again I need some insight and advice from everyone! As you may or may not know, Cherry, my 13 and a half year old rescue, is my first dog. Anyway she's not having a good year this year, from a fractured front paw, then an emergency vet trip after a bad dog attack, and now we're just back from the vet where I've been told that the vet is almost certain that Cherry has ruptured her cruciate ligament. So options are, 6 months strict rest, or a very large surgery. Now apart from the obvious costs, both of these are not very great options. I was told that the added pressure on her left back leg trying to compensate for the right for 6 months, that there is a high chance of the right one rupturing as well due to her age. And look, she's not getting any younger and 6 months of not being able to be out, running, swimming, and just living life to the full at this age seems down-right sad. Because for all we know they could be her lat 6 months. Then this brings me to my worries toward the surgery route. Cherry has about 4 or 5 lumps that we opted not to get removed because we were worried about putting her under anaesthetic at her older age (you may remember me doing a post a while ago about the lump on her nose, and she since got one right on her 'girl part' which I dare say wouldn't be an very feasable job for the vet), and now I'm in the same situation. Is she too old? Agh my brain hurts. I don't know if I could ever forgive myself if something happened in surgery...and then again I would feel awful if her health went downhill while on her 'rest period' and her last months were spent trapped, and she misses out on so much. I'm in a kind of "damned if you do-damned if you don't" situation here. I would really appreciate ANY input/sharing of experiences you guys have...like I say she's my first dog, so I really have no idea what I should be expecting of a dog of her age. And a photo because she's beautiful Cherry by All4aBiscuit, on Flickr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 R & B I had a bitch do the same thing at the same sort of age and opted for strict rest. She was a working bred girl and lived for "action" but I brought her into the house and she spent the rest of her life mooching about and enjoying life in front of the fire. Yes, she did not get to go hunting again, but at that age it was unlikely it would have been more than a potter anyway and I think deep down she preferred her humans! Just my story and I was never sorry that I made that choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty&biscuit Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 JRG thank you very much for your input I really appreciate it. What sort of enrichment did she get on a day-to-day basis to substitute her walks, if you don't mind me asking? :) I just want to consider every aspect of this big desicion, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 She was an outside dog all her life. Until that point she lived in a yard with other dogs, (her brother, daughters, nieces, grandchildren etc) and took her exercise either out working/training or in the exercise paddock with the others. Bringing her in completely changed her world and she found plenty to interest and occupy her in an active household. She knew nothing of treats from the kitchen or lounging by the fire and she adored human contact (patting, petting, grooming etc). Most working bred dogs just love to be with their owners/handlers and to have this all the time brought a spark to her life when she could no longer go out working with "the boss". If you don't know any working bred dogs you maybe do not realise how much they live for their work. It is their whole life. So bringing her into the house really turned life on it's head for her, and, in the "excitment " of discovering a new world, I think she thought of her crook leg as a bit of an inconvenience rather than something that hindered her. I'm sorry, I have not explained that very well. The working gundog psyche is difficult to explsin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty&biscuit Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 No worries JRG, I'm pretty sure I get where you're coming from :) Thank you so much for taking the time to explain to me. I'm thinking along the lines of food toys and bones to keep her occupied and if she gets bored, but other than that she has only been permanently inside after the dog attack which was only a few months ago, and she's loving it! She's a calm girl most of the time, so I don't think that the rest should be toooo much of a problem. For anyone interested, take a look at this website: http://tiggerpoz.com/ I've spent the last 40 minutes reading, it's very interesting. Definately swaying me to go the non-surgical route at this point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) What a gorgeous girl she is :) I've been through two cruciate ligament surgeries with my German Shorthaired Pointer and the post surgery recovery is quite a long wait in itself (6 or so weeks + continued therapy). There weren't many options for us (as he was so young) and I certainly don't regret it. He's a whole new dog after those surgeries.. but it was gruelling on all of us. I would encourage you to talk to a specialist about the surgery and get their input on your particular case. We were much more comfortable with our decision once we felt we had realistic expectations and as much of an understanding of the surgery and recovery as we could. Edited August 14, 2014 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Oh gosh that is a really tough decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty&biscuit Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 Thanks hannahrjb :) I certainly think that that was a great choice for such a young dog. And for my boys I can't help but wonder if it would be an easier choice had it been one of them, as they're younger. But I just as Cherry was acting like a puppy again, now that she's separate from Rusty, she's been loving life living inside, then going for daily outings where she swims and plays. And I'm just worried that surgery will be too much for her too I will have a look into specialists in Cairns. I don't specifically know of any but I'll have a look, and if anyone knows of any up this way please let me know :) Thanks Kavik, it really is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty&biscuit Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) gremlins Edited August 14, 2014 by rusty&biscuit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskered Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Thanks hannahrjb :) I certainly think that that was a great choice for such a young dog. And for my boys I can't help but wonder if it would be an easier choice had it been one of them, as they're younger. But I just as Cherry was acting like a puppy again, now that she's separate from Rusty, she's been loving life living inside, then going for daily outings where she swims and plays. And I'm just worried that surgery will be too much for her too I will have a look into specialists in Cairns. I don't specifically know of any but I'll have a look, and if anyone knows of any up this way please let me know :) Thanks Kavik, it really is! Sorry to hear this R&B. You sound like you're having tough time of it with your lot recently. There are no orthopaedic specialists up here in Cairns. There are a few specialists who come up periodically for clinics but I'm not sure if orthopods are amongst those, and if so when the next visit is scheduled. Talking to the JCU vet in Townsville might be helpful too - not sure what they offer in terms of specialist ortho surgery but if you don't have any luck in Cairns at least its only 4 hours away compared to Brisbane. Can't hurt to get a few opinions. :) Which vet do you use in Cairns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gila Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 In regard to the surgery, if she's a healthy dog I don't necessarily think she's "too old". My dog has had about 4 GAs this year for a surgery and various diagnostic tests. He bounced back brilliantly each time. He turns 13 next month. Just do your research and choose the option that feels right for you and your girl :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 How much does cherry weigh? I've had good results with rest alone in older, less active dogs under 15kg. Once you get over 15kg or a very active dog I'd say surgery is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) My old girl did her cruciate the day after she turned 13. She had surgery - a traditional repair done at one of the specialist centres here. In part we opted for the specialist because the price difference wasn't hugely more and they had more up to date monitoring equipment and figured she would be in good hands if anything went wrong. She went to my parents to recover - the recovery was pretty hassle free and at about 4 months post surgery she came back to me because she was to much dog. Fast forward nearly 12 months - she is now coming up for 14 - helped plot 4km worth of tracks last weekend over a few hours and is back having significant walks (4km at a time). Her repair is stable, she has regained all the lost muscle and the chiro is super impressed with her condition. The chiro did comment that usually the surgery is pretty successful with older dogs. Ness was borderline the 15kg but a BC (15.4kg at the time she had surgery). She was otherwise in good health and still super active (achieved her tracking title 2 months before she did the cruciate) and still having long walks. As far as surgeries go I wouldn't opt for any of the bone cutting procedures - a traditional/lateral suture repair is fine. Here are a few videos - Ness at 14 weeks post-op - Ness over the March longweekend - Edited August 14, 2014 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 The other thing to consider with conservative management is the dog is still needing to be strictly confined (and sometimes more so) then if you go down the surgical path. Is the knee stable? Is there meniscus damage? If the knee is unstable rest alone won't help and if there is damage to the meniscus then its painful for them. I guess when my old girl did hers I was primed because of having had a youngster with lots of orthopedic issues. My thoughts over resting an oldie that heavily was you could rest them for 6 months and still not be any better off least with surgery you go through the rest period and the dog will improve. As for the surgery - my old girl bounced back much quicker then my youngster did from her patella surgery and she was only 4. Happy to answer any questions you might have. Ness was the family dog so it took a few weeks of no improvement for my parents to come around to the idea that surgery was required whereas i knew it needed to. Anesthetics are much safer then they use to be and we had full blood work done before going any further along with considering the operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty&biscuit Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 Thank you all so much :) Whiskered, I've been using Marlin Coast since i've lived in Cairns, and was told there was only one vet there who could perform the surgery. Thanks gila, good to know that another oldie bounced back so well from surgery :) aussielover she is 13kg :) Thank you so much ness for sharing your experience! I am in the same boat as you with Cherry being the family dog. My parents are quite averse to the surgery and are leaning more towards waiting 8 weeks to see if she improves, in following the suggestion from the website I posted above. It's great to hear how well she did after surgery, and I will be showing my parents this post too to give them more food for thought, as well as continuing my research. Thank you for sharing the information on what surgery would be best to opt for for an older girl too, in case we do decide to go down that route. Again, I really appreciate everyone's input!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskered Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Sent you a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty&biscuit Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 OK, so now I'm very worried. As she is the family dog it's not up to me, but if it were my choice I'd be taking Cherry to get a second opinion. As I have previously mentioned, she does have 2 lumps that she's had for a while that were too difficult to remove, especially the one on her girl part which, given its position, is practically impossible. Due to that, we never had any more lumps taken off (she has had in the past, though). So, she's had one on her back leg for a while now (the one she's limping on). As we can see some of her spine but not her ribs, the vet suspects that she already has cancer. I go over her everyday checking for ticks, making sure he lumps haven't gotten any worse. Anyway, I was going over her yesterday and the lump on her back leg has suddenly become quite inflamed, grown in size, and she's loosing hair on that leg. And THREE more lumps have very suddenly popped up, and are loosing hair around them too. I have a feeling that it may not be a cruciate ligament at all (we had no X-Ray proof, vet was just "almost certain" and wouldn't put her under for X-Rays unless she was getting surgery). What would I even do then, I am so worried that my worst case scenario will be true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 DEf a second opinion , and some decisions, I think . She is an old girl , and her body now seems to be letting itself slow down . Can you talk the family into getting someone else to see her ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty&biscuit Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 Thanks pers I will try my best talking them into it...I always have money set aside for my boy just in case, so if they give me permission to take her to a different vet but won't pay, I'll just use that money. If it is related to the lumps, I don't know what I'll do. At least I'll be able to take her out though for trips to the beach so she can enjoy the time she has left (she is on strict rest at the moment, just in case it's cruciate ligament). Hope for the best but be prepared for the worst I 'spose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Oh no So sorry to hear that, r&b. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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