Behaviour At The Vet/with Strangers

[dididog]

I was debating whether or not to post this but I've decided I'd like some insight/advice.

I had to take Didi to the vet yesterday to check her microchip number. Anyway the vet is a 30 second walk from our house and I got in and the (very small) waiting room was completely empty. The receptionist (I don't think she was a vet nurse) came out and I told her I needed Didi scanned so she went into a consult room and got the scanner.

Now Didi didn't know this lady from a bar of soap, all she said was "hi puppy" before leaning over Didi with the scanner which made Didi back up quickly behind me because she was unsure of either the strange lady/the weird thing in her hand. I asked her to wait a sec so I could put Didi in a sit and distract her with treats/pats but instead of waiting the receptionist just lunged quickly over Didi while she wasn't looking with the scanner to try and get a reading and Didi jumped back this time and barked at her (Didi usually doesn't bark outside of our property). I was pretty annoyed because you'd think someone working at a vet would know leaning over a dog that is scared of you is a no-no plus there were no other customers or phones ringing, it wouldn't have killed her to wait 30 seconds for me to calm Didi down. Didi has a pretty neutral/good association with the vet as we've only ever been in there as a puppy for vaccs or to weigh her and she always seems excited to go (hopefully that's not ruined now).

After this I had to go stand at the counter while we figured out what was wrong with the microchip. I had Didi standing in between me and the counter since my back was to the door and the waiting room is very small, I didn't want to have to worry about keeping her out of the way of someone coming in. While I was talking to the receptionist an old man walked in and since he was animal-less I didn't really worry about him.. that is until he just came up from behind and said 'hi doggy' and stuck his hand over Didi's head to pat her and Didi jumped back and barked/snarled at him quite angrily. As soon as he stepped back she went back to normal but I have never seen Didi react like that to any person/dog so was a bit upset afterward.

I tried to rationalise that she was on edge after the receptionist scared her and didn't know what the man was going to do to her but I must admit it has shaken my confidence about her and strangers.

Didi is relatively aloof with strangers. If we've invited them into our house she's all tail wags, kisses and belly rubs but out in public, especially on lead she's pretty picky with being affectionate and will usually ignore pats or step away from people once she's sniffed them. She's growled twice at strangers. Both were old women who were staring Didi in the eyes intensely and kept coming toward Didi even though she'd backed away to avoid them though it was only one short, grumble rather than the growl she uses when she thinks something's off. But at the same time I've seen Didi sprawl out at a man's feet for a belly rub on the train and almost fallen asleep when a guy gave her a head massage outside Coles so I don't think she is wary of or dislikes strangers, more just put off by confusing body language? I suppose I'm just trying to figure out where do you draw the line between a dog being aloof and a dog being anti social and therefore a worry? In the few instances Didi has growled/barked which are only the times mentioned above there's been an understandable reason why but obviously nobody appreciates a large dog barking/growling at them.

Unless somebody asks to pat her (which is rare) then I don't really let Didi interact with strangers onlead, normally because the people who don't ask are the ones who do things like boink her on the head or stare her in the eyes but I'm not sure if I should even let people who ask pat her anymore (even though a lot of the time she really likes those pats). She's fine being in public with heaps of strangers around, no worries, she's very relaxed and calm. It's just with actual interaction, that I am now a bit worried about. Not because I think she'd hurt someone, more because if she happened to bark/growl it would probably scare whoever it was directed at. Also I haven't corrected Didi in these circumstances, just stepped in between or asked for a 'look' to distract her because if she ever feels uncomfortable I'd rather her feel like she's allowed to vocalise this before she gets pushed too far.

I don't know does her behaviour sound relatively benign/reasonable given the circumstances? I'm new to the whole having a dog thing so anything that deviates from how dogs are 'supposed' to act pops up like a red flag for me, especially because of her size and breeding.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Terri S.

[hankdog]

I know there are certain fear periods in a pups development but not exactly sure when they are so she could be going through one of those. That being said a lot of people tend to lunge at dogs and I guess being tall she would be quite a tempting target since people don't have to lean down.

You coukd get a harness that says nervous dog, I have one that says no dogs and people do back off when they see it.

[Salukifan]

I don't know does her behaviour sound relatively benign/reasonable given the circumstances? I'm new to the whole having a dog thing so anything that deviates from how dogs are 'supposed' to act pops up like a red flag for me, especially because of her size and breeding.

Not to me. You've had a dog display aggression to people. If pushed or cornered, you have to wonder how far she'll go.

I think you need to start being far more careful and assertive with people who want to interact with her. I also would invest in a muzzle for her next trip to the vets.

If she was mine, I'd be concerned enough to seek some qualified professional advice about this. She's a big dog. If she escalates to biting, she'll do a lot of damage.

You will now also be on edge and she'll read it. I'd suggest you call in some help so you know what you're dealing with.

How much obedience training has she had?

Edited August 13, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[dididog]

I know there are certain fear periods in a pups development but not exactly sure when they are so she could be going through one of those. That being said a lot of people tend to lunge at dogs and I guess being tall she would be quite a tempting target since people don't have to lean down.

You coukd get a harness that says nervous dog, I have one that says no dogs and people do back off when they see it.

According to the K9Pro development calendar she's recently come to a period where they seem to have weaker nerve then previously noted/spook easier which makes sense as these incidences have only occurred in the last month. And yes unfortunately try as I might to prevent anyone who pleases from interacting with her, many people go for the walk-by pat attack because she's so tall. I had been thinking of getting a harness for 'no pats' and 'training' patches so that people stop doing this.

[Staffyluv]

I'm with HW, I would be calling in some help and if you are not doing obedience training, it certainly wouldn't hurt and it would help with confidence building.

By all means use 'training' patches on the lead and harness, hopefully that will stop the 'pat attack' because she is a tall dog and people think it is OK, when it clearly isn't.. The last thing you want is her biting the hand of someone going for a pat as they walk by..

[Diva]

It's not benign and it's not aloof. A truly aloof dog has a neutral attitude to strangers, not frightened just disinterested.

It may be being exacerbated by a developmental stage, but I dont know enough about fear periods to say how best to address it if so.

Worth getting some professional advice. If she is young it is a good opportunity to teach some alternative behaviours and check your own body language.

[dididog]

I don't know does her behaviour sound relatively benign/reasonable given the circumstances? I'm new to the whole having a dog thing so anything that deviates from how dogs are 'supposed' to act pops up like a red flag for me, especially because of her size and breeding.

Not to me. You've had a dog display aggression to people. If pushed or cornered, you have to wonder how far she'll go.

I think you need to start being far more careful and assertive with people who want to interact with her. I also would invest in a muzzle for her next trip to the vets.

If she was mine, I'd be concerned enough to seek some qualified professional advice about this. She's a big dog. If she escalates to biting, she'll do a lot of damage.

You will now also be on edge and she'll read it. I'd suggest you call in some help so you know what you're dealing with.

How much obedience training has she had?

I was afraid it may be serious enough to warrant intervention and you're right she's so big, I don't want to chance somebody getting hurt, even if she's been provoked to that point. Unfortunately I won't really have the funds for the right sort of help until next month. Could it just be a fear period thing though as it's all very recent and only when she's felt unsure/threatened? I will be managing it very closely until I can do something else, I am as I said pretty restrictive about people interacting with her but after yesterday I don't want to take chances. Hard to manage that though when somebody comes up behind you and pats your dog without asking. Hopefully the man from the vet will think twice before patting a strange, large dog in a vet's office without asking again.

Didi's had quite a bit of obedience training, went to puppy school and goes to obedience club nearly every week. She can reliably sit, drop, hold a rock solid stay in both, let go on command, wait for food/at doors/whenever else I ask her to. She sits at the lights and has a pretty good 'stop' and 'look' command, her recall is good and she knows to settle in a drop at my feet if I'm waiting or at a cafe etc. Loose lead walking is still a work in progress but at the moment very good unless in a new/highly stimulating environment.

I'm just a bit disheartened by this new behaviour because I put a lot of effort into socialisation and she hasn't had any negative experience with strangers to my knowledge. She's great with other dogs (even the rude ones) and will always walk away from confrontation. She's not fussed by a lot of things that spook other dogs and has been exposed to lots of different things, places and people so far and not been concerned, it just doesn't make sense

[dididog]

It's not benign and it's not aloof. A truly aloof dog has a neutral attitude to strangers, not frightened just disinterested.

It may be being exacerbated by a developmental stage, but I dont know enough about fear periods to say how best to address it if so.

Worth getting some professional advice. If she is young it is a good opportunity to teach some alternative behaviours and check your own body language.

Sorry, I worded it a bit wrong. To clarify I mean that normally, before this behaviour developed she was just aloof, couldn't really care if she got attention from a stranger, though with some people quite affectionate will mostly ignore pats/move away after a brief sniff and want to keep walking.

[Diva]

No problem, I was just responding to your bit about where the line is between aloof and antisocial.

[Dogsfevr]

When i started in dogs over 30 yrs ago the dog there was never this "fear period stuff" .The last 10 years i have heard it used as an excuse or a reason for so many things & its like okay they have reached that age its okay it has happened .

I would be seeking better help given her reaction ,i wouldn't be forcing anything until you now what the deal is .

I would also inform the clinic of what happened ,personally i have experienced to many vet nurses who have no clue how to deal with dogs or how to approach or simply respect what the owner says or asks for ,granted not everyone knows how to handle there pets but staff should be better prepared to educate owners .

It doesn't take long to come & ask the owners to hold there dog in a stand position with control of the head whilst they run the scanner over .

As for people who insist on patting on the head that will be a life long battle but education is your key .

[dididog]

On that note, does anybody have a recommendation for behaviorists in or near Melbourne?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

based on what my dog is doing at the moment...

she's some sort of herding dog mix mostly cattle dog and a very fast learner...

So your dog was rightfully upset by some strange woman coming at her with a novel (scary) device...

And then you ask for time to sort your dog out, but lady does not listen and repeats her upsetting action - and if you're like me - you and the dog are now upset...

Dog scolds rude woman, tells her to back off.

This is where it gets really really tricky for me and my dog. Because if I'd gotten in and scolded woman before my dog could - my dog would join in and help with the scolding... so it doesn't really help. The best I can do is block the rude woman (or rude approaching dog) and encourage my dog to think about other things - ie ask her for a whole bunch of tricks she knows well and knows gets her food or something.

But reward with ear rubs and praise - because otherwise I risk pairing (back chaining) the scolding behaviour with the tricks and the food. Ie dog works out that their cue for me to give them food is to act grumpy then do trickts. Not good.

The others are right - if you don't work out how to get your dog on a more acceptable path - it can escalate. Ie dog works out to get what it wants (food or space) it acts scary-grumpy and it gets what it wants. And it's worse if the dog thinks it is helping (protect) you.

For my evil hound - timing is everything. If I get it wrong - she's training me - not the other way round. So at the moment I'm working very hard to prevent unhappy encounters with dogs or people, and I give her loads of "good dog" praise for remaining calm and being polite (no matter what else is going on).

And sometimes I just have to avoid the encounter all together - she will never get to greet the lawnmower man again. I can't train him and she finds him WAAAYYY too exciting and there's not enough room to work distance.

[The Spotted Devil]

On that note, does anybody have a recommendation for behaviorists in or near Melbourne?

DOLer Cosmolo aka Underdog Training :)

[huski]

When i started in dogs over 30 yrs ago the dog there was never this "fear period stuff" .The last 10 years i have heard it used as an excuse or a reason for so many things & its like okay they have reached that age its okay it has happened .

Understanding development phases in puppies isn't about being permissive and excusing away behaviour. It's important to understand how puppies learn and the best phases to teach certain behaviours and expose them to new environments and experiences. It's not ok for pups to display undesirable behaviour but it is relevant and important to recognise different learning phases.

[dididog]

On that note, does anybody have a recommendation for behaviorists in or near Melbourne?

DOLer Cosmolo aka Underdog Training :)

Thanks! I already had Underdog in mind, looked at the website again and I am pretty sold. It's probably dumb but I feel like I've let Didi down and done something wrong, I can't understand why this is happening, kind of a kick in the teeth when I've put so much work into her hopefully a consult can shed some light.

[huski]

On that note, does anybody have a recommendation for behaviorists in or near Melbourne?

DOLer Cosmolo aka Underdog Training :)

Thanks! I already had Underdog in mind, looked at the website again and I am pretty sold. It's probably dumb but I feel like I've let Didi down and done something wrong, I can't understand why this is happening, kind of a kick in the teeth when I've put so much work into her hopefully a consult can shed some light.

Don't feel bad Terri, you are responsible for recognising a potential problem and doing something about it before it could get out of hand.

[The Spotted Devil]

On that note, does anybody have a recommendation for behaviorists in or near Melbourne?

DOLer Cosmolo aka Underdog Training :)

Thanks! I already had Underdog in mind, looked at the website again and I am pretty sold. It's probably dumb but I feel like I've let Didi down and done something wrong, I can't understand why this is happening, kind of a kick in the teeth when I've put so much work into her hopefully a consult can shed some light.

Fear periods are difficult to predict and vary a lot. Add genetics to the story and things can go pear shaped. The worst thing you can do is beat yourself up :) i have made sooooo many mistakes - I don't make them again with the next pup but I manage to make new ones! Perhaps try and walk her really early or late in the day. Drive somewhere quiet to avoid the idiots. I train my ESS in gumboots in the foulest of weather - it's just brilliant having all the grounds to ourselves.

[VizslaMomma]

You mentioned 3 older people caused Didi to react.

Did she ever have hassles with them before you adopted her?

[dididog]

Thanks, I know in the big picture I'm doing the right thing by Didi, it is her who will ultimately pay the price if she hurts somebody. I'd much rather feel a bit embarrassed now than possibly deal with something that terrible later on.

Re genetics I'm assuming Didi is the result of someone's cocktail mix to achieve a 'bull arab' type so who knows what went in there. I have met her mother and she is lovely and very sweet and trusting but it seems there may be a temperament issue with some of the puppies? (one was recently returned to the rescue and another is seeking help for issues with greeting guests) though that is speculative and could just be down to training or lack thereof with those puppies.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I find microchip scanners can make the most friendly, rock solid dogs very wary.

I generally approach side-on and get them chewing on some liver before I scan.

If you think about it, the body language attached to the scanner is all wrong for a dog anyway, and usually this is done routinely when the dog is ON the table and the vet is at the dog's side, not when the person is above the dog and leaning over them.

What people also don't learn, is that scanners will read from 10-20cms away and you can pick it up by placing it below the dog's shoulder blades if you know where the transponder actually is and it's pointed at the right angle. :)

I'm not saying you shouldn't seek advice, though.