Behaviour At The Vet/with Strangers

[dididog]

You mentioned 3 older people caused Didi to react.

Did she ever have hassles with them before you adopted her?

We got her when she was 9 weeks so I highly doubt it and as a pup she was quite fond of several elderly people who asked to pat her. In fact for the first 3 weeks we had Didi my elderly grandparents were staying with us and she loved them and had only good experiences with them, even my grandpa who has dementia so slightly erratic she was very fond of.

I have thought perhaps her issue with elderly people is they tend to stare kind of vacantly and move very slowly/awkwardly. I have also noticed she will pretty much always ignore women who ask to pat her but falls in love with most men who do.

[VizslaMomma]

You mentioned 3 older people caused Didi to react.

Did she ever have hassles with them before you adopted her?

We got her when she was 9 weeks so I highly doubt it and as a pup she was quite fond of several elderly people who asked to pat her. In fact for the first 3 weeks we had Didi my elderly grandparents were staying with us and she loved them and had only good experiences with them, even my grandpa who has dementia so slightly erratic she was very fond of.

I have thought perhaps her issue with elderly people is they tend to stare kind of vacantly and move very slowly/awkwardly. I have also noticed she will pretty much always ignore women who ask to pat her but falls in love with most men who do.

Sorry, I think I confused myself.

[Christina]

I wouldn't be overly worried. Vets & the building & smells often make the mildest animals behave strangely. Sometimes the most friendly dogs who are unshakeable go to jelly or behave badly the minute they walk in the door.

Given that your dog was not handled in a sensible way & that you did ask for a minute & was ignored I would guess that your dog picked up on your discomfort. Add that to the general smell of all the other animals that were or had been in there & she would have been feeling a bit off. You are probably more worried as she is such a big dog. They can go through phases they are not machines. I wouldn't class her as a problem/out of control dog at present or anticipate greatly that this will happen based on your post.

[Dame Aussie]

I wouldn't be overly worried. Vets & the building & smells often make the mildest animals behave strangely. Sometimes the most friendly dogs who are unshakeable go to jelly or behave badly the minute they walk in the door.

Given that your dog was not handled in a sensible way & that you did ask for a minute & was ignored I would guess that your dog picked up on your discomfort. Add that to the general smell of all the other animals that were or had been in there & she would have been feeling a bit off. You are probably more worried as she is such a big dog. They can go through phases they are not machines. I wouldn't class her as a problem/out of control dog at present or anticipate greatly that this will happen based on your post.

I agree with Christina. Have a consult for sure but try not to stress too much and don't beat yourself up in the mean time :). The receptionist sounds pretty stupid and so is the man for patting an unknown dog.

[Rebanne]

didn't she have a go at your brother's friend a while back?

[dididog]

didn't she have a go at your brother's friend a while back?

No? She is very good with people in our house and we have people over a lot and she is always happy to seem them, much more affectionate.

I think maybe you are getting confused with a time when I opened my bedroom door and my brother's friend's dally was randomly on the other side of it and Didi barked at it aggressively. I took them both out the front and they said hello and they were fine after that and played together. This happened months ago and is the only time Didi has even really barked at another dog, let alone aggressively. If I woke up from my nap and opened my door and a complete random stranger was in my hallway I'd probably get angry too.

[persephone]

I can't understand why this is happening,

Because Didi was scared..and she reacted automatically.

Why do Doctors/hairdressers use all sorts of distractions when little kids have to have something done for the first time ? So they don't suddenly back away & scream ....

[dididog]

I can't understand why this is happening,

Because Didi was scared..and she reacted automatically.

Why do Doctors/hairdressers use all sorts of distractions when little kids have to have something done for the first time ? So they don't suddenly back away & scream ....

Oh, I definitely understand why she reacted how she did and am not treating it as if she'd reacted like that to a stranger on the street, I'm really pissed the receptionist ignored me and my dog's obvious signals to wait and I hope she does not view the vet negatively from now.

I meant more that I can't understand why else other than maybe a fear period why her behaviour around strangers has become more wary, to the point where she's felt it necessary to growl at them in some instances.

[Airedaler]

Just a thought.

Do you think Didi may have been protecting you?

In the first instance someone holding a strange object in their hand moved toward her/you and in the second you had her between you and a solid object and someone came toward you with a stick and raised (albeit slightly) raised hand.

[Nekhbet]

Its not up to the dog to protect and it's not up to the dog to react. The point of socialisaion and raising a dog is to teach it HOW to react when confronted with stress. It's why I teach all dogs and especially puppies focus straight in the eyes - they find it potentially rewarding and a reason to behave extra well even with strangers. No dog that passes through my school has issues being leaned over, patted roughly etc and it's something severely lacking in many socialisation programs - the fact that human hands and faces will be VERY close to your dog some time in it's life and it has to learn to deal with it. If the perceived rewarding outcome is bigger then the stressor the dog wont react. I'll have to take a video of the older dogs, we throw things around them, threaten them, shout at them etc without force and the lack of reaction too is part of the reward experience.

[Salukifan]

I think some very good points have been made in this thread:

1. Didi's behaviour is not your fault Terri S. You've clearly put a lot of work into socialising her but sometimes dogs display behaviours that are undesireable.

2. You recognise this and are prepared to do something about it.

3. Aggression towards people in a pet dog is not acceptable. It doesn't matter in the wider scheme of things why she behaves this way. A frightened dog bites just as hard as a territorially aggressive one. No amount of analysing the "why" of her behaviour will change that. Excuses are not helpful for her or for you.

4. Experienced professional help is important for Didi AND for you. You will feel more confident in understanding situations where Didi is likely to react and will be equipped with better tools to manage her behaviour.

It's a bit worrying that other pups seem to be having issues. That suggests a genetic component to the behaviour. However, that is still in the "why" basket and its the "how to deal with this" basket that now needs filling.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Lasareina]

I'm not experienced enough to offer any advice Terri just wanted to say that I think you are doing a great job so far, and not to be too hard on yourself. I sometimes read/watch amazing stuff that more experienced owners are doing with their dogs in terms of training, agility etc etc and I can't imagine ever being that competent :laugh: You are obviously putting in the effort, are willing to learn and have the best intentions for Didi so you should be giving yourself a pat on the back, not feeling guilty. I hope everything works out ok :)

[raineth]

Yeah don't feel guilty Terri :)

Definitely seek help from a professional, but also on the other hand, don't let this experience have you completely on edge either :)

Remember that she has displayed loads of appropriate behaviour with people before.

With Digby, who was quite uninterested in strangers, and a little on the anxious side when we first got him this is how we dealt with strangers who asked to pat him.

They would ask me if they could pat, and I would say, we'll lets see of Digby wants to have a pat.

I would release Digby so it was his choice to go to the person or not, and it was his choice to stay with them or come back to my side.

This very much increased his confidence as the interaction became his choice.

Now having said that, he had never growled or barked at a person before either... So not something to go back to the scary vet nurse to test out.

If you are familiar with creating positive associations it could also be an idea to get something like a table tennis racquet and get her used to having that object go around her body, just with you doing it though.

[dididog]

Thanks for the reassurance guys :) Didi means everything to me so I don't like it when something's wrong.

You know this has made me think, Didi has always been kind of timid and flighty. I would compare her to a horse in that she, especially as a pup spooked easily and her first instinct was to run away from what ever it was or dance at the end of the lead. I wasn't really sure what to do when she got scared, all I knew was I wasn't supposed to reward it by praise or patting her and would generally just ignore it, move a bit away until she was not actively scared and give her a minute, then praise her for being calm. I thought that this flightiness had gone away but I've realised it's probably more that she's really used to the things that scare her so doesn't react to it but her weak nerves are still there. Like how even though I have walked home late at night plenty of times and even though nothing bad has come of it, it doesn't mean that I'm not very wary in that situation and wouldn't feel scared while doing it.

I went for a walk just now and I tried to remain neutral and I think I was but Didi looked a lot more stressed than usual and I had to stop to give her a minute when we got surrounded by people waiting to cross the road as she was trying to back away from them. I am lucky that I have an oval down the road that is practically always deserted and I usually am able to walk her at non peak times so I will still be able to get her out and about till I know more.

While I can understand the sentiments that she was just feeling out of sorts/very scared at the vet, I do feel this is serious, I just needed some affirmation from experienced people so that I knew I wasn't over reacting. I trust Didi and usually feel comfortable in public with her but having her react like that and taking into consideration past behaviours, I can't ignore it and I don't feel confident she wouldn't do it again if pushed. Even though there's reasoning behind her behaviour I don't believe they make her response OK. I will try and talk to my parents tonight, although they probably won't see the big deal. My mum likes the fact that Didi could be a deterrent/is perceptive of risks and I always have to tell her it is our job to protect Didi, not her job to protect us so I'm not sure what they're thoughts on the matter will be but in a months time I can do it without their help anyway.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I never forget the first time I saw one of those gadgets they use for taking a temperature these days.

I had broken my nose and had to wait around in emergency for about 8 hours to get xrays and then another two or three to see a doctor. I finally got put on a bed that had no spot light and half the other stuff around it was broken... so a doctor could look at me and explain my nose was broken (I'd head butt a hockey ball and now stuff was clicking in there)...

And this strange guy - not wearing any kind of uniform or label - comes at me with a pointy device - not unlike a microchip scanner and reaches for my (very sore) head. RUDE I WAS!!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING - DON'T COME NEAR ME...

Not very surprised by your dog's reaction really... but now that it's happened, she's learned something you might not want repeated, hence suggesting training is a good idea.

[persephone]

You know this has made me think, Didi has always been kind of timid and flighty. I would compare her to a horse in that she, especially as a pup spooked easily and her first instinct was to run away from what ever it was or dance at the end of the lead.

That's good to remember - now your chosen professional has good background material :)

[hankdog]

From the discussions I've had about Jakes issues until you can get to a behaviorist my advice would be to read lots and take a quiet , calm approach. Dogs have a flight or fight response. You would rather she chose flight and so try to avoid cutting off that option. I had to spend effort getting into jakes head that flight is an option. You don't want a scardy dog though so I guess it's flight to a safe distance and then turn and look at the scary thing, work out what it is and then have the freedom to approach and get some pleasant thing, treats or a pat or just leave calmly.

You could just start with a walk past the vet surgery, lots of fun and move on. Maybe next time a venture into the car park, do a bit of training and leave. When she's comfortable with that maybe the nurse could come outside and wave at you, next day a pat from a stranger. When just going to the car park is no issue approach the door, as soon as she looks stressed, stop do a few tricks walk away.

Slowly builds confidence, and I think if you just let her build confidence in a few scenarios she should generalize to many.

You want to keep her under threshold, so as soon as there's stress or arousal then that's how close you go, light happy voice and off we go over here for a bit of distance and looking at the scary thing. If she doesn't have LAT then google it and train it. It's probably my most used tool.

[dididog]

From the discussions I've had about Jakes issues until you can get to a behaviorist my advice would be to read lots and take a quiet , calm approach. Dogs have a flight or fight response. You would rather she chose flight and so try to avoid cutting off that option. I had to spend effort getting into jakes head that flight is an option. You don't want a scardy dog though so I guess it's flight to a safe distance and then turn and look at the scary thing, work out what it is and then have the freedom to approach and get some pleasant thing, treats or a pat or just leave calmly.

You could just start with a walk past the vet surgery, lots of fun and move on. Maybe next time a venture into the car park, do a bit of training and leave. When she's comfortable with that maybe the nurse could come outside and wave at you, next day a pat from a stranger. When just going to the car park is no issue approach the door, as soon as she looks stressed, stop do a few tricks walk away.

Slowly builds confidence, and I think if you just let her build confidence in a few scenarios she should generalize to many.

You want to keep her under threshold, so as soon as there's stress or arousal then that's how close you go, light happy voice and off we go over here for a bit of distance and looking at the scary thing. If she doesn't have LAT then google it and train it. It's probably my most used tool.

Thanks hankdog that's very helpful! We use LAT for her issues with lunging at birds which has helped a lot. I try using it when she's scared but I think we've been too far past her threshold for it to work so I will work on toning it down. It bugs me because in all the times she's reacted she's chosen flight first but everytime the person causing this response has ignored it/I've been unable to get away quickly and by that time since she's onlead and can't run any further she has then reacted vocally though still not confrontationally, she's always moving backward when she reacts and tries to go behind me.

[Steph M]

I don't know does her behaviour sound relatively benign/reasonable given the circumstances? I'm new to the whole having a dog thing so anything that deviates from how dogs are 'supposed' to act pops up like a red flag for me, especially because of her size and breeding.

Not to me. You've had a dog display aggression to people. If pushed or cornered, you have to wonder how far she'll go.

I think you need to start being far more careful and assertive with people who want to interact with her. I also would invest in a muzzle for her next trip to the vets.

If she was mine, I'd be concerned enough to seek some qualified professional advice about this. She's a big dog. If she escalates to biting, she'll do a lot of damage.

You will now also be on edge and she'll read it. I'd suggest you call in some help so you know what you're dealing with.

How much obedience training has she had?

Absolutely. She's a big dog. This could blow out very fast.

[persephone]

in all the times she's reacted she's chosen flight first but everytime the person causing this response has ignored it/I've been unable to get away quickly and by that time since she's onlead and can't run any further she has then reacted vocally though still not confrontationally, she's always moving backward when she reacts and tries to go behind me.

I hope you can a session booked very soon and get support for you both :)